why the hate on BG3

[Swen]

Everything has already been said and done.

If you loved Divinity Original Sin, than Baldur's Gate 3 will be the best game evar. And since many liked DOS, I am sure BG 3 will win many awards.

Otherwise seek your entertainment elsewhere, which I will do.

What is there more to say? I dunno.

Autists here want to be "outraged" about x product, nothing more.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Why the hate? Why does it even have the D&D ip? And that succubus has a mustache.

 

[Frozen]

Because its shit. BG story is over. Why not make another story in forgotten realms? Cheap recognition cash grab.

And I played Divinity OS already. If I wanted to play that game, I would play it again.

Not to mention that all characters look like pride month freaks and Larian is now the most woke gaming company out there.

Fuck them.

 

[Modron]

Why the hate? Why does it even have the D&D ip? And that succubus has a mustache.

Keighn isn't used to seeing chicks who still have their teeth.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I don’t hate it, but I’m burned out on Tolkienesque fantasy so it doesn’t attract my interest.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

TBF, that pic isn’t the best quality.

 

[bandersnatch]

Why the hate? One simple reason... WOKE. Woke devs forcing their woke ideology down my throat and telling me I should enjoy it.

 

[Fedora Master]

I don’t hate it, but I’m burned out on Tolkienesque fantasy so it doesn’t attract my interest.

Everything would be much better if Forgotten Realms was "Tolkienesque".
It's more like "California during Pride Month" now.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I don’t hate it, but I’m burned out on Tolkienesque fantasy so it doesn’t attract my interest.

Everything would be much better if Forgotten Realms was "Tolkienesque".
It's more like "California during Pride Month" now.

To a degree, I guess. Tolkien had decent worldbuilding and writing, whereas all the imitators are incoherent nonsense. Especially D&D and its decades of accumulated self-referential cruft.

 

[cretin]

If you loved Divinity Original Sin, than Baldur's Gate 3 will be the best game evar. And since many liked DOS, I am sure BG 3 will win many awards.

What is there more to say? I dunno.

I loved DOS2 combat and think BG3 combat is going to be fucking dull by comparison. Mostly the martials. Whoever decided that martials should just autoattack instead of doing interesting shit like spellcasters should be taken out back and shot. 4E actually made a huge step forward in this area, then they went backwards for 5E and martials can't do anything anymore.

I know BG3 got real brave and added weapon maneuvers. That's great! But it's still no DOS2 melee badassery.

I don't remember any melee "badassery" in dos2 I just remember all builds eventually converging in on everyone teleporting over the battlefield like Dragonball z characters and leaving trails of fire/shit

 

[Louis_Cypher]

burned out on Tolkienesque fantasy

How can anyone be burned out on Tolkienesque fantasy? There aren't any good ones outside Tolkien. Nobody has written one competently since 1954. Thus there is no abundance of material to be burned out by. It's like people complaining in another thread about "good vs evil" plots, righteous paladins, when nobody has written such a game competently and without irony in 20+ years. What are they actually referring to? Popular caricatures.

Faeruns, Azeroths and Tamriels are not Tolkienesque.

• - Middle-Earth looks downright post-apocalyptic compared to all the bustling civilizations in most settings.
• - Middle-Earth is sacred in character, where most setting are deeply profane, or ironic.
• - Middle-Earth is actually medieval in mentality, where most are modernist.

 

[Butter]

There's a deeply spiritual nature to Tolkien's writing that apparently goes over the heads of most people. They notice only the superficial aspects of humans, dwarves, elves, and orcs. The Lord of the Rings is about resisting the greed, corruption, and wickedness that surrounds us everywhere we go, remaining pure of heart when everyone is trying to drag you down to their level. None of the shamelessly derivative works even scratch the surface of this idea.

 

[Shin]

At sunday school the priest would often take his shlong out while reading from Narnia. It was our little secret. But that's also a very profound spiritual book and made me feel close to jesus.

 

[Harthwain]

The Lord of the Rings is about resisting the greed, corruption, and wickedness that surrounds us everywhere we go, remaining pure of heart when everyone is trying to drag you down to their level. None of the shamelessly derivative works even scratch the surface of this idea.

That's because the whole idea is contained within the One Ring and the derivative works don't have it. They just go for the classic "Dwarves are greedy, humans tend to be corrupt and obviously evil people are wicked" approach.

Middle-Earth looks downright post-apocalyptic compared to all the bustling civilizations in most settings.

I wouldn't agree with that. Middle-Earth has longer history than The War of the Ring. It is merely the high of the conflict that was dragging on for many years (and not the first conflict, either). The Age of Men is past its glory, but not yet at the point to call it "post-apocalyptic". Of course, the defeat of the West would mean the rise of The Age of Orcs, but with the destruction of The One Ring The Age of Men has been revitalized.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

There's a deeply spiritual nature to Tolkien's writing that apparently goes over the heads of most people. They notice only the superficial aspects of humans, dwarves, elves, and orcs. The Lord of the Rings is about resisting the greed, corruption, and wickedness that surrounds us everywhere we go, remaining pure of heart when everyone is trying to drag you down to their level. None of the shamelessly derivative works even scratch the surface of this idea.

Absolutely.

