Incline WORLD'S GREATEST GENERIC RPG BLOBBER ENGINE : "VAULT OF TERROR"

[50726f73706572]

Cleveland Mark Blakemore

I'll have to defer to your greater experience of turning vaporware into solid gold, but remember that every link you forge in unity's editor is one that can serve to imprison you for eternity.

 

[Netch]

My plan, which I formed 30 years ago today, was to generate tons of good, fun blobbers in various genres with the most efficient tools ... then sit back and see which meets with the greatest response and is most enjoyed by players. This drives the decisions to do sequels and import your former party. So if the first Lovecraftian Mythos does well then players may have a real hunger to see a second and third and I may leave off the Horror/Superhero theme at just one game each.

This Grimoire prequel/reboot is designed to be exactly like one of the old D&D short campaigns - I am even working on a splash screen that makes it appear this is just another adventure in the Grimoire Roleplaying System. I am also channeling a sort of EYE OF THE BEHOLDER feel at the beginning.

NPCs are now very different from before and really focus on dialogue and interaction, many of them are not murderable and are there to advance the story. After a long time thinking about it I decided this was the best way to capture the graphic comic book/narrative design I wanted. Many people will be glad to hear I went to dialogue trees and am throwing out the full sentence typing.

This Grimoire adventure will be much smaller in scope, far less open world and is aimed at around 60 hours to complete. Hopefully it will be followed by many, many more. The better the tools, the faster I can crank them out. This game will be more akin to this in tabletop based roleplaying :

View attachment 20203

P.S. The thing that really got me excited this last weekend was getting the procedural generation tools working. Instead of editing a wall at a time on a four-wall cell for 25 years in Grimoire, I just specify 6 rooms with three exits and at least one chest with random treasure from this loot table. Then I add a few features and what used to take me three weeks to edit in Grimoire now takes me thirty seconds in this engine.

This is very interesting stuff, Cleve. Definitely sounds like something that could be really revolutionary for independent CRPG development in general. I would be curious to know if you plan on releasing this system/these tools to the public, or if you are developing them for personal use only. If its the former I imagine we could see a big resurgence in blobbers which would be incredible.

 

[Morblot]

%DEVELOPER% is talking about rebooting their beloved game, moving it to 3D, streamlining and simplifying it for mass appeal, and doing small episodic games instead of a big open world one. Considering that, the Codex's response has been surprisingly mellow so far, except for Fluent, who of course is excited like the retarded faggy little puppy he is. I'm suddenly feeling less optimistic.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

My plan, which I formed 30 years ago today, was to generate tons of good, fun blobbers in various genres with the most efficient tools ... then sit back and see which meets with the greatest response and is most enjoyed by players. This drives the decisions to do sequels and import your former party. So if the first Lovecraftian Mythos does well then players may have a real hunger to see a second and third and I may leave off the Horror/Superhero theme at just one game each.

This Grimoire prequel/reboot is designed to be exactly like one of the old D&D short campaigns - I am even working on a splash screen that makes it appear this is just another adventure in the Grimoire Roleplaying System. I am also channeling a sort of EYE OF THE BEHOLDER feel at the beginning.

NPCs are now very different from before and really focus on dialogue and interaction, many of them are not murderable and are there to advance the story. After a long time thinking about it I decided this was the best way to capture the graphic comic book/narrative design I wanted. Many people will be glad to hear I went to dialogue trees and am throwing out the full sentence typing.

This Grimoire adventure will be much smaller in scope, far less open world and is aimed at around 60 hours to complete. Hopefully it will be followed by many, many more. The better the tools, the faster I can crank them out. This game will be more akin to this in tabletop based roleplaying :

View attachment 20203

P.S. The thing that really got me excited this last weekend was getting the procedural generation tools working. Instead of editing a wall at a time on a four-wall cell for 25 years in Grimoire, I just specify 6 rooms with three exits and at least one chest with random treasure from this loot table. Then I add a few features and what used to take me three weeks to edit in Grimoire now takes me thirty seconds in this engine.

