Why so few superhero rpgs?

[Telengard]

Aren't RPG's more about taking your average-joe retard and turning him into awesome-o mach 10? Superhero narrative seems to detract from that whole prerogative.

You could say exactly the same thing about Star Trek and spy movies yet it didn't stop Bioware and Obsidion from making ME and AP.

To dig into the issue even deeper, since we are discussing superheroes. There's the regular joe, the superman, and the supra-man. A superman is a human in ideal form. A supra-man is an individual with abilities no human is capable of. So, in standard RPGs, the hero goes from being a regular joe to being a superman, but while most people in the world may not be capable of being supermen, what he achieves is still technically achievable within the boundaries of normal humanity - at least under the logic of that world. Or to put it in more context, the hero goes from being a recruit to a grizzled, steely-eyed combat veteran, but never becomes a demi-god.

In superhero stories, on the other hand, the hero goes through a transformative rebirth (often a "death" and then rebirth), re-emerging as a demi-god, having powers that no normal human is capable of.

What is AP (i assume ME is mass effect which is much closer to action than to RPG to begin with, and story-wise and RPG-gameplay-wise it's p shit anyway.

Alpha Protocol. A CYOA shooter with RPG elements. It's kind of the CYOA fans' masturbatory game.

 

[Norfleet]

I like City of Heroes, but essentially they dont have CP. WHen chars level up (to invest more skills) enemies also level up. You dont feel it's progress.

Isn't that what happens in EVERY RPG?

Deus Ex had a great superhero feel to it, and that might be why I can completely overlook how easy the combat gets, whilst the significantly harder combat of DE:HR felt too easy. By the time you get a few abilities, you're established as being 2, maybe 3 of a kind, and all the enemies react that way - all their combat 'taunts' are them shitting themselves about having to go up against this goddamn nano tech supesoldier (come to think of it, the slow mo 'fuuuuuuccckkkk' and 'he's too fast! I can't see him!', had a similar effect in FEAR).

And then when you finally get to fight Simons it opens with a baddass-off that's like something straight out of a superhero comic.

And DX would be a superhero game if not for one critical shortcoming: Nobody is wearing their underwear on the outside.

 

[buzz]

Own them both. But FF doesn't have Fly. It has Hover. The artificial ceiling is so low that you don't get Fly. With real Fly, you would be able to travel above all ranged combatants. The ability to fly is one of the greatest positional advantages in combat (in real life). It's the ability to sit in a bell tower with a sniper rifle EVERYWHERE in the world. Picture fighting a hundred ground combatants with guns. A dome represents the reach of each gun, so lots of overlap. But a flyer can fly to the tippy-top of one person's dome and engage just one, remaining out of reach of the other 99, and so kill them all one at a time. He's still engaged in combat, killing them all, but does so from positional advantage. The only way to stop an actual flyer from taking positional advantage is to get in the sky with him. FF puts all flyers in range of ground combatants at all times by artificially constraining the ability to fly to just above ground level.

do you even play RPGs for fuck's sakes!??!?!

Spoiler

Most of them barely get above ground level or not even that.

About 3 quarters of all of your arguments can be dismissed on the notion that normal, run of the mill RPGs do it as well. Stop posting already.

 

[kris]

Own them both. But FF doesn't have Fly. It has Hover. The artificial ceiling is so low that you don't get Fly. With real Fly, you would be able to travel above all ranged combatants. The ability to fly is one of the greatest positional advantages in combat (in real life). It's the ability to sit in a bell tower with a sniper rifle EVERYWHERE in the world. Picture fighting a hundred ground combatants with guns. A dome represents the reach of each gun, so lots of overlap. But a flyer can fly to the tippy-top of one person's dome and engage just one, remaining out of reach of the other 99, and so kill them all one at a time. He's still engaged in combat, killing them all, but does so from positional advantage. The only way to stop an actual flyer from taking positional advantage is to get in the sky with him. FF puts all flyers in range of ground combatants at all times by artificially constraining the ability to fly to just above ground level.

EDIT: And woe betide you if you go with another RPG convention and let the flyer choose his own weapon. Then he can simply choose the longest ranged weapon in the game and shoot at the ground combatants while remaining forever out of their reach.