The people of the past conceived of the world as a descending line of the ages, from an age of purity, to one where the truth was more obscured by the forces of darkness. Wherin heroes could rediscover the metaphysical force that had powered the Golden Age, and bring it to the people anew. Totally the opposite conception of the progressive one of a constant incline. Modernism is the abberation; most of the world still believes this.

A lot of fantasy these days is just modernism wearing a medieval skinsuit. The whole point was to enter a different world, where people thought differently to you, and actually doing their alien perspective justice. So medieval concepts like Golden Ages of purity were given their due unironically. They would even try to mimic speech patterns of Middle English to aid the feeling of another time. Developers were once capable of putting aside their own conceptions momentarily. Now social assumptions of today are current in all epochs. Fantasy without a spiritual perspective of some sort is pointless. A modernist fantasy, with valley girl slang, is beyond pointless.

Real fantasy succeeds in entering a different time mentally, then doing it's alien assumptions their own highest justice. It's not meant to be a critique. Just to use one very small example of the difference in mindset, take labour and chores. Medieval people had to find ways to enjoy their work. To make it spiritual. They wouldn't have survived if not. So finding the sacred in everyday life would have been essential. Many religions see such tasks as having teaching value. However modernists, unable to conceive of life in a different mental paradigm, may write their fantasy to be full of toil, social ill, injustice, unable to give the overall conception of another way of life, it's due, because their conception is that 'the past' is an inferior point on a graph.

Do you ever see a JRPG in which the people of a town look unhappy doing essential chores? It doesn't matter if this is a realistic commentary on 1600s Japan; it's a fantasy. Shinto emphaises ritual purity and cleanliness, as akin to cultivating cleanliness of spirit. Zen Buddhism emphasises mindful labour as a potentially sacred insight into the nature of things. On the other hand, you see morbid views of medieval life everywhere in Western RPGs. "Ooooh, I've got the pox, I'm bleeding out my arse, I have sores exuding puss, but I've gotta fuck three more smelly clients today to meet my rent." People think this is clever, like a fool who loves their own stink, but it's just dragging attitudes away from higher meaning, into the dumb and the profane.

So you decide to create a fantasy setting in which people worship 12 pagan gods, each symbolising virtues, say Law, Justice, Bravery, etc. Their overall philosophy is a fantasy analogue of Platonism. They take their devotions to Law, Justice, Bravery, Cleanliness, Honesty, Compassion, seriously. Then what is the highest good that could come about in such a society? What would it's towns look like? Assume good people existed, who really followed it's values. Would they create slum towns covered in shit? What form would their enemy take? If they are dying out, what causes their metaphysical "fall"? What should the highest ruins tell people of the past? If instead, everything is crooked, shit-covered, to begin with, what is the point? Critiques are antithetical to fantasy, the whole point of the genre is spiritual.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

burned out on Tolkienesque fantasy

How can anyone be burned out on Tolkienesque fantasy? There aren't any good ones outside Tolkien. Nobody has written one competently since 1954. Thus there is no abundance of material to be burned out by. It's like people complaining in another thread about "good vs evil" plots, righteous paladins, when nobody has written such a game competently and without irony in 20+ years. What are they actually referring to? Popular caricatures.

Faeruns, Azeroths and Tamriels are not Tolkienesque.

• - Middle-Earth looks downright post-apocalyptic compared to all the bustling civilizations in most settings.
• - Middle-Earth is sacred in character, where most setting are deeply profane, or ironic.
• - Middle-Earth is actually medieval in mentality, where most are modernist.

Yes, there aren't any good ones outside Tolkien. That's exactly why I'm burned out.

Let me rephrase it: I'm burned out on D&D-esque fantasy. I want something with spiritualism and occultism, something that grounds the fantasy in our historical culture rather than self-referential incoherence. I've been reading up on Hermeticism and its role in the development of science, and it's absolutely fascinating. I want to see a Western equivalent of the Qi Cultivation genre that uses the Western mystery traditions as its basis.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

There's a deeply spiritual nature to Tolkien's writing that apparently goes over the heads of most people. They notice only the superficial aspects of humans, dwarves, elves, and orcs. The Lord of the Rings is about resisting the greed, corruption, and wickedness that surrounds us everywhere we go, remaining pure of heart when everyone is trying to drag you down to their level. None of the shamelessly derivative works even scratch the surface of this idea.

Absolutely.

The people of the past conceived of the world as a descending line of the ages, from an age of purity, to one where the truth was more obscured by the forces of darkness. Wherin heroes could rediscover the metaphysical force that had powered the Golden Age, and bring it to the people anew. Totally the opposite conception of the progressive one of a constant incline. Modernism is the abberation; most of the world still believes this.

A lot of fantasy these days is just modernism wearing a medieval skinsuit. The whole point was to enter a different world, where people thought differently to you, and actually doing their alien perspective justice. So medieval concepts like Golden Ages of purity were given their due unironically. They would even try to mimic speech patterns of Middle English to aid the feeling of another time. Developers were once capable of putting aside their own conceptions momentarily. Now social assumptions of today are current in all epochs. Fantasy without a spiritual perspective of some sort is pointless. A modernist fantasy, with valley girl slang, is beyond pointless.