This is very interesting stuff, Cleve. Definitely sounds like something that could be really revolutionary for independent CRPG development in general. I would be curious to know if you plan on releasing this system/these tools to the public, or if you are developing them for personal use only. If its the former I imagine we could see a big resurgence in blobbers which would be incredible.

Some purists may be offended but I have integrated a Quest/Task system into the game on day one. I actually used this excellent open source library for Unity and completely integrated it into the blobber RPG engine logic :

https://github.com/devdogio/Quest-System-Pro

... and I found I was able to add achievements so easily once this was integrated with my RPG code that they tend to naturally migrate into gameplay now. I have various badges pop up to announce them and this will also be easy to integrate into Steam and GOG cheevos. Again, some grognards may be horrified by this news but combining both worlds of noob and hardcore has been my goal.

I would be able to think long term about releasing it as open source but other modules (like Panoply for cutscenes) are proprietary. It might be possible to extract the cutscene logic out to an abstract instance that developers could use other modules for. I have not done this yet because Panoply has been fantastic for inserting little segueways into the game like LANDS OF LORE that feature limited interaction with a point'n'click puzzle solving challenge etc. ... all blobbers should have segueways like this. Even EOB had them but with simply two menu choice options that add enormously to the flavor of the game.

 

[WhiteShark]

I've got enough of the prior rules converted over that you can already see in combats that the math (from FUDGE) results in superb performance over my original engine in C++. As your skillz and attributes increase, the bell curve bulges on the right side and everything becomes not evenly distributed but is more and more like to succeed every time at every action but even the highest skillz can fail once in a while or the toughest monster can still be hit even by a level one noob swinging a wet towel. Way better texture to the combat turns and it just "feels" right which many people have said about FUDGE & FATE. I've got a debug HUD running too, which is something that was desperately needed in Grimoire which I tried to insert with the cheat codez. I can actually interrupt a combat, bump up a skill by one FUDGE point then watch the battle progress with better results instantly. I should have built this substructure on day one for Grimoire but I was still learning.

What inspired you to go with FUDGE dice rules and what do the curves look like? Do you think it's superior to the GURPS 3d6 model?

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

I've got enough of the prior rules converted over that you can already see in combats that the math (from FUDGE) results in superb performance over my original engine in C++. As your skillz and attributes increase, the bell curve bulges on the right side and everything becomes not evenly distributed but is more and more like to succeed every time at every action but even the highest skillz can fail once in a while or the toughest monster can still be hit even by a level one noob swinging a wet towel. Way better texture to the combat turns and it just "feels" right which many people have said about FUDGE & FATE. I've got a debug HUD running too, which is something that was desperately needed in Grimoire which I tried to insert with the cheat codez. I can actually interrupt a combat, bump up a skill by one FUDGE point then watch the battle progress with better results instantly. I should have built this substructure on day one for Grimoire but I was still learning.

What inspired you to go with FUDGE dice rules and what do the curves look like? Do you think it's superior to the GURPS 3d6 model?

That FUDGE curve increases with a heavy gravity as the attribute increases and the lookup table is also very compatible with % percentiles 0-100 so it seems to be it is probably the greatest RPG math probability curve ever created. The -1/0/+1 weights are so well balanced in that lookup table that you cannot complain about the results for the player. The 3D6 model is just a 3D6 model. There's no spin on it which makes it kind of unsatisfying for roleplaying games.

This is actually the only useful page on Wikipedia and it is even accurate ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fudge_(role-playing_game_system)

 

[Fluent]

Hey Cleve. Can u say what the first blobber u release will be? The Lovecraftian one or a Grimoire remake or something else?

 

[Yosharian]

Reading this thread explains so much about Grimoire

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Reading this thread explains so much about Grimoire

Bah you don't even know what you don't know.

 

[InSight]

The game has six slots for party characters, another two that can be reserved for the party's PET (!) and one slot for recruited NPCs like EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. You have to keep a slot open if you want to summon monsters in combat. You cannot dismiss your original party (investment in your characters from start to end) and the only party characters that can be dismissed are the pet and a recruited character.