Your complaint goes much more into comics or a what-if-someone-could-fly-for-realz. Because if we talk about a RPG game then it is very easy to simulate this in ways so that your implied problem don't exist. I would also reckon that it isn't ideal for aim to shoot from a flying position. If we have one guy on ground and one in the air, both with sniper rifles, then I would put my money on the ground. You know the positional advantage isn't as great as you think. Flying just puts you outside melee as long as you fly high enough, but you are also more exposed than a sniper in a clock tower. Flying is mostly just a good defensive and movement ability. Not even your stupid "meta-game" example with a 100 gunmen shooting at someone they can't reach while he picks them out. That would only happen as an exploit in a poorly designed game in possibly one encounter. Okay, it would not even happen in a game as bullets are not likely to have a upper limit altitude wise.

I get the feeling you decided something should be a problem and when people disagree with you you just keep on arguing.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

@Telengard

Funny how ability to fly was never overpowered in superhero comics and people like Angel were never sniping people from miles away. Neither did Green Lantern or Hawkman or Hawkgirl or Banshee or Vulture.

As for super-supra mumbo-jumbe like I've said there already is a superhero comic where hero goes from being just above normal human to a God and it's called Dragon Ball, everyone has seen it, and most people liked it. There are also countless other shounen manga that fallow that pattern. Also, not everything in a superhero RPG has to be 100% emulation of the comic books. You can have hero getting stronger through time in an RPG going from just above human to a god because why the fuck not. Blaster mages didn't exist before they appeared in DnD for example. Sure, they had tricks but something like a fireball spamming wizard didn't exist.

Alpha Protocol. A CYOA shooter with RPG elements. It's kind of the CYOA fans' masturbatory game.

If you hadn't realized the thread is called "why are there so few superhero RPGs" not "why are there so few superhero games that also fit Telengard's narrow definition of an RPG".

 

[Norfleet]

But a flyer can fly to the tippy-top of one person's dome and engage just one, remaining out of reach of the other 99, and so kill them all one at a time. He's still engaged in combat, killing them all, but does so from positional advantage. The only way to stop an actual flyer from taking positional advantage is to get in the sky with him. FF puts all flyers in range of ground combatants at all times by artificially constraining the ability to fly to just above ground level.

Alternatively, you can just shoot him out of the sky with a shotgun. He's totally exposed and has no cover at all, like some kind of giant flying skeet. People have lots of practice doing this. PULL!

On stop of that, the altitude limit on superhero flying is entirely realistic. Firstly, unless your super-flying abilities also include super-breathing abilities, you can't fly too high or you will run out of air. Secondly, you ARE sort of constrained to low-altitude flight, because otherwise you are in the FAA's territory, and superheroes, being the good guys, do not want to incur the wrath of government agencies.

EDIT: And woe betide you if you go with another RPG convention and let the flyer choose his own weapon. Then he can simply choose the longest ranged weapon in the game and shoot at the ground combatants while remaining forever out of their reach.

So, now you have a flying guy with a sniper rifle. His accuracy is wretched because flying is NOT a stable platform from which to fire, and to hit the upper limits of range where altitude will prevent a ground enemy (with better accuracy) from firing back at him, his CTH is practically zilch, due to the extreme range combined with poor shooting platform. There's a reason people don't generally try to snipe from helicopters, because flying is not a very good platform from which to snipe.

 

[laclongquan]

Alternatively, you can just shoot him out of the sky with a shotgun. He's totally exposed and has no cover at all, like some kind of giant flying skeet. People have lots of practice doing this. PULL!

:picard: This is combat environment we are talking about, not range shooting~ And SHOTGUN? FFS.

Sniper Rifle? Bah~ Fuck that shit! My own choice would be a automatic belt fed magazine grenade launcher and walk my fire all over the place. A flying grenadier is the very definition of close air support, thus are covered against multitude of sins~

Failing that, a medium machinegun is fine. THough it's too fiddly compared to the wholesale slaughter above~

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Alternatively, you can just shoot him out of the sky with a shotgun. He's totally exposed and has no cover at all, like some kind of giant flying skeet. People have lots of practice doing this. PULL!

:picard: This is combat environment we are talking about, not range shooting~ And SHOTGUN? FFS.