Real fantasy succeeds in entering a different time mentally, then doing it's alien assumptions their own highest justice. It's not meant to be a critique. Just to use one very small example of the difference in mindset, take labour and chores. Medieval people had to find ways to enjoy their work. To make it spiritual. They wouldn't have survived if not. So finding the sacred in everyday life would have been essential. Many religions see such tasks as having teaching value. However modernists, unable to conceive of life in a different mental paradigm, may write their fantasy to be full of toil, social ill, injustice, unable to give the overall conception of another way of life, it's due, because their conception is that 'the past' is an inferior point on a graph.

Do you ever see a JRPG in which the people of a town look unhappy doing essential chores? It doesn't matter if this is a realistic commentary on 1600s Japan; it's a fantasy. Shinto emphaises ritual purity and cleanliness, as akin to cultivating cleanliness of spirit. Zen Buddhism emphasises mindful labour as a potentially sacred insight into the nature of things. On the other hand, you see morbid views of medieval life everywhere in Western RPGs. "Ooooh, I've got the pox, I'm bleeding out my arse, I have sores exuding puss, but I've gotta fuck three more smelly clients today to meet my rent." People think this is clever, like a fool who loves their own stink, but it's just dragging attitudes away from higher meaning, into the dumb and the profane.

So you decide to create a fantasy setting in which people worship 12 pagan gods, each symbolising virtues, say Law, Justice, Bravery, etc. Their overall philosophy is a fantasy analogue of Platonism. They take their devotions to Law, Justice, Bravery, Cleanliness, Honesty, Compassion, seriously. Then what is the highest good that could come about in such a society? What would it's towns look like? Assume good people existed, who really followed it's values. Would they create slum towns covered in shit? What form would their enemy take? If they are dying out, what causes their metaphysical "fall"? What should the highest ruins tell people of the past? If instead, everything is crooked, shit-covered, to begin with, what is the point? Critiques are antithetical to fantasy, the whole point of the genre is spiritual.

Sweeping is great enjoyment like raking. Sweep-o-holic.

 

[MerchantKing]

There's a deeply spiritual nature to Tolkien's writing that apparently goes over the heads of most people. They notice only the superficial aspects of humans, dwarves, elves, and orcs. The Lord of the Rings is about resisting the greed, corruption, and wickedness that surrounds us everywhere we go, remaining pure of heart when everyone is trying to drag you down to their level. None of the shamelessly derivative works even scratch the surface of this idea.

Absolutely.

The people of the past conceived of the world as a descending line of the ages, from an age of purity, to one where the truth was more obscured by the forces of darkness. Wherin heroes could rediscover the metaphysical force that had powered the Golden Age, and bring it to the people anew. Totally the opposite conception of the progressive one of a constant incline. Modernism is the abberation; most of the world still believes this.

A lot of fantasy these days is just modernism wearing a medieval skinsuit. The whole point was to enter a different world, where people thought differently to you, and actually doing their alien perspective justice. So medieval concepts like Golden Ages of purity were given their due unironically. They would even try to mimic speech patterns of Middle English to aid the feeling of another time. Developers were once capable of putting aside their own conceptions momentarily. Now social assumptions of today are current in all epochs. Fantasy without a spiritual perspective of some sort is pointless. A modernist fantasy, with valley girl slang, is beyond pointless.

Real fantasy succeeds in entering a different time mentally, then doing it's alien assumptions their own highest justice. It's not meant to be a critique. Just to use one very small example of the difference in mindset, take labour and chores. Medieval people had to find ways to enjoy their work. To make it spiritual. They wouldn't have survived if not. So finding the sacred in everyday life would have been essential. Many religions see such tasks as having teaching value. However modernists, unable to conceive of life in a different mental paradigm, may write their fantasy to be full of toil, social ill, injustice, unable to give the overall conception of another way of life, it's due, because their conception is that 'the past' is an inferior point on a graph.

Do you ever see a JRPG in which the people of a town look unhappy doing essential chores? It doesn't matter if this is a realistic commentary on 1600s Japan; it's a fantasy. Shinto emphaises ritual purity and cleanliness, as akin to cultivating cleanliness of spirit. Zen Buddhism emphasises mindful labour as a potentially sacred insight into the nature of things. On the other hand, you see morbid views of medieval life everywhere in Western RPGs. "Ooooh, I've got the pox, I'm bleeding out my arse, I have sores exuding puss, but I've gotta fuck three more smelly clients today to meet my rent." People think this is clever, like a fool who loves their own stink, but it's just dragging attitudes away from higher meaning, into the dumb and the profane.

So you decide to create a fantasy setting in which people worship 12 pagan gods, each symbolising virtues, say Law, Justice, Bravery, etc. Their overall philosophy is a fantasy analogue of Platonism. They take their devotions to Law, Justice, Bravery, Cleanliness, Honesty, Compassion, seriously. Then what is the highest good that could come about in such a society? What would it's towns look like? Assume good people existed, who really followed it's values. Would they create slum towns covered in shit? What form would their enemy take? If they are dying out, what causes their metaphysical "fall"? What should the highest ruins tell people of the past? If instead, everything is crooked, shit-covered, to begin with, what is the point? Critiques are antithetical to fantasy, the whole point of the genre is spiritual.

