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Incline Wizardry 8 Enhancements - A Call to Arms!

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,631
Pumping up ninja ranged damage / crit kills and lowering their hp won't increase the challenge for 99% of players.. (they will just keep them back row and throw ninja stars and shit)
What does this have to do with anything if ninja is not cost-effective compared to other classes? Bar some cheesy powergaming (which doesn't really count) there is a number of problems that mostly makes this class run on the coolness factor (ninja!) rather than the actual usefulness.

Anyway, my main idea would be to make ninja "weaker" by removing alchemy spellbook from him (sucks for a hybrid, most offensive of all schools, requires high levels to be of any use, there is another hybrid with that book), but at least make him develop a bit quicker (normal hybrid exp progression). Unfortunately seems that it can't be done.

Draq's idea of backstabbing isn't bad either, at least it would make the puny special ninja weapons potentially worthwhile.
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
Ninja backstab would make rogues pretty much redundant, unless we took away ninja thievery skills.

Exp requirements are hardcoded, so removing alchemy is pointless for now as well.

Edit: I personally prefer ninja instead of rogue because of alchemy.
 

townltu

Novice
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
33
from my experience in >100 full runs and playtesting up to the hilt,
Ninja is the most powerful class in wiz 8 if they are well developed and played,
btw m_loner20_014.mp3, but unfortunately there is no pvp option :D
especially in mods with high AC/evasion/dmg_resistance bosses the auto penetration combined with thrown instakills counts more than hundreds of dmg per round,
for instance try zorcans general in dodds or the 20k HP/125 reg tree in white wolfs as pure solo PC.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,977
Location
Russia
I doubt savescumming for cane of corprus or using metagaming to rush for returning shuriken counts for "well played", as well as farming xp to get specialist classes to the level of excellency of basic classes (Ninja placing Portal, yeah, I never did that in my games). I would assume by their nature ninjas should use stealth, throwing, alchemy status effects and critical hits to kill any enemy, but it isn't that flexible in the game. Half of the game you throw around every shit you find hoping for a death attack and spam pointless spells to reach at least moderate level in alchemy. Other half you feel you'd better with other class, or break game with cane of corprus. I dunno, it's not that ninjas are useless, but they just don't feel like they work as intended.
 

DraQ

Arcane
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Ninja backstab would make rogues pretty much redundant, unless we took away ninja thievery skills.

Exp requirements are hardcoded, so removing alchemy is pointless for now as well.

Edit: I personally prefer ninja instead of rogue because of alchemy.
Rogues are sturdier, have better armour, pick locks and steal better, need less XP and can use better swords and ranged weapons (damage-wise).

TBH I wouldn't remove alchemy because it's pointless.
It fits with flavour, isn't overpowering and you can sink points into it or not depending on your own judgement and playstyle.

Allowing more armor would only unreasonably raise AC, which the stealthy Ninjas already have in abundance.
The joke is that it would be low end stuff inferior to basic ninja garb (basically what mage or monk can wear). Maybe make starting armour cloth pants, shirt and sandals then put some crit bonuses on actual ninja garb (keeping the AC low) making finding or purchasing it worthwhile.

BTW: What can be done to bring the AC down? Can you give ninja negative damage resistance?
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
make starting armour cloth pants, shirt and sandals then put some crit bonuses on actual ninja garb (keeping the AC low) making finding or purchasing it worthwhile

Excellent idea! I'll probably go with this.
I don't think it's possible to give armor penalty to a class, but that shouldn't pose a problem with what you suggested.
 

DraQ

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make starting armour cloth pants, shirt and sandals then put some crit bonuses on actual ninja garb (keeping the AC low) making finding or purchasing it worthwhile

Excellent idea! I'll probably go with this.
I don't think it's possible to give armor penalty to a class, but that shouldn't pose a problem with what you suggested.
Not armor penalty, but negative damage resist.

Just like some races have negative magic realm resist modifiers and monks have damage resist modifier, you could try putting such modifier on ninjas but make it negative.

How does stealth skill work, BTW?
I know that it pumps AC, but what else?

Also, thanks.
 

I_am_Ian

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
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507
Location
The United States of America
Is it possible to remove the ability of characters to acquire skill increases by performing actions? I thought this might have the potential to make things more interesting and definitely more difficult. For one, skill training techniques would be eliminated. The goal would shift to gaining levels for stat increases.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,631
from my experience in >100 full runs and playtesting up to the hilt,
Ninja is the most powerful class in wiz 8
Wat
How does stealth skill work, BTW?
I know that it pumps AC, but what else?
It makes critters ignore the character completely in combat (chance for that is unknown, but it happens often on high levels) which makes this skill way better than actual armor.
Edit: I personally prefer ninja instead of rogue because of alchemy.
Preference and actual usefulness are two different things. Rogue has better offence, better defence and is easier to develop on top of that.
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
Just like some races have negative magic realm resist modifiers and monks have damage resist modifier, you could try putting such modifier on ninjas but make it negative.