Sniper Rifle? Bah~ Fuck that shit! My own choice would be a automatic belt fed magazine grenade launcher and walk my fire all over the place. A flying grenadier is the very definition of close air support, thus are covered against multitude of sins~

Failing that, a medium machinegun is fine. THough it's too fiddly compared to the wholesale slaughter above~

Raining grenades at your enemies would be counter-productive to almost every superhero group out there. If your target is humanlike in which case you don't want to shoot him with grenades because that would mean killing him. If you are 100% sure that your barrage won't kill him your grenades won't be very useful.

 

[laclongquan]

Ever heard of those very neat things called flashbang grenades? It blind you and deafen you. Or stun grenades? or gas grenades... They wont kill you but you wish you would die, because three of them rain on your position. Like hail, mang, like hail.

Superhero creed may decree no killing but that's it. You dont have to be stupid about it the way a lot of them are.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Ever heard of those very neat things called flashbang grenades? It blind you and deafen you. Or stun grenades? or gas grenades... They wont kill you but you wish you would die, because three of them rain on your position. Like hail, mang, like hail.

Superhero creed may decree no killing but that's it. You dont have to be stupid about it the way a lot of them are.

There is no reason to not put it in the game as it wouldn't give player unfair advantage. Even if the flier was able to accurately shoot flashbangs at correct spots while being high enough to be safe from gun wielding enemies. Considering the shit mages pull in RPGs on daily basis.

PS: Don't give me all that "have you heard of non-lethal" grenade since you've said that you want to "walk your fire all over the place" not walk your gas or light or whatever.

 

[laclongquan]

Have you ever walk a line of blooms across the map? The bloom could be a nuclear mushroom, or just a column of smoke. Immaterial, because walking your fire across the map is fun in itself. If the enemies are not dead due to nonlethal rounds you are pumping out, it's a good excuse to pump more of it. With nonlethals, THere's no such thing as OVERKILL, there's only OPEN FIRE, and I NEED MORE RELOADS~

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Eh? I believe it's correct. Raining flashbangs wouldn't be OP so you devs can put it in their games.

 

[Norfleet]

Sniper Rifle? Bah~ Fuck that shit! My own choice would be a automatic belt fed magazine grenade launcher and walk my fire all over the place. A flying grenadier is the very definition of close air support, thus are covered against multitude of sins~

Failing that, a medium machinegun is fine. THough it's too fiddly compared to the wholesale slaughter above~

Wait, are you supposed to be a superHERO or a superVILLAIN?

Raining grenades at your enemies would be counter-productive to almost every superhero group out there. If your target is humanlike in which case you don't want to shoot him with grenades because that would mean killing him. If you are 100% sure that your barrage won't kill him your grenades won't be very useful.

If you're raining grenades from an altitude that puts you out of reach of ground fire, that IS lethal, and not exactly controlled, either. Superheroes may or may not kill their enemies, but they sure as hell don't kill bystanders. It doesn't matter if the grenades themselves are lethal or not (even nonlethal grenades can actually have deadly effects, which is why they term them "less lethal" rather than "nonlethal"), the point is that you're throwing heavy objects from way up, and this alone is lethal, and on top of that, extremely inaccurate.

And then there's still that pesky business with the FAA...once you're flying high enough that you are FLYING, you're in the FAA's turf.

I have a better question, anyway. Why aren't there any superVILLAIN games? Off the top of my head, I can only think of ONE such game.

 

[FuriousGamer87]

I have a better question, anyway. Why aren't there any superVILLAIN games? Off the top of my head, I can only think of ONE such game.

Postal series and the soon-to-come Hatred comes to mind.

 

[Norfleet]

There isn't really anything supervillanous about those characters, though. They're just ordinary guys who snap and go, well, postal. In fact, going postal is entirely optional in Postal 2, you can just play through the mundane inanities without ever once going berserk. They don't have some grand plan to hold the world ransom for...ONE MILLION DOLLARS, or anything like that.

Supervillains are way more interesting than superheroes, anyway. To be a superhero requires that you have some kind of exceptional power not granted to others. You have to be an alien mutated, or magical, or at least somehow obscenely rich. Supervillainy doesn't require that you have any powers, only the ambition and will to HOLD THE WORLD RANSOM FOR...ONE MILLION DOLLARS. As such, supervillainy is purely meritocratic.