Sweeping is great enjoyment like raking. Sweep-o-holic.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

There's a deeply spiritual nature to Tolkien's writing that apparently goes over the heads of most people. They notice only the superficial aspects of humans, dwarves, elves, and orcs. The Lord of the Rings is about resisting the greed, corruption, and wickedness that surrounds us everywhere we go, remaining pure of heart when everyone is trying to drag you down to their level. None of the shamelessly derivative works even scratch the surface of this idea.

Absolutely.

The people of the past conceived of the world as a descending line of the ages, from an age of purity, to one where the truth was more obscured by the forces of darkness. Wherin heroes could rediscover the metaphysical force that had powered the Golden Age, and bring it to the people anew. Totally the opposite conception of the progressive one of a constant incline. Modernism is the abberation; most of the world still believes this.

A lot of fantasy these days is just modernism wearing a medieval skinsuit. The whole point was to enter a different world, where people thought differently to you, and actually doing their alien perspective justice. So medieval concepts like Golden Ages of purity were given their due unironically. They would even try to mimic speech patterns of Middle English to aid the feeling of another time. Developers were once capable of putting aside their own conceptions momentarily. Now social assumptions of today are current in all epochs. Fantasy without a spiritual perspective of some sort is pointless. A modernist fantasy, with valley girl slang, is beyond pointless.

Real fantasy succeeds in entering a different time mentally, then doing it's alien assumptions their own highest justice. It's not meant to be a critique. Just to use one very small example of the difference in mindset, take labour and chores. Medieval people had to find ways to enjoy their work. To make it spiritual. They wouldn't have survived if not. So finding the sacred in everyday life would have been essential. Many religions see such tasks as having teaching value. However modernists, unable to conceive of life in a different mental paradigm, may write their fantasy to be full of toil, social ill, injustice, unable to give the overall conception of another way of life, it's due, because their conception is that 'the past' is an inferior point on a graph.

Do you ever see a JRPG in which the people of a town look unhappy doing essential chores? It doesn't matter if this is a realistic commentary on 1600s Japan; it's a fantasy. Shinto emphaises ritual purity and cleanliness, as akin to cultivating cleanliness of spirit. Zen Buddhism emphasises mindful labour as a potentially sacred insight into the nature of things. On the other hand, you see morbid views of medieval life everywhere in Western RPGs. "Ooooh, I've got the pox, I'm bleeding out my arse, I have sores exuding puss, but I've gotta fuck three more smelly clients today to meet my rent." People think this is clever, like a fool who loves their own stink, but it's just dragging attitudes away from higher meaning, into the dumb and the profane.

So you decide to create a fantasy setting in which people worship 12 pagan gods, each symbolising virtues, say Law, Justice, Bravery, etc. Their overall philosophy is a fantasy analogue of Platonism. They take their devotions to Law, Justice, Bravery, Cleanliness, Honesty, Compassion, seriously. Then what is the highest good that could come about in such a society? What would it's towns look like? Assume good people existed, who really followed it's values. Would they create slum towns covered in shit? What form would their enemy take? If they are dying out, what causes their metaphysical "fall"? What should the highest ruins tell people of the past? If instead, everything is crooked, shit-covered, to begin with, what is the point? Critiques are antithetical to fantasy, the whole point of the genre is spiritual.

I think is very good description of Tolkienism, but what with Howard? Conan stories have strong longing for past, but his values are different: vitality, wildness, strength, unironical manliness. Howard written his stories as rebellion about modernism, just like Tolkien, however, in his vision there is no place for safe medievalism. Instead we have nietzhean ubermensch, forging his path with steel, will and fight.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

There's a deeply spiritual nature to Tolkien's writing that apparently goes over the heads of most people. They notice only the superficial aspects of humans, dwarves, elves, and orcs. The Lord of the Rings is about resisting the greed, corruption, and wickedness that surrounds us everywhere we go, remaining pure of heart when everyone is trying to drag you down to their level. None of the shamelessly derivative works even scratch the surface of this idea.

Absolutely.

The people of the past conceived of the world as a descending line of the ages, from an age of purity, to one where the truth was more obscured by the forces of darkness. Wherin heroes could rediscover the metaphysical force that had powered the Golden Age, and bring it to the people anew. Totally the opposite conception of the progressive one of a constant incline. Modernism is the abberation; most of the world still believes this.

A lot of fantasy these days is just modernism wearing a medieval skinsuit. The whole point was to enter a different world, where people thought differently to you, and actually doing their alien perspective justice. So medieval concepts like Golden Ages of purity were given their due unironically. They would even try to mimic speech patterns of Middle English to aid the feeling of another time. Developers were once capable of putting aside their own conceptions momentarily. Now social assumptions of today are current in all epochs. Fantasy without a spiritual perspective of some sort is pointless. A modernist fantasy, with valley girl slang, is beyond pointless.

Real fantasy succeeds in entering a different time mentally, then doing it's alien assumptions their own highest justice. It's not meant to be a critique. Just to use one very small example of the difference in mindset, take labour and chores. Medieval people had to find ways to enjoy their work. To make it spiritual. They wouldn't have survived if not. So finding the sacred in everyday life would have been essential. Many religions see such tasks as having teaching value. However modernists, unable to conceive of life in a different mental paradigm, may write their fantasy to be full of toil, social ill, injustice, unable to give the overall conception of another way of life, it's due, because their conception is that 'the past' is an inferior point on a graph.