Why such limit of party members? why not extend it to 10 at least, how many dungeon crawlers/"blobbers" allow such degree of units?(excluding strategy and tactic games often in top view/perspective.) That is to say why not offer a thing/feature/extent that no or rarely been provided by other games of its type/kind?

All these units do not have to be active in battle at once/same time to lessen decision bloat/micromanagement. They can be divided into active/front and inactive/back-line. With the ability/function to swap units mid battle as situation/condition allow, juggle between them. The none-active character could support with specific abilities to their position based passive/active abilities. If a party venture is akin to expedition, then the back up party members fill the role of camp followers.

One could also put a limit on the commands/controls per turn with such increase in party size. 4 can be a good indicator since many/often incorporated in turned based party games. This opens also greater variety in encounter design.
One could also add a mass/global type command such as all defend, all charge/attack, all step back/flee, at cetre/so on... and then micro manage the needed units. Party members could have even their own base AI pattern/behavior reflecting their characteristics(darkest dungeon comes to mind).

From viewing Grimore manually clicking/setting all the commands every time anew is tedious/a bore/a hassle despite the variety of attack methods when the encounters(at least these at start) do not warrant much changes in attack orders. Can there be an automation system in place such as a tablet that can be filled with commands and be set for each encounter. As a programmer, what would it require? One would imagine it would also serve in instructing/ordering/tuning the AI.

A developer should consider the players time/effort per simulation(and its variety) provided by the game. Other wise why should a player stick/continue with the game. What would have been your experience if you were to solve the same math problem 2+2=4 over and over gain typing/drawing the answer in the slowest way imaginable with no improvement of time spent(less=better) and what would the effect on the brain would be? smarter/dumber, stimulated or not stimulated?

A playtime of 60 hour seems long , much of its length i attribute to bloat, in older days when computer games fewer and less frequent, such design had justification/reason. In today's time, with such amount of games and of better quality and often in less time spent, unless they were exposed to such games in childhood/1st/of their times, their is less incentive's to play them. Why would even experienced player play a copy(even if it is a well done copy, a league above compared to others) without it offering MORE compared to its peers/different games and different genres(aside visual difference)? Unless you have already mentioned to make games to that specific type of player, obsession of copying poor design seems a poor decision to me. At least their are easy to make compared to other genres. They are more CRPG's(including rpg maker made games) than their is FPS or RTS games as example.
Should one copy the design of older cars when better, more capable car designs exist and/or improve/refine/advance them?

Note:One should also make distinction/difference between significant/major/impactful to insignificant/minor/lesser features.

If the above cannot be done simply due the limits of one man/developer, that is reasonable. Some features need to have been considered/factored/built from the ground up and would require a team. Easily said/written/noticed, hardly done.

 

[Lady Error]

From viewing Grimore manually clicking/setting all the commands every time anew is tedious/a bore/a hassle despite the variety of attack methods when the encounters(at least these at start) do not warrant much changes in attack orders. Can there be an automation system in place

Grimoire already has that, unlike most other blobbers. The commands from the last round are remembered and repeated, unless you change them.

A playtime of 60 hour seems long

No, it doesn't. It's pretty short actually. And personally, I like at least some open world spaces in blobbers instead of being reailroaded.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

One of the dilemmas I have is that I spent a lot of work on a game using this engine but with my 2D resources. This is how I got it debugged well enough that it finally hit me how to incorporate 3D monsters and NPCs. I am talking a good five months working on that alone, just testing and hacking on the engine to test it. It's not finished but it is about 75% and it's got a couple thousand dollars worth of 2D resources in it I have saved for years for this very purpose. Should I release this game first ?

P.S. It's not really in a finished state because it only has 4 spells in it at present and there are other big gaps I didn't worry about while I was coding. I made simple things like magic missile and fireball just to test it.

Spoiler

It's a reboot of VAULT OF TERROR, my original C-64 dungeon crawler. Colossally improved. VOT reimagined as a Wizardry style game.