 

[laclongquan]

Norfleet Are you playing Superhero games or SuperLawabidingCitizen game? Because Superhero is contrary to the concept of Law Abiding. SH, in essence, is the guy total fed up with authorities, doesnt trust authorities to do their job, and take the laws into his own hands.

So once being a superhero, FAA is the least of your worries. Ignore them.

 

[Archibald]

Because Superhero is contrary to the concept of Law Abiding. SH, in essence, is the guy total fed up with authorities, doesnt trust authorities to do their job, and take the laws into his own hands.

That depends entirely on archetype. Some heroes think that authorities are corrupt and take matters in their own hands, others just want to help police with things that they can't handle themselves. But usually there are some storyline where hero either gets on good terms with someone on authority (like Batman with Gordon) or is adored by pretty much everyone as hero (like Superman for example).

 

[Xathrodox86]

For once, I'd like a RPG where you are pathetically weak

Yeah, I yearn for that kind of game. No chosen one bullshit, no being a child of the Gods, no super speshul snowflake syndrome. You start as a nobody and end up as a slightly buffed nobody.

So basically Age of the Cadence?

Never heard of it. Is it good?

Yeah, it's called Age of Decadence by people who can spell.

That's why Google search didn't produced any results.

 

[Keldryn]

There was this superhero RPG on the SNES, many years ago:

Wait, that's not what you're asking for?

 

[laclongquan]

That's bull Archibald, Total bull~ There might be superhero like you said, but that kind of SH doesnt get read or popular among the true SH readers. They only want to read about a SH who flaunt the laws.

 

[Siveon]

That's bull Archibald, Total bull~ There might be superhero like you said, but that kind of SH doesnt get read or popular among the true SH readers. They only want to read about a SH who flaunt the laws.

 

[Norfleet]

Norfleet Are you playing Superhero games or SuperLawabidingCitizen game? Because Superhero is contrary to the concept of Law Abiding. SH, in essence, is the guy total fed up with authorities, doesnt trust authorities to do their job, and take the laws into his own hands.

So once being a superhero, FAA is the least of your worries. Ignore them.

Even being a rogue vigilante tends to involve flying below the radar, in this case literally.

 

[Mustawd]

And then there's still that pesky business with the FAA...once you're flying high enough that you are FLYING, you're in the FAA's turf.

Well, the FAA doesn't need to be something that's part of the SH's universe. Just like a SH's taxe returns, political views, sexuality, etc. These are, at the end of the day, stories of fantastical individuals. 100% realism in every facet of the world need not apply. Of course, you can include things like FAA regulations if you want. It's just not necessary.

No one ever bats an eye when there's zero collateral damage (in terms of people killed) when a superhero or a villain fight. No insurance claims adjuster is calling/emailing a SH for all the damage caused by the fight. And on and on and on.

I have a better question, anyway. Why aren't there any superVILLAIN games? Off the top of my head, I can only think of ONE such game.

Not sure about games on villains in a SH universe specifically. But the "feels good to be bad" games have been done before. You have your Dungeon Keeper games for example..one of the Wizardys had the villain as the main character (Wiz 4?). But overall, SH's are usually the main focus of the story with the SV being the foil. That's like asking why an RPG couldn't be made about a shopkeeper in an RPG (like Recettear).

Easy answer is devs think more people want to be the good guy vs the bad guy. Dunno. I enjoy being bad myself as long as it's abstract enough (Mafia, GTA games, etc.). I mean how much crap would a dev team get if they made a game about being Hitler and killing Jews? Dude is the closest thing to a real supervillian we have.

EDIT: Ugh, did I just use a Hitler/jews reference? Fox news must be on or something...

 

[Lhynn]

I like City of Heroes, but essentially they dont have CP. WHen chars level up (to invest more skills) enemies also level up. You dont feel it's progress.

City of heroes didnt have level scaling, it had a form of reverse level scaling that was quite nice and sort of fitting with the theme of the game.

Norfleet there was city of villains.

 

[CyberWhale]

Not sure about a superheroes and RPGs, but judging from laclongquan's and Telengard's posts supertards and forums certainly do go hand in hand with each other.