Do you ever see a JRPG in which the people of a town look unhappy doing essential chores? It doesn't matter if this is a realistic commentary on 1600s Japan; it's a fantasy. Shinto emphaises ritual purity and cleanliness, as akin to cultivating cleanliness of spirit. Zen Buddhism emphasises mindful labour as a potentially sacred insight into the nature of things. On the other hand, you see morbid views of medieval life everywhere in Western RPGs. "Ooooh, I've got the pox, I'm bleeding out my arse, I have sores exuding puss, but I've gotta fuck three more smelly clients today to meet my rent." People think this is clever, like a fool who loves their own stink, but it's just dragging attitudes away from higher meaning, into the dumb and the profane.

So you decide to create a fantasy setting in which people worship 12 pagan gods, each symbolising virtues, say Law, Justice, Bravery, etc. Their overall philosophy is a fantasy analogue of Platonism. They take their devotions to Law, Justice, Bravery, Cleanliness, Honesty, Compassion, seriously. Then what is the highest good that could come about in such a society? What would it's towns look like? Assume good people existed, who really followed it's values. Would they create slum towns covered in shit? What form would their enemy take? If they are dying out, what causes their metaphysical "fall"? What should the highest ruins tell people of the past? If instead, everything is crooked, shit-covered, to begin with, what is the point? Critiques are antithetical to fantasy, the whole point of the genre is spiritual.

I think is very good description of Tolkienism, but what with Howard? Conan stories have strong longing for past, but his values are different: vitality, wildness, strength, unironical manliness. Howard written his stories as rebellion about modernism, just like Tolkien, however, in his vision there is no place for safe medievalism. Instead we have nietzhean ubermensch, forging his path with steel, will and fight.

I see two levels to civilization, to state it as succinctly as I can: First "create an enclosure of law for your tribe, among wild chaos" (the brutal work of carving a homeland, killing the wolves, draining the swamp, disciplining the unrepentent, punishing deception and betrayal), then secondly the higher pursuit of goodness against entropy at the level of a civilized culture. The second can never forget that it rests upon the first; every Aragorn is also a Conan, if neccecary, if society regresses. Conan really captures the first level excellently. Tolkien the second. Through will, an honest barbarian forces the natural law to manifest, bending the bronze age into a habitable place amid the brutal chaos, cruel kingdoms, decadent near-eastern despots, tyranical cults, etc.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

There's a deeply spiritual nature to Tolkien's writing that apparently goes over the heads of most people. They notice only the superficial aspects of humans, dwarves, elves, and orcs. The Lord of the Rings is about resisting the greed, corruption, and wickedness that surrounds us everywhere we go, remaining pure of heart when everyone is trying to drag you down to their level. None of the shamelessly derivative works even scratch the surface of this idea.

Absolutely.

The people of the past conceived of the world as a descending line of the ages, from an age of purity, to one where the truth was more obscured by the forces of darkness. Wherin heroes could rediscover the metaphysical force that had powered the Golden Age, and bring it to the people anew. Totally the opposite conception of the progressive one of a constant incline. Modernism is the abberation; most of the world still believes this.

A lot of fantasy these days is just modernism wearing a medieval skinsuit. The whole point was to enter a different world, where people thought differently to you, and actually doing their alien perspective justice. So medieval concepts like Golden Ages of purity were given their due unironically. They would even try to mimic speech patterns of Middle English to aid the feeling of another time. Developers were once capable of putting aside their own conceptions momentarily. Now social assumptions of today are current in all epochs. Fantasy without a spiritual perspective of some sort is pointless. A modernist fantasy, with valley girl slang, is beyond pointless.

Real fantasy succeeds in entering a different time mentally, then doing it's alien assumptions their own highest justice. It's not meant to be a critique. Just to use one very small example of the difference in mindset, take labour and chores. Medieval people had to find ways to enjoy their work. To make it spiritual. They wouldn't have survived if not. So finding the sacred in everyday life would have been essential. Many religions see such tasks as having teaching value. However modernists, unable to conceive of life in a different mental paradigm, may write their fantasy to be full of toil, social ill, injustice, unable to give the overall conception of another way of life, it's due, because their conception is that 'the past' is an inferior point on a graph.

Do you ever see a JRPG in which the people of a town look unhappy doing essential chores? It doesn't matter if this is a realistic commentary on 1600s Japan; it's a fantasy. Shinto emphaises ritual purity and cleanliness, as akin to cultivating cleanliness of spirit. Zen Buddhism emphasises mindful labour as a potentially sacred insight into the nature of things. On the other hand, you see morbid views of medieval life everywhere in Western RPGs. "Ooooh, I've got the pox, I'm bleeding out my arse, I have sores exuding puss, but I've gotta fuck three more smelly clients today to meet my rent." People think this is clever, like a fool who loves their own stink, but it's just dragging attitudes away from higher meaning, into the dumb and the profane.