 

[InSight]

Grimoire already has that, unlike most other blobbers. The commands from the last round are remembered and repeated, unless you change them.

Better than expected, but it still limited to the rounds. Unless Grimoire doesn't require "grinding"/repetition , you could succeed/bypass/win the fight of the starter area where bandits block to entrance/road to town with wise usage of abilities available to level 1 party, One has to assume it would be tedious/hassle to constantly apply the same commands by mouse over and over with no/less variety(not need to change tactics) in fight encounter (worms by recollection). Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne and Suikoden(1/ 2) has an Auto battle feature that lessens the tedium.

If the above is not true/correct, How many levels it would require, and what usage of classes, the comparable time spent?

No, it doesn't. It's pretty short actually

When compared to dungeon crawlers CRPG but when compared generally/overall/globaly to many genres or the top/masterful/highly regarded CRPG such as Fallout (1997), the play time is long or of moderate length thus it is odd/misleading to call this short for these not used to dungeon crawlers.

And on what basis is the estimate is given? because when factoring/considering trails and error experimentation and grind(and over grinding), one can assume the length to increase at least by 50% longer than what as stated.

One should not view generally long length as negative/bad. I do not have examples of hand/memory of many great/good/masterful games reaching such length/playtime(without replay). On a basis that if a good/positive game provided a good/positive/simulating experience than would one not want/prefer it to be as longer over shorter?

The issue that i cannot fathom/imagine for one man/developer to provide a game warranting 60 hour without being stale, even it is considered "short length game" compared to its ilk/kind/like. Not without bloating/stretching as balloons or bubblegum do. One can link/compare it to manufacturers adding fillers to supplements to increase their bulk/size often diminishing/diluting/negating the good in them and some of these fillers are harmful. An a example i read about: garlic supplements being thick, including soy in its ingredients , MSM specifics i do not recall or slow dose in Melatonin.

A shorter length that offer more pact/more variety instead of a longer length offering less, the same over and over, is better.
Shortening the length is incline/a step in the right direction , it is simple not shorted enough to what generally/often has been provided/already done many times without improvement in the experience/simulation/stimulation. I assume these games could be shortened/refined to 30-40 hours without losing much of worth.
Which is why i offered such suggestion which i assume within the capabilities of Cleve if a goal of creating better game is included.

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UNITY+3D

WHAT SAY YOU CODEX?

UNITY:
While Blaine and others offered explanation on Unity's fault, every tool capable of lifting a burden is to be welcomed/appreciated. Mankind operates/function within a set limit/frequency of energy. Lifting the need of energy at one place, can allow it to invested in another place/area or improving an existing aspect of the game, taking it to a greater length/height/depth.

While engine built for specific purpose/games be superior/better, it is a task suited/best afforded by a team of veteran developers or cooperation for creating a game engine is a severe/great undertaking.

3D:

• 3d offer/allow more consistency in graphic thus can allow more immersive world.
  
• Consider/factoring that their is a store of 3d models and such models can come with animations it would means the game can/is capable of providing more. The minor issue if the player/user have seen these models before hand, lessening the awe of the game/world/craft leaving the way in which they are used as good/bad indicator.
• By using others assets its means even if indirectly( compared to assumed/standard teams) it becomes more of a team effort/contribution(reminder that even the language one uses is passed down/made by others).
  
• Good/Detailed/complex Drawn by hand are expensive/take long to produce and are limited to specific side/view point.
  
• Unless a simple turned based CRPG offer good graphics/pleasing visuals(the lowest graphics would be text and numbers and blocky/low-resolution pixels) it is usually not worth playing to me. Exception for these that added a mechanic that was not done before in the genre(improved the genre/expanded its borders) such as Darkest Dungeon's macro/major stress mechanic or minor/micro slain bodies as obstacles.
  
• Assuming the 3d models that will be used in the game are made by professionals/experts thus good looking thus it can make grind tolerable.

On 1st impression both are positive/good/wise decisions.

 

[GandGolf]

Cleveland Mark Blakemore
How long do you think will it take to port Grimoire to the new engine?

