Ahzaruuk
Arbiter
So how bad is the English translation? It's not like "Caution: Water under construction" is it?
Look in the mirror.undead dolphin hacker said:Nerdrage harder you no-taste fagcunt.
Lingwe said:The one thing that I find a bit strange is that the quest journal in Oblivion was roasted by the Codex for being too handholding, while the quest journal in the Witcher uses the exact same style of 'summary of what I've done-what to do next', and it receives a free pass. Are these types of journal entries only meant to be criticised if they are done by Bethesda?
kingcomrade said:undead dolphin hacker has always been a moron but he is totally trashing you guys in this thread and that is ridiculously funny
bezimek said:kingcomrade said:undead dolphin hacker has always been a moron but he is totally trashing you guys in this thread and that is ridiculously funny
Second to that UDH ver TW fanboys 10:1
The Walkin' Dude said:bezimek said:kingcomrade said:undead dolphin hacker has always been a moron but he is totally trashing you guys in this thread and that is ridiculously funny
Second to that UDH ver TW fanboys 10:1
Identified trolls do not win.
Many reasons, many of these tie into the quests themselves. I'll note some key points:
1) In The Witcher, the quest objectives only serve to guide you along a path, and a creative player can find alternate solutions to seemingly common problems. In Oblivion, what was suggested of you is what NEEDED to be done, you never had ANY options. If you follow the journal EXACTLY in TW, you will not do 'as well' as you could. A good example of this is the detective quest in Act 2.
2) The quests in Oblivion often did not make sense. You were not given information, then suddenly knew how to do things. Someone could tell you, "here's my watch, give it to my friend in Asshat Ville" and you'd suddenly know where Asshat Ville was, where his friend lived, where he was at that exact moment of that exact day, and never questioned as to why this guy is trusting some yiffy fur with his favorite watch.
3) The side-quests in The Witcher almost ALWAYS tie into the 'main plotline' of the game. Nothing is simply there. In order to complete the main quest, you had to complete some side quests (with C&C, btw) while figuring out and discovering how they tie into the main driving quest.
In Oblivion, every quest was completely seperate from everything else. Couple this with the lack of choices and your inability to fail quests unless you kill the questgiver, Oblivion's quests turned into nothing more than shitty MMO-worthy missions, and an overall stale and repetitive experience.
Also note:
To those of you wondering why we don't care about TW's quest-tracking feature... many reasons:
1) They don't tell you the EXACT location of the objective. Just something that Geralt should know.
I.E.: If someone told him where they live, he knows where they live. The quest tracker is nothing more than an extension of Geralt's psyche.
2) You can turn them off. YOU COULD DO THIS IN OBLIVION AS WELL, but that brings me to point #3.
3) The game isn't fucking built around following a damn red arrow everywhere. The NPCs give realistically specific directions, and you are never tasked with going somewhere that you would not have a logical reason of visiting.
You absolutely COULD NOT play Oblivion without the trackers. The NPCs gave you little or no directions, and you would often have to travel to one of hundreds of identical caves to find a quest update.This is agreed.
The one in The Witcher only shows you where to go based on what you were told. E.g. you are told to go to a person's house in the quest, and you go there even though you find out that the person isn't there. In Oblivion, the quest compass would just show the person you need even if you had no way of knowing their location.
Uh, no.Lingwe said:So it just confirms my suspicion that the "I did this now I need to do this" style of journal entry is only criticised for Oblivion because the quests are poorly designed, while in the Witcher where the quests have choices and consequences and are well designed it is fine to use that style of journal. It seems that people are just looking at the quest journal with rose-tinted or poo-tinted glasses depending upon which game it is.
Style and execution are two different things. Both Baldur's Gate and KOTOR have the same combat style (round-based, DnD-based, pausable combat), yet they are completely different, and I don't think there are many people who wouldn't prefer BG-style combat to KOTOR combat. Same here.I know Oblivion's quests are bad, but the point I was raising is that the journal is accused of handholding yet it has the same style as the Witchers journal and I haven't seen anyone accusing that of being handholding.
Lingwe said:So it just confirms my suspicion that the "I did this now I need to do this" style of journal entry is only criticised for Oblivion because the quests are poorly designed, while in the Witcher where the quests have choices and consequences and are well designed it is fine to use that style of journal. It seems that people are just looking at the quest journal with rose-tinted or poo-tinted glasses depending upon which game it is.