So you decide to create a fantasy setting in which people worship 12 pagan gods, each symbolising virtues, say Law, Justice, Bravery, etc. Their overall philosophy is a fantasy analogue of Platonism. They take their devotions to Law, Justice, Bravery, Cleanliness, Honesty, Compassion, seriously. Then what is the highest good that could come about in such a society? What would it's towns look like? Assume good people existed, who really followed it's values. Would they create slum towns covered in shit? What form would their enemy take? If they are dying out, what causes their metaphysical "fall"? What should the highest ruins tell people of the past? If instead, everything is crooked, shit-covered, to begin with, what is the point? Critiques are antithetical to fantasy, the whole point of the genre is spiritual.

I think is very good description of Tolkienism, but what with Howard? Conan stories have strong longing for past, but his values are different: vitality, wildness, strength, unironical manliness. Howard written his stories as rebellion about modernism, just like Tolkien, however, in his vision there is no place for safe medievalism. Instead we have nietzhean ubermensch, forging his path with steel, will and fight.

I see two levels to civilization, to state it as succinctly as I can: First "create an enclosure of law for your tribe, among wild chaos" (the brutal work of carving a homeland, killing the wolves, draining the swamp, disciplining the unrepentent, punishing deception and betrayal), then secondly the higher pursuit of goodness against entropy at the level of a civilized culture. The second can never forget that it rests upon the first; every Aragorn is also a Conan, if neccecary, if society regresses. Conan really captures the first level excellently. Tolkien the second. Through will, an honest barbarian forces the natural law to manifest, bending the bronze age into a habitable place amid the brutal chaos, cruel kingdoms, decadent near-eastern despots, tyranical cults, etc.

I'm not sure civilization should be connecting chain. Howard in essay "The Hyborian Age" show himself as displeased with civilization as invention that destroy human vitality. Barbarian always defeats civilization, barbarian became civilization, and civilization falls because of barbarians.

From the other hand, Tolkien loved rural communities (hobbits are idealized English peasants). Living in medieval was mostly about local community and this spirits is also in his books. There is more classical civilization in Silmarillion, with concept of dominant cultures and relation of powers, but I don't think is a dominant motive in "Lord of the Rings".

Personally, I see roots of fantasy genre in rebellion against modernism and rationalization. When modernism became more irrational, less scientific, fantasy became a costume, another identity in a fragmentary social word. If you look at it this way, recent woke obsession in fantasy seems natural - fantasy community as another field of personal salvation by individually chosen and erected community.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

There's a deeply spiritual nature to Tolkien's writing that apparently goes over the heads of most people. They notice only the superficial aspects of humans, dwarves, elves, and orcs. The Lord of the Rings is about resisting the greed, corruption, and wickedness that surrounds us everywhere we go, remaining pure of heart when everyone is trying to drag you down to their level. None of the shamelessly derivative works even scratch the surface of this idea.

Absolutely.

The people of the past conceived of the world as a descending line of the ages, from an age of purity, to one where the truth was more obscured by the forces of darkness. Wherin heroes could rediscover the metaphysical force that had powered the Golden Age, and bring it to the people anew. Totally the opposite conception of the progressive one of a constant incline. Modernism is the abberation; most of the world still believes this.

A lot of fantasy these days is just modernism wearing a medieval skinsuit. The whole point was to enter a different world, where people thought differently to you, and actually doing their alien perspective justice. So medieval concepts like Golden Ages of purity were given their due unironically. They would even try to mimic speech patterns of Middle English to aid the feeling of another time. Developers were once capable of putting aside their own conceptions momentarily. Now social assumptions of today are current in all epochs. Fantasy without a spiritual perspective of some sort is pointless. A modernist fantasy, with valley girl slang, is beyond pointless.

Real fantasy succeeds in entering a different time mentally, then doing it's alien assumptions their own highest justice. It's not meant to be a critique. Just to use one very small example of the difference in mindset, take labour and chores. Medieval people had to find ways to enjoy their work. To make it spiritual. They wouldn't have survived if not. So finding the sacred in everyday life would have been essential. Many religions see such tasks as having teaching value. However modernists, unable to conceive of life in a different mental paradigm, may write their fantasy to be full of toil, social ill, injustice, unable to give the overall conception of another way of life, it's due, because their conception is that 'the past' is an inferior point on a graph.

Do you ever see a JRPG in which the people of a town look unhappy doing essential chores? It doesn't matter if this is a realistic commentary on 1600s Japan; it's a fantasy. Shinto emphaises ritual purity and cleanliness, as akin to cultivating cleanliness of spirit. Zen Buddhism emphasises mindful labour as a potentially sacred insight into the nature of things. On the other hand, you see morbid views of medieval life everywhere in Western RPGs. "Ooooh, I've got the pox, I'm bleeding out my arse, I have sores exuding puss, but I've gotta fuck three more smelly clients today to meet my rent." People think this is clever, like a fool who loves their own stink, but it's just dragging attitudes away from higher meaning, into the dumb and the profane.

So you decide to create a fantasy setting in which people worship 12 pagan gods, each symbolising virtues, say Law, Justice, Bravery, etc. Their overall philosophy is a fantasy analogue of Platonism. They take their devotions to Law, Justice, Bravery, Cleanliness, Honesty, Compassion, seriously. Then what is the highest good that could come about in such a society? What would it's towns look like? Assume good people existed, who really followed it's values. Would they create slum towns covered in shit? What form would their enemy take? If they are dying out, what causes their metaphysical "fall"? What should the highest ruins tell people of the past? If instead, everything is crooked, shit-covered, to begin with, what is the point? Critiques are antithetical to fantasy, the whole point of the genre is spiritual.

