World of Whorecraft: Battle for Asseroth

Mechanically, the game have never been more complex.

 

Extremely complex simplicity, got it. /boggle

 

What incentive do I have to do so? The game has progressively been dumbed down for years. Limited character development, streamlined content and focus. Raids made for the speed group pickups. So I didn't play the end game of the latest expansion, please excuse me for not being a fucking idiot and blowing 50 bucks on an expansion based on the claims that the game "really, no its hurd, its like tuff n stuff, compex yo!". There is nothing even remotely validating such a claim, read back, I asked them about what was available, what they were doing and what exists. I was foolish in the past listening to people claim various games were hard, difficulty, complex, etc... only to realize they wouldn't know complex if it was beating them Rodney King style in the street.

Let me ask you, has the end content been beat? Have all the raids been beat? It took around 5 months to the first Ragnaros kill and unless things have changed, all of the content I have seen over the years with WoW has been one fucktard fest of spam to max and do all the content in a month. That is WoW, are you seriously telling me that now the game has a very hard progression, that is requires extreme attention and skill to accomplish? You can try and spin a tale but I was leading 50-72 main raids in EQ while most of the people here were shitting their pants and sucking on their moms titty, so excuse me if I don't seem convinced.

Personally, I think we have had so many years of easy dumbed down games that you folks find anything that may stub your toe to be a challenge. /shrug

 

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1304374-WotLK-to-MoP-A-Trend-Analysis-of-Raiding-Difficulty

 

He does an analysis of difficulty based on the number of guilds that complete the content tell you anything? Like I said, it took 5 months from the release of MC before the first guild took down Ragnaros. How long did it take for the first guild to take down the end content of WotLK, of Cata, of WoD? See, it isn't about "how many guilds" took down what, that has limited meaning considering a large number of WoW players are seriously unskilled hacks. Look how long it took guilds to take down EQ content.

 

Woah woah woah, everything else aside, are you trying to suggest that Vanilla WoW raiders were skillful players or something like that? Or, hell, that EQ players were good in those raids? That there weren't cores of players that dragged the mass through the fights?

I really hope you aren't. A huge portion of raiders at all times, except in hardcore guilds, are pretty clueless - and even HC guilds have tons of fully geared people that are barely able to follow instructions.

 

^ That. The fact that it took so long for a guild to complete MC had far more to do with the game's pacing (xp/level requirements), poor itemization, unpolished talents, hybrid classes not being hybrid classes (druids, paladins, and shaman healed in raids and rarely did you see a shadow priest that early on), and overall low 'quality of life' features that intentionally stretched progression with tedium. Of a 40 person raid (oh yeah, organizing a roster of 50+ people to consistently field a 40 man raid), maybe half a dozen or so people had to be 'skilled.'

 

Yep. When Blizz turned raiding into 10/25, they changed a lot about group dynamics and encounter design, too. Sure, stuff's more compact, but at the same time, the most demanding 10-man encounters are insanely demanding. You have no room to fuck up. One fuck up and you've just killed your group, maybe even at 1%. Maybe one hit away from winning, but you've fucked it up, son, back to square 1, git gud or git out. Mechanically, raids are getting harder and harder all the time, and fuck, I miss my old core team, we smashed things with 'em (relatively speaking).

A lot of Vanilla raiding difficulty went to, like Metro said, to lack of tools, lack of gear (T1 raiding, what did you come there with? Fire res gear and maybe a AV epic hammer. Did you try to collect T0? Hehe, silly guy, it's all about fire resists with near-zero stats), lack of skills, lack of cooperation and tremendous logistical challenges.

That's not to say that it wouldn't be enjoyable. Maybe people look back with fondness on those times. Hell, I look back with most fondness to WotLK, when I had my best team. But that doesn't mean the new raids are easy, despite the speed people break through them. Just check the tactics for MoP raids, for example, and compare them with MC vanilla tactics. Feel the difference, yo.

 

Why don't you post something interesting, like c00l transmog sets for my gnome warlock?

 

I can post my screenshot gallery from the olden days, when I collected the "Worst RP character descriptions I've seen this week"

In fact, here's the latest entrant as a warm-up, it's very mild but fits Codexian themes:

 

World first guilds purchase the best players in the world, practice, study fight videos in anticipation of a new content release, use optimal raid composition, beta test, spend hundreds of thousands of gold on gear, farm trash and reg modes to preraid gear including alt runs, and strategize and experiment extensively with new content in addition to taking time off work during progression pushes.

If anything, world first clear times are poor indicators of the difficulty of content and of tuning. They generally have perfect fight execution with optimal comps, neither of which you have because you are not in a world first guild. If anything, getting in a world first guild is your most difficult challenge. You have to be playing the right class at the right time and you cannot fuck up.