But there is no such modifier per se. There are magic resistance modifiers for races and that's it. The AC +2 bonus, as well as the damage resistance, are just pre-set abilities. The closest thing possible would be givig that ability to everyone else.
Unless / until mad god deciphers the code for class abilities, the options are limited to what's already in the game and we can only move these around.


Edit: I personally prefer ninja instead of rogue because of alchemy.
Preference and actual usefulness are two different things. Rogue has better offence, better defence and is easier to develop on top of that.
I meant that as an argument against removing alchemy, not trying to prove it to be the better class.
We don't want to make ninja just a flavor of rogue.
 

DraQ

Arcane
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Just like some races have negative magic realm resist modifiers and monks have damage resist modifier, you could try putting such modifier on ninjas but make it negative.

But there is no such modifier per se. There are magic resistance modifiers for races and that's it. The AC +2 bonus, as well as the damage resistance, are just pre-set abilities. The closest thing possible would be givig that ability to everyone else.
Unless / until mad god deciphers the code for class abilities, the options are limited to what's already in the game and we can only move these around.
Ok.

So would it be possible to nerf stealth skill in general?
Leave the ignore part, but dig up and null the AC bonus part?
It doesn't make sense and makes stealthers better tanks than guys in plate, which is just wrong.
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
Stealth is more about self-defense than tanking. It doesn't make stealthy guys better tanks unless you have full frontline of them, so the enemies can't see anything they can reach.
I'd like to nerf it a bit anyway, but I don't think it's currently possible.
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
Could be like this then:

Starting Ninja equipment: robes
-reduce basic robes AC from 2 to 1

-reduce Ninja cowl/garb AC from 3 to 2
-add 5% / 4% kill
-raise price from 50/30 GP to 5000/3000

It's 2 points less AC early and 1 less late game.
Better magical robes have up to 6 AC, but you'll lose on the crits.
 

DraQ

Arcane
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Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
Could be like this then:

Starting Ninja equipment: robes
-reduce basic robes AC from 2 to 1

-reduce Ninja cowl/garb AC from 3 to 2
-add 5% / 4% kill
-raise price from 50/30 GP to 5000/3000

It's 2 points less AC early and 1 less late game.
Better magical robes have up to 6 AC, but you'll lose on the crits.
Why bother with robes if you have cloth shirt, cloth pants and sandals?

Ninja garb changes seem fine.

I wouldn't even mind specifically barring ninja from wearing high level robes. They are probably ornate and ninjas are all about being inconspicuous and looking like average joes (when not running around in conspicuous black pajamas, that is :P ).
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
The original point behind robes for ninja was allowing Robes of Rejuvenation. My ninja tends to lag behind others in my casting hybrid parties (I love 4-man parties with one hybrid for each magic school) because of complete lack of SP regen.
The sole exception is Amulet of Nebdar. And my samurai usually wants that one. In any case, you'll probably have someone who has better use for it than your ninja.

There is an unused ninja-only item, Blackbelt of 5 flowers, which adds +3 AC (!). I'll probably turn it into a casting ninja's best friend and remove the AC bonus. The name sounds quite fitting for this.
Then I'll gladly take robes from ninja again.
 

townltu

Novice
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
33
...
My ninja tends to lag behind others in my casting hybrid parties (I love 4-man parties with one hybrid for each magic school) because of complete lack of SP regen.
The sole exception is Amulet of Nebdar. ...
Just for the records, there is one more, the Ring of Power,ID#812
Its set as fixed drop for NPC ID#87 thats assigned to monster ID#396.
The monster has "Cannot be fought with" flagged, but can be easily killed with strayed Death Stars etc
(summon elemental with fast caster and sonic boom with slower PC)
as far as i can recognize without consequences for the plot.

Besides, i prefer mana stones and camp for them (same with death stars/other top ammo)
and there is also enough magic nectar in the game.
 

I_am_Ian

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
507
Location
The United States of America
Is it possible to remove the ability of characters to acquire skill increases by performing actions? I thought this might have the potential to make things more interesting and definitely more difficult. For one, skill training techniques would be eliminated. The goal would shift to gaining levels for stat increases.
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
Just for the records, there is one more, the Ring of Power,ID#812
Its set as fixed drop for NPC ID#87 thats assigned to monster ID#396.
The monster has "Cannot be fought with" flagged, but can be easily killed with strayed Death Stars etc
(summon elemental with fast caster and sonic boom with slower PC)
as far as i can recognize without consequences for the plot.