I think is very good description of Tolkienism, but what with Howard? Conan stories have strong longing for past, but his values are different: vitality, wildness, strength, unironical manliness. Howard written his stories as rebellion about modernism, just like Tolkien, however, in his vision there is no place for safe medievalism. Instead we have nietzhean ubermensch, forging his path with steel, will and fight.

I see two levels to civilization, to state it as succinctly as I can: First "create an enclosure of law for your tribe, among wild chaos" (the brutal work of carving a homeland, killing the wolves, draining the swamp, disciplining the unrepentent, punishing deception and betrayal), then secondly the higher pursuit of goodness against entropy at the level of a civilized culture. The second can never forget that it rests upon the first; every Aragorn is also a Conan, if neccecary, if society regresses. Conan really captures the first level excellently. Tolkien the second. Through will, an honest barbarian forces the natural law to manifest, bending the bronze age into a habitable place amid the brutal chaos, cruel kingdoms, decadent near-eastern despots, tyranical cults, etc.

I'm not sure civilization should be connecting chain. Howard in essay "The Hyborian Age" show himself as displeased with civilization as invention that destroy human vitality. Barbarian always defeats civilization, barbarian became civilization, and civilization falls because of barbarians.

From the other hand, Tolkien loved rural communities (hobbits are idealized English peasants). Living in medieval was mostly about local community and this spirits is also in his books. There is more classical civilization in Silmarillion, with concept of dominant cultures and relation of powers, but I don't think is a dominant motive in "Lord of the Rings".

Personally, I see roots of fantasy genre in rebellion against modernism and rationalization. When modernism became more irrational, less scientific, fantasy became a costume, another identity in a fragmentary social word. If you look at it this way, recent woke obsession in fantasy seems natural - fantasy community as another field of personal salvation by individually chosen and erected community.

Thats what I mean by not forgetting the natural law we rest upon. It's just a semantic way of me saying the same thing as Howard. I don't mean we should ever become fops more interested in arts than developing the body, the family, the nation and the military

You may find the traditionalist school of philosophy interesting, as it argues much of what we have said. I do see modern nerds as understanding the traditional spiritual impulses more than other groups. Futurama compared Star Trek and Star Wars fans to religions. Fantasy heroes have been compared to the oral epics of the ancient world, from Homer to Valmiki. Not too far from the truth.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

There's a deeply spiritual nature to Tolkien's writing that apparently goes over the heads of most people. They notice only the superficial aspects of humans, dwarves, elves, and orcs. The Lord of the Rings is about resisting the greed, corruption, and wickedness that surrounds us everywhere we go, remaining pure of heart when everyone is trying to drag you down to their level. None of the shamelessly derivative works even scratch the surface of this idea.

Absolutely.

The people of the past conceived of the world as a descending line of the ages, from an age of purity, to one where the truth was more obscured by the forces of darkness. Wherin heroes could rediscover the metaphysical force that had powered the Golden Age, and bring it to the people anew. Totally the opposite conception of the progressive one of a constant incline. Modernism is the abberation; most of the world still believes this.

A lot of fantasy these days is just modernism wearing a medieval skinsuit. The whole point was to enter a different world, where people thought differently to you, and actually doing their alien perspective justice. So medieval concepts like Golden Ages of purity were given their due unironically. They would even try to mimic speech patterns of Middle English to aid the feeling of another time. Developers were once capable of putting aside their own conceptions momentarily. Now social assumptions of today are current in all epochs. Fantasy without a spiritual perspective of some sort is pointless. A modernist fantasy, with valley girl slang, is beyond pointless.

Real fantasy succeeds in entering a different time mentally, then doing it's alien assumptions their own highest justice. It's not meant to be a critique. Just to use one very small example of the difference in mindset, take labour and chores. Medieval people had to find ways to enjoy their work. To make it spiritual. They wouldn't have survived if not. So finding the sacred in everyday life would have been essential. Many religions see such tasks as having teaching value. However modernists, unable to conceive of life in a different mental paradigm, may write their fantasy to be full of toil, social ill, injustice, unable to give the overall conception of another way of life, it's due, because their conception is that 'the past' is an inferior point on a graph.

Do you ever see a JRPG in which the people of a town look unhappy doing essential chores? It doesn't matter if this is a realistic commentary on 1600s Japan; it's a fantasy. Shinto emphaises ritual purity and cleanliness, as akin to cultivating cleanliness of spirit. Zen Buddhism emphasises mindful labour as a potentially sacred insight into the nature of things. On the other hand, you see morbid views of medieval life everywhere in Western RPGs. "Ooooh, I've got the pox, I'm bleeding out my arse, I have sores exuding puss, but I've gotta fuck three more smelly clients today to meet my rent." People think this is clever, like a fool who loves their own stink, but it's just dragging attitudes away from higher meaning, into the dumb and the profane.