 

MC because I was thoroughly disgusted with the player base (they fucking sucked, were impatient, couldn't follow directions and fucking argued with you over ever order all the while whining about how inconvenienced they were for showing up to the raid in the first place). That said, WoW players back then had to endure some pretty heavy content and while you can go on about how MC 40, BWL, etc... was nothing more than a handful of skilled raiders with a bunch of noob DPS, the events were far easier than later WoW content which was seriously... a fucking joke.

As for EQ, here is the thing. While some players were simply push a button or auto attack during a fight, the key players were so far more required in their attention and focus than ANYTHING that exists today. Try taking down the Avatar of War with 30 during its top day. You had to have perfect timing between your healing chain. Necros had to be consistent with their mana replenishment. As for the raid? LOL you had to time the entire raid to stop attacking in sequence to slowly back off damage while the next tank in the chain picked up agro and took over the main tank position (you couldn't heal a single tank for the entire fight, he had to use cool down abilities or he would die) from a tank chain of 4-5 tanks that rotated out over and over during the fight. Now do that... for 3 FUCKING HOURS STRAIGHT! One rogue that over agroed, one wizard/mage, etc... that pulled and it was a wipe. The AOW with a flurry and riposte could wipe an entire raid in seconds.

Now... You tell me that EQ raiders weren't more skilled and dedicated that fucking WOW-TARDS? Seriously, you find me some of these fucking WoW scrubs (ie WoW players, not ex EQ players) that could handle EQ raids and I will give you the shiniest brownie button in the world.

So while you can say that a core crew is what made the raids, well... you would be correct in "some" situations. but EQ wasn't always a simple tank and spank fight. Hell, ever do PoE, PoA, or Time? The entire fucking raid had to be on key, following directions and working in unison or it was a wipe. Can you imahine 72 people in WoW having to have their shit straight? Yeah, seriously, there is no comparison between WoW players and EQ.

 

Bullshit. As I said, I have been playing these for many years. You are making excuses.

 

Bull fucking shit! Seriously, whatever you no skilled hacks have to say to make yourself feel better. You wouldn't have lasted a fucking day in old school EQ. /sigh

BTW Metro, I was playing a mage at the release of MC, and with only green/blue gear (not 10 man) I was topping the DPS charts against all of the raid who were in 10 main UBRS gear. MC was not a progression content, it was a learn how to fucking play content with a lot of people who knew nothing about these games. Coming from EQ, it was frustrating as hell to teach a bunch of fucking noobs how to raid and trust me, those scrubs couldn't shine the shoes of the worst of the EQ players.

 

You're either a troll or a really pathetic person. I probably wouldn't have lasted a day in 'old school EQ' because I had to go to graduate school, have a social life, and take showers.

 

Lets see...

I was working application development 60-80 hours a week and led raids in EQ. Now admittedly, it was not end game content and it was picking up the scraps (you took whatever bosses you could catch up at reasonable times), but that didn't change the fact that we had to beat the content. Try as hard as you like, but in the end, your "lack of time" doesn't change the fact that you are one of those retards in EC complaining about how you can't find a group because you were a terrible player and nobody would accept you to group.

 

No idea what EC is but I found plenty of groups and raided in a timely fashion in both vanilla WoW and TBC. But seriously, your whole burnt out ex-all-pro-no-lifer-raider schtick is pretty cliche.

 

I'm one of the vanilla players who progressed from 5 man Scholo, Baron dungeons to raiding Onyxia, MC and then later BWL, AQ40 and Naxx. Prior to that, I've no MMO-raiding experience much like most of the people in our guild. We had to learn from scratch everything in MC and Onyxia, arggo control, positioning over-healing arggo, downranking heals. Good thing that the 5 mens taught us some practicals about CC and arggo management. I'm a Druid so I had to do whatever stuff we had to do to heal well without pulling arggo. We also had to brez and act as mana batteries to Priests. Looking back at clearing MC, the months we put in just to kill Ragnaros, it was really daunting especially when you had to farm good fire resist gear just for some of the bosses. But nothing in MC comes close to the insanity that was Naxx40, not even the bosses in AQ40 except C'thun, rivaled Naxx40's craziness. We were pretty much the same bunch of people who have raided from MC through to Naxx, and we'd still wipe to Naxx bosses for weeks. Stuff made of nightmares.

 

I don't doubt at all what you're saying here. The fact that you say that you were topping the DPS charts while wearing blues and greens in a 40 man raid tells me that the majority of what you were dealing when when raiding MC and EQ was coordinating a huge number of players. MMOs are not solo experiences.

Last night I was raiding with my "progression raiding guild" on Highmaul and my GM decided to pull Brackenspore on Heroic. There is an add that spawns on Brackenspore that the tank has to pick up. He has a castbar that can be interrupted by pressing a button. If his castbar fills, he instantly removes 85% of the entire raid's health.