I have come to hate doing stuff like that. You are willingly destroying any suspension of disbelief and demoting the game to a set of rules to find your way through. Simply said, I like Bela too much to kill him for some ring. Might add it in his regular vendor inventory though.
AFAIK no NPC is critical for the plot and you could slaughter everyone and still be able to finish it. Not sure, never tried to break it this way.

Besides, i prefer mana stones and camp for them (same with death stars/other top ammo)
and there is also enough magic nectar in the game.

It's more of a psychology thing for me. Consuming somewhat limited supplies is less plausible for training purposes, compared to just using a bit of your SP pool that's going to fill up again soon. Stocking up with mana items is conscious effort, while SP regen gives you cost free training on the go. And it's no big deal regarding balance, you still need mana items for more exhausting battles.
Wouldn't consider camping a proper way to obtain stuff either. We should account for regular gameplay in the first place.


Is it possible to remove the ability of characters to acquire skill increases by performing actions? I thought this might have the potential to make things more interesting and definitely more difficult. For one, skill training techniques would be eliminated. The goal would shift to gaining levels for stat increases.

Not possible AFAIK. It would also require to raise skill points per level, as well as max.investment in a single skill on level up. None of this is possible either.
I wouldn't probably want that anyway. I like the focus on actually training your guys instead of just rushing for a few high-XP quests.

Anyway, if I discover such possibilities, I'll post about it here and anyone is free to release his own adjustments of the mod. Changes of this type tend to be quick and easy once the support appears in Cosmic Forge. It even tells you which files it has modified so you exactly know what files carry your new changes.


Delaying level-ups is cheap and forcing level-up the moment you get the required exp would be nice. Sadly, not doable - again.
 

townltu

Novice
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
33
once agin just for the records:
madgod released CF v4.15 and added the option to fumble the game mechanics even more :p with the <<Classes Tab: "XP Group">>


I have come to hate doing stuff like that. You are willingly destroying any suspension of disbelief and demoting the game to a set of rules to find your way through. Simply said, I like Bela too much to kill him for some ring.
As an old school p&p DM/player i agree 100%, some of my parties come from Bane, i only knew about the ring from working with CF.

Might add it in his regular vendor inventory though.
To prevent the exploit, i would also remove the ring, but never put it into a shop inventory, because it wouldnt stay unique,
instead offer it either during NPC interaction,
e.g. with "add phrase to known item phrases dbs" and prevent repetive deal with "fact contitional jump" command
or place the rings 3d model as dynamic object on the shops exhibition table etc with an invisible DO box conneted to a message trigger
which list the objects properties like in inventory screen,
or the invisible box sets a loc_var and triggers the trader-NPC script, loc_var conditional jumps to the question "wanny buy the xxx?"
(dont forget to restet the loc_var in all possible bocks!)

btw prevent exploit, if "my" Bela is given the diamond ring, his script will check whether the party comes from W6


AFAIK no NPC is critical for the plot and you could slaughter everyone and still be able to finish it. Not sure, never tried to break it this way.
I did some "kill all runs", think the first because of a trynnie patrol that wont let me pass, then too many umpanis simply went on my nerves,
and i never liked when the freedom of action for my parties is restricted,
so i invented the "lure them enemies to the *cannot be fought with* guys" tactics as reaction on dodds
and improved it with "summon elemental & make hostile" later :D


It's more of a psychology thing for me. Consuming somewhat limited supplies is less plausible for training purposes, compared to just using a bit of your SP pool that's going to fill up again soon. Stocking up with mana items is conscious effort, while SP regen gives you cost free training on the go. And it's no big deal regarding balance, you still need mana items for more exhausting battles.
Wouldn't consider camping a proper way to obtain stuff either. We should account for regular gameplay in the first place.
I dont consume the mana stones, always use 2 charges and sell/buy to reload,
usually end up with ~ 12, but had runs with >20 in the end, as you already may have suspected these were mainly runs through Dodds

To wait for restocking of whatever items you think you really need for your tasks(if time is irrelevant like in the Wiz8 "job")
is probably exactly what you would do in RL.

btw you can make the mana stones "non vanish" by simply assigning any resistance modifier (negative modifiers dont appear in the item description! ;) )
 

Charles Watkins

Barely Literate
Joined
Aug 25, 2013
Messages
1
I'm amazed and delighted to find this work in progress. Can't wait to play. How long till the 1.0 version is ready, do you think?
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
Sorry for such a late reply, I have been somewhat distracted by preparations for a PnP campaign for friends.

The most time consuming work to be done are the items. A slightly over 200 new icons are finished, and about 70 to do (got them counted now, this is no rough estimation anymore). There will be an update in the following weeks, and 1.0 can be expected in a couple of months, I think. Or some kind of release candidate at least.
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
I have an idea - what about some more Faerie usable/exclusive stuff to make playing faerie, particularly of professions typically demanding lugging around a lot of heavy shit, more viable?
 

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