So you decide to create a fantasy setting in which people worship 12 pagan gods, each symbolising virtues, say Law, Justice, Bravery, etc. Their overall philosophy is a fantasy analogue of Platonism. They take their devotions to Law, Justice, Bravery, Cleanliness, Honesty, Compassion, seriously. Then what is the highest good that could come about in such a society? What would it's towns look like? Assume good people existed, who really followed it's values. Would they create slum towns covered in shit? What form would their enemy take? If they are dying out, what causes their metaphysical "fall"? What should the highest ruins tell people of the past? If instead, everything is crooked, shit-covered, to begin with, what is the point? Critiques are antithetical to fantasy, the whole point of the genre is spiritual.

I think is very good description of Tolkienism, but what with Howard? Conan stories have strong longing for past, but his values are different: vitality, wildness, strength, unironical manliness. Howard written his stories as rebellion about modernism, just like Tolkien, however, in his vision there is no place for safe medievalism. Instead we have nietzhean ubermensch, forging his path with steel, will and fight.

I see two levels to civilization, to state it as succinctly as I can: First "create an enclosure of law for your tribe, among wild chaos" (the brutal work of carving a homeland, killing the wolves, draining the swamp, disciplining the unrepentent, punishing deception and betrayal), then secondly the higher pursuit of goodness against entropy at the level of a civilized culture. The second can never forget that it rests upon the first; every Aragorn is also a Conan, if neccecary, if society regresses. Conan really captures the first level excellently. Tolkien the second. Through will, an honest barbarian forces the natural law to manifest, bending the bronze age into a habitable place amid the brutal chaos, cruel kingdoms, decadent near-eastern despots, tyranical cults, etc.

I'm not sure civilization should be connecting chain. Howard in essay "The Hyborian Age" show himself as displeased with civilization as invention that destroy human vitality. Barbarian always defeats civilization, barbarian became civilization, and civilization falls because of barbarians.

From the other hand, Tolkien loved rural communities (hobbits are idealized English peasants). Living in medieval was mostly about local community and this spirits is also in his books. There is more classical civilization in Silmarillion, with concept of dominant cultures and relation of powers, but I don't think is a dominant motive in "Lord of the Rings".

Personally, I see roots of fantasy genre in rebellion against modernism and rationalization. When modernism became more irrational, less scientific, fantasy became a costume, another identity in a fragmentary social word. If you look at it this way, recent woke obsession in fantasy seems natural - fantasy community as another field of personal salvation by individually chosen and erected community.

Thats what I mean by not forgetting the natural law we rest upon. It's just a semantic way of me saying the same thing as Howard. I don't mean we should ever become fops more interested in arts than developing the body, the family, the nation and the military

You may find the traditionalist school of philosophy interesting, as it argues much of what we have said. I do see modern nerds as understanding the traditional spiritual impulses more than other groups. Futurama compared Star Trek and Star Wars fans to religions. Fantasy heroes have been compared to the oral epics of the ancient world, from Homer to Valmiki. Not too far from the truth.

Isn't that sour irony, that previous tool of rebellion became another way of control, and in the worst kind of control - selfcontrol?

So, where Baldur's Gate 3 stands?

 

[Raghar]

There's a deeply spiritual nature to Tolkien's writing that apparently goes over the heads of most people. They notice only the superficial aspects of humans, dwarves, elves, and orcs. The Lord of the Rings is about resisting the greed, corruption, and wickedness that surrounds us everywhere we go, remaining pure of heart when everyone is trying to drag you down to their level. None of the shamelessly derivative works even scratch the surface of this idea.

Absolutely.

The people of the past conceived of the world as a descending line of the ages, from an age of purity, to one where the truth was more obscured by the forces of darkness. Wherin heroes could rediscover the metaphysical force that had powered the Golden Age, and bring it to the people anew. Totally the opposite conception of the progressive one of a constant incline. Modernism is the abberation; most of the world still believes this.

A lot of fantasy these days is just modernism wearing a medieval skinsuit. The whole point was to enter a different world, where people thought differently to you, and actually doing their alien perspective justice. So medieval concepts like Golden Ages of purity were given their due unironically. They would even try to mimic speech patterns of Middle English to aid the feeling of another time. Developers were once capable of putting aside their own conceptions momentarily. Now social assumptions of today are current in all epochs. Fantasy without a spiritual perspective of some sort is pointless. A modernist fantasy, with valley girl slang, is beyond pointless.

The problem is fantasy isn't medieval. In fantasy:

1. Sexes have equality.
2. 95 percent of people can read and write, with exception of toddlers.
3. They have working stratified government that tries to have population in decent condition and protected from replacement by migrations.
4. Theirs kings are in theirs positions because of high skills.
5. They didn't blew continent by deadly dangerous artifacts. Yet.
6. Someone is removing deadly dangerous artifacts that were uncovered by heroes and sold on local market. Thus these dangerous artifacts are not in hands of random public.
7. They have birth controls.

Some writers are expecting when society uses melee weapons and ballista for warfare, that they didn't have access to more lethal weapons before.
And there are starting big problems with suspension of disbelief.

They also can't say magic is doing the same as technology, because if mages would be too common, someone would open a gate, and demons would massacre most of world's population.

So basically they need balance, and creativity. And that's where most creators fails.