In this encounter attempt, I watched the boss freecast this ability twice. The first time the raid healed through it, the second time it obviously wiped the raid. After that pull, my progression GM started babbling about intercepting the mushrooms and standing in the fungal clouds and yabbadabbadingdong.

I looked at my DPS logs and I typed: "INTERRUPTS. FUCKING INTERRUPTS." GM said nothing about interrupts so I linked my DPS logs showing that a total of 2 people out of a raid of 15 people used interrupts, myself and the main tank. The GM responds that his interrupts "weren't showing up." GM instantly decides to switch to normal (e.g. easy) mode and farm Tectus.

This is absolutely typical and endemic of what I've had to deal with while raiding. The issue is coordinating 15+ people to essentially hit a button so that they don't wipe the entire raid. And what you were dealing with was getting 40-75 people when you were in Molten Core and EQ to be able to out DPS somebody wearing blues and greens and do other types of basic shit. Bear in mind that I had to fill out an application to get into my guild, they wanted to see logs, they wanted to test you, they wanted to see DPS figures in the top 25%. So yeah, I get where you're coming from. As a matter of fact, Blizzard just released an LFR version of MC40 (that's right, a 40 man random pick up group) scaled to level 100 content that you can go play right now and it's basically a bunch of fucktards. People call LFR "Looking for Retards." But you've got to understand why I don't envy or desire in any way coordinating 39+ people that can't out DPS somebody wearing blues and greens or interrupt a castbar, because that sounds like shitty gameplay.

 

You two should form a raid guild.

 

EC is East Commons in EQ. As I said, I was working many hours during that time, though... I eventually moved to EQ Stormhammer server (40 bucks a month) as they allowed the guilds to schedule raid content rather than having to compete with people who had no life and could be on 24/7. This whole "no lifer" accusation is funny though. Our guild was primarily professionals (Engineers, lots of IT and research fields). Many of the people who played EQ were hobbist gamers, Techies, etc... WoW had an entirely different demographic (Construction worker, Soccer moms, computer illiterates, burger flipper, retail worker, etc..). Also, we weren't a top guild by any means. The top guilds could be on all the time, we had to work.

That said, the content was unforgiving and my EC comment apparently is lost on you. Basically, in EQ teamwork, knowing your class, following orders, etc... were a requirement to play EQ. Because of the nature of EQ, most HAD to PUG to play. The content was harsh and unforgiving (corpse runs) and so all those who never learned to play the game couldn't find groups (poor players were black listed quickly) and so were relegated to sitting around in EC whining about not being able to find a group.

You are trolling though metro, its what you do, so I am feeding your narcissism. Feel special now?

 

There were two type of people who game to the gaming scene with WoW. There were those who wanted to learn, and those who took everything personally during the raid (ie, they weren't picked for a key role, the raid was told to do something in a mechanical way without concern to the "feelings" of an individual player, loot was assigned to key roles in early progression in order to facilitate success, etc...). The former in a very short time became a seasoned team player while the latter was constantly bitching and whining about how their life is too important to show up to a raid on time, that they play the game for "their fun" and so can't be bothered to do anything that impedes that and should get loot because they can stand and draw breath. I seriously hated those shits. It was easier to lead 72 people in EQ on an PoE run timing event than it was trying to get a bunch of complaining soccer moms to follow orders without getting pissed every 2 mins. Regardless, WoW broke me of wanting to lead raids and guilds anymore. Completely different type of people.

That said, WoW vanilla had some pretty rough content and while some of it was gear checks and the like, a lot of it was about finding the perfect storm in a given fight. I remember doing resist check fights with 1/2 the gear people said was required and it was because we applied different strategies. People get blinders on thinking there is only one way to beat a fight. There are some gear restraints, but the rest is approach and group makeup.

 

Yep, it was bad enough that you had to be responsible for a bunch if idiots who for some reason defied learning basic concepts at every turn, but to hear them throw tantrums was the worst. One guy went on about how hey plays games for "his fun" and how we were getting in the way of "his fun" by ordering him to do certain things in the raid. What killed me was to hear people bitch about how it was too much to ask them to show up on a day/time to raid that was coordinated and worked to accommodate everyone as much as possible. I would hear them go off about how "they had a life", how they "worked for a living", how "they don't have time to schedule for some stupid game". I mean... seriously, if that is the case, what the fuck are they doing playing games in the first place? I really despise that generation of gamers that came from the WoW influx. I preferred it in the early days where most people who were playing were actually hobbiest, had built their own computer from scratch, worked in some technical field, you know... were actual nerds, not some neck beard "Big Bang Theory" wannabee.

 

None of the games out there are worth playing, much less raiding. Besides, if I want the feeling of running a raid with today's gamer generation, I will go manage a daycare.