You better hope he doesn't port the original Grimoire over to the new engine. If he did he would end up breaking all save game compatibility.

 

[Lady Error]

Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne and Suikoden(1/ 2) has an Auto battle feature that lessens the tedium.

First of all, it'd help a lot if you cut down the amount of text you write and just focus on what you want to say. Despite the length of your posts it is often difficult to tell what your point is.

Secondly, an Auto-Battle feature may be an interesting addition. Older classic RPG's like Realms of Arkania 2 had it as well.

Thirdly, if you find blobber fights tedious even when the commands are remembered from last round, then maybe it is not the best genre for you.

And on what basis is the estimate is given?

On the basis that the original Grimoire was advertised to have up to 600 hours of gameplay, which realistically were about 100-200 hours at most for most people. Quicker playthroughs of about 70-80 hours are also possible.

It may be a good idea to have shorter blobbers that are sort of like campaigns where you can import your party from the previous one. And the shorter length also provides the ooportunity to create several different blobbers and then make sequels for the ones that are most successful. I am not against that.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

Hey Cleve. Can u say what the first blobber u release will be? The Lovecraftian one or a Grimoire remake or something else?

I've invested so much time into the prototype I think I am going to go ahead and finish it as a proof-of-concept using all 2D artwork like Eliminage Gothic. The 3d is working but much harder to organize, whereas the 2D version is working near perfectly. This way I can get a game out in a short time frame before further modification of the engine. Top quality 2D art, no placeholders. The battles are also quite animated and have a lot of effects like Eliminage Gothic.

I am going to do an retro early Wizardry style title first in a fantasy vein.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

A playtime of 60 hour seems long

60 hours is on the very short side
less than 300 hours is barely an RPG

 

[Alter Sack]

Hey Cleve. Can u say what the first blobber u release will be? The Lovecraftian one or a Grimoire remake or something else?

I've invested so much time into the prototype I think I am going to go ahead and finish it as a proof-of-concept using all 2D artwork like Eliminage Gothic. The 3d is working but much harder to organize, whereas the 2D version is working near perfectly. This way I can get a game out in a short time frame before further modification of the engine. Top quality 2D art, no placeholders. The battles are also quite animated and have a lot of effects like Eliminage Gothic.

I am going to do an retro early Wizardry style title first in a fantasy vein.

Do you plan to do game development full time, Cleve?

With a good pipeline that allows you to release titles relative quickly it seems feasible.

I mean you are a very good programmer and writer so you can cover most aspects of game development yourself.

 

[Fluent]

I've invested so much time into the prototype I think I am going to go ahead and finish it as a proof-of-concept using all 2D artwork like Eliminage Gothic. The 3d is working but much harder to organize, whereas the 2D version is working near perfectly. This way I can get a game out in a short time frame before further modification of the engine. Top quality 2D art, no placeholders. The battles are also quite animated and have a lot of effects like Eliminage Gothic.

I am going to do an retro early Wizardry style title first in a fantasy vein.

Cleve, that sounds absolutely fantastic. While I am eagerly awaiting the 3D version, a 2D Elminage-like with unique art and early Wizardry style is exactly the kind of game I will love. Thank you man, truly, for sharing your love with all of us very lucky gamers. You are really doing The Lord's work here, and we appreciate you. Looking forward to this and whatever else you come up with as I'm sure it will be great stuff. Cheers! <3

P.S. I'll also be doing a Grimoire: Heralds Of The Winged Exemplar Let's Play for my YouTube channel. It's coming very soon, with the first episode examining the manual and how the game works. I plan on completing the game but foremost enjoying the journey, all captured in a YouTube LP. I'll link you to the first episode when it's live.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

Hey Cleve. Can u say what the first blobber u release will be? The Lovecraftian one or a Grimoire remake or something else?

I've invested so much time into the prototype I think I am going to go ahead and finish it as a proof-of-concept using all 2D artwork like Eliminage Gothic. The 3d is working but much harder to organize, whereas the 2D version is working near perfectly. This way I can get a game out in a short time frame before further modification of the engine. Top quality 2D art, no placeholders. The battles are also quite animated and have a lot of effects like Eliminage Gothic.