You cannot simply isolate every issue with a game's quest journal and attack them directly, everything melds together to form an either good or bad experience.
The combination of Oblivion's linear quests -with pointless outcomes -AND unavoidable quest trackering is what MADE IT HAVE BAD QUESTS. Not just one of those things.
It made the game nothing more than following an arrow around from point A to point B ALL THE TIME. Why? -Because the quests were so linear that there was only one way to go, they were so pointless you didn't even want to read the journal entry, and they were so vague that even if you wanted to try and play the game the 'realistic' way, you'd be wasting time exploring boring-ass scenery.
If you separate these issues, they don't really seem that bad:
-Linear
-Designed around a bad game mechanic
-Pointless
(Also: -Boring Scenery)
Everything in a game comes together to form the actual experience you get while playing it, you have to look at the bigger picture and how seemingly separate game mechanics actually intertwine constantly.
My point is basically if there were quests in Oblivion without the quest arrow, and the quest giver gave spoken directions (which were then included in the journal) would you still just say "those journal entries are too handholding".
If the quests only had one possible outcome (the one in your journal) then yes, I would call them too handholding.
Plus, the journal system in Oblivion is WAAAAYYY overboard. Every time you did ONE LITTLE THING you'd get a quest update, again with vague directions forcing you to use the arrow, no matter how simple the objective.
You must find cave X
You found cave X, now go inside
You went inside, now find the altar
You found the altar, now place item X on it
You've successfully placed item X on the altar! Good job! Now...
MasPingon said:You must find cave X
You found cave X, now go inside
You went inside, now find the altar
You found the altar, now place item X on it
You've successfully placed item X on the altar! Good job! Now...
Actulally that's how The Witcher journal looks like
Quest-related books, scrolls and notes were even funnier - pop-up with detailed instructions what to do next (plus GPS tracker updated) before you got the chance to open and read the book.JarlFrank said:pops right into your face all the time. You just entered the cave. *ZA-BLING!* A message window appears that almost covers your whole screen and tells you what to do next.
ElPresidente said:Oblivion gets a smack around the head because at no stage do you feel in control of the plot or your characters development, the things that make an RPG an RPG. In effect Oblivion is GTA on horseback.
JarlFrank said:ElPresidente said:Oblivion gets a smack around the head because at no stage do you feel in control of the plot or your characters development, the things that make an RPG an RPG. In effect Oblivion is GTA on horseback.
GTA has more choices, gameplay-wise, and is more fun. And the AI is not dumb as straw.
The poor execution of KOTOR combat compared to BG can be blamed on a single factor: The absolutely shit interface. In BG, you can view the action from an angle which lets you see your surroundings, your party, and your opposition. In KOTOR, the camera is fixed to the currently selected character's ass. In BG, you can select one or more characters by simply drawing a box or clicking on them. In KOTOR, you can't: You can select only a single character to be moved at a time, and you cannot order him to move and then order someone else to move. Only one person may move at a time. In BG, you can target a spell effect by simply choosing which spell you want and then clicking where you want to throw it. In KOTOR, you can only throw your spell effect at an enemy. You can't really tell WHICH enemy very easily, and this massive imprecision in placement detracts from your ability to actually aim anything, as you are unable to attempt to lead the target. Also, the entire NWN/KOTOR engine family carries a distinctly mushy, unresponsive feel to orders, whereas Infinity always seemed much more responsive to any orders issued.Vault Dweller said:Style and execution are two different things. Both Baldur's Gate and KOTOR have the same combat style (round-based, DnD-based, pausable combat), yet they are completely different, and I don't think there are many people who wouldn't prefer BG-style combat to KOTOR combat. Same here.
undead dolphin hacker said:Also, I don't see what the big deal about hyperbole is when the Codex is built on it. When you see someone cut into a ripe turd, rase the chunk of shit to their mouth, then pop it in a savor the taste, what other reaction is there than hyperbole and disgust?
The worst part is when they have the gall to defend their turd-eating. The socially retarded mouthbreathers get up in your face and show off the excrement-filled crevices between your teeth. They breath and spit into your face, logorrhea turned into diarrhea as their shitstained spittle and shiteater's breath washes over you.
Just so with defenders of The Witcher, as any other philistine hypocrite. You are no better than a moron that sings the praises of American Idol while mocking America's Next Top Model in the next breath. No matter what your preference, you're still eating shit.