I am going to do an retro early Wizardry style title first in a fantasy vein.

Do you plan to do game development full time, Cleve?

With a good pipeline that allows you to release titles relative quickly it seems feasible.

I mean you are a very good programmer and writer so you can cover most aspects of game development yourself.

I wish I could release an RPG every 25 days on Steam instead of every 25 years. I've had moments over the last 6 months thinking I am being anal retentive trying to make this RPG kit so generic, flexible and focused on blobbers. I was worried it was delusional and a waste of time ... but you could say this about any enthusiasm. It has given me a little confidence hearing the response on this thread, I've been working on it hard every day now for 8-10 hours. I have just sucked it up and tried to concentrate on turning my initial crude experiments for POST-ATOMIC (will now be released after this fantasy game for sure using this engine) into the exact toolkit I dreamed of. Skills, abilities, attributes all object oriented and not even part of enumerations!! (Grimoire has a million enumerations and it all made sure the engine would have little to no flexibility when completed)

I thought the original smart plan would be ... release a great 2D blobber with this engine ... then another with a little more complexity in the engine (perks, traits) ... then another with even more complexity ... then with true 3D ... then with true 3D and very complex mechanics all in a generic wrapper ... so this engine could support fantasy, horror, sci-fi, pulp, vintage, detective and even really offbeat adventures as blobbers. I've got this idea for a blobber set in a mental institution where all the party members think they are superheroes and you go around inside the hospital recruiting your team like the magnificent seven western.

This is now my entire focus, interleaved with an occasional break to work on the vax/analog horror game inspired by PENUMBRA.

 

[InSight]

I've been working on it hard every day now for 8-10 hours.

Consider this an issue, you should have a day completely dedicated to rest which is the sabbath from Friday sunset to Saturday/sabbath sunset. No work in the household, no cooking(cook the day before), buying or selling and no planning. Exceptions are good deeds such as saving lives.
It is the 4th commandment that animals such as beavers and bee's keep according to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49T5unQEIbY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwayR5gkh7c

One could read/find many noticeable benefits such as these that keep the sabbath living longer.
It is part of the biological mechanism/system/cycle according to https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1158613/jewish/The-Biological-Shabbat-Clock.htm

Doctors have long observed that response to malaria infection and pneumonia crisis peaked at seven days. Organ transplants face similar crises as the body's immune system attack the foreign organ.

When a human patient receives a kidney transplant, there is a rhythm of about seven days, a predictable rise and fall in the probability that the body's immune system will reject the new kidney. A major peak of rejection occurs seven days after the operation, and when a serum is given to suppress the immune reaction, a series of peaks occurs, with increasing risk of rejection, at one week, two weeks, three weeks and at four weeks.

One might wonder whether all these biorhythms are simply marching to the rhythm of a cultural cause - i.e., the fact that people keep time according to weekly schedules, but this is apparently not to the case.

Give it a test/try if you have not. Full rest at the Sabbath may equal many days of rest(efficiency). Consider it an overall application of a body building principles/habits/methods, the body (including the mind) cannot repair/build/develop itself while stressed. Perhaps it will boost your productivity.

edit note: added no "buying or sellings", its point/goal is that the living should rest(not work).

 

[Fluent]

Cleve...

Cleve. I'm only a few hours into Grimoire and...man. You are something ELSE, family!! WOW. I don't even know what to say. The amount of love and effort and wonderfulness you crammed into this game is just unbelievable. Cleve, can you be my uncle? No seriously. I will play any blobber or CRPG you make until the end of my days. Cross my heart and hope to die. You are something else...

Unbelievable.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Excuse me Mr. Blakemore, is this man bothering you?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Excuse me Mr. Blakemore, is this man bothering you?

Sure as hell bothering everyone else.

 

[Morblot]

Excuse me Mr. Blakemore, is this man bothering you?

"man"