X-COM XCOM 2 + War of the Chosen Expansion Thread

[Freddie]

Stopped reading at "save scummed".

Fuck off, will you.

 

[Galdred]

Spoiler

BTW, I wanted to add recurring enemy lieutnants in my own game (it was something I really liked in Descent), so that would be close to the way chosen work, but I was wondering what do you think about them never dying?
Is getting a reward for dispatching them enough or is it too frustrating?

I could add a contingency spell: teleport away when the character is about to get killed, and it would work the same mechanically.
In descent RTL v1, lieutnants were very hard to pull back from combat: if you wanted to use them in battle as the overlord, there was a big risk of them being cornered and butchered by the heroes, so they ended up leading from the rear, and fleeing as soon as the heroes approached (unless the overlord had been able to massive "out tech" the heroes), which was not very epic.
It was especially true with the melee lieutenants who could not trade a single blow against the heroes without a risk of being blocked and slain.

Given that the heroes are linked to their Stronghold (ie: losing a hero let you turn one of your other characters into a new hero as long as you still control the relevant stronghold), I intend to give a similar benefit to the lieutenants: the only way to thin their number would be to storm it (so it would really work pretty close to the way Chosen work).

I am considering 3 options:
a) Make them like the Chosen: teleport away on defeat, get healed for a relatively long time before they can act again
b) Set their "plot bar" advancement back on defeat. The plot bar would act like XCOM2 knowledge bar (basically, they are trying to achieve their own "master plan", like imbuing themselves with massive power, summoning a demonic host, or magically breaching the defenses of the player stronghold).
c) Kill them outright, but let the bad guys summon a fresh lieutenant to replace the dead one. So that would act like a more extreme version of b), but that would mean we would need generic lieutenants (because we could quickly run out of named ones).

What do you think would work best?

Assuming your bad guy/rival factions perform missions of their own, perhaps the death of one of their lieutenants means they'll have to wait for some grunt to distinguish himself in combat, so they can train this grunt to replace the lieutenant? Basically a reprieve until the replace can match or exceed his predecessor.

Actually, it would be similar to what happens on hero character death: when one character hero dies, an ascension ritual could turn a grunt (equivalent to Mordheim's henchmen) to a hero. We can make the same for the bad guys indeed, and maling the ritual take time would give a fitting penalty for both (the rationale between the hero/henchmen dichotomy was to avoid the game being too dependant on keeping high level characters alive).

Why not use all three ideas?
a) Let them retreat from overwhelming odds, just like the player can. But also allow them to act again before they are fully healed.
b) Set back the 'plot bar' on defeat (not retreat).
c) Dead is dead, unless you have some sort of bleeding out mechanic you could apply to enemies too. (Might be an interesting choice to allow the enemy to save their champion because you like the traits it rolled vs. the rewards for killing it. In an extraction mission you may not have the ability to hold your position for another 3 rounds until the enemy finishes dying.)
d) Basically, I think fighting the same 3 enemies over and over is less interesting than seeing new combinations of traits. For a more guided experience, the traits could be semi-random. Similar to how the player will train a Ranger if all their Rangers die, but not all Rangers are exactly the same.

you mean b) if the mission is a sucess for the player? It makes sense indeed that it is not tied to the lieutenant death.
Bleeding out and forcing the player to prevent healer to access the spot sounds like a good idea actually. I will try to implement it.

 

[Freddie]

I build Resistance Ring and GTS first. But then started scavenging deep into Avenger, my plan was that in the time scavenging was done I would have the required supplies to build something in spaces and I could use supplies and stuff to get upgrades from GTS and Engineering. Went towards first power node available and against most advices I didn't built neither Shadow chamber nor PSI labs on it but Power relay because it was in the end of third row. Then went for old tactic to built Workshop in the middle, later I put Infirmary on top of workshop, coms to the left Power Relay being on the right and finally Defence Matrix below Workshop. Over time it paid itself back pretty well because getting Engineer was much slower process than on my Veteran run.

Workshop is a trap option. For +1 engineer that can only be deployed adjacent (i.e. you have to plan it that way, and therefore likely delay certain builds), you gave up one prime spot that could have been building something else, power, and resources to build it. In vanilla, engineer is ~100 intel in BM, which is 1.5 missions worth. I just don't see workshop being worth building in any situation.

It's a rush option with when you compromise some of your weapon research with other investments. See what I did there, only one Avenger power relay (I built Shadow Chamber on other node and gambled that I get Avenger Power Order or equivalent later in game, it worked). I can see what you mean, but when you don't have those potential engineers to begin with, it's practically no choice, because Gremlins take over tasks in facilities and you use your other one to scavenge resources. In the end my campaign was approx 36 days longer than average. Thing is, I spent fucking two months doing more or less unnecessary optimising of my squad while waiting for the Alien Rulers to show up (because I miss couple of achievements regarding them). Of course over time I got more Engineers and demolished Workshop and built Labs because there weren't anything else to build any more. :-P

Some features don't work.

See my mod list in this thread for all the bug fixes to the problems you mentioned. Checking steam workshop every now and then is also a good habit.

I appreciate a lot of what modders too, but my point was that there is something terrible wrong when there are people who are paid to do tech and customer services, but in the end it's modders who fix the stuff. Besides, they delivered a product that crashes because it tries to write data where it shouldn't, not only on PC but on both, Xbox and PS. Kinda even makes one wonder what's the point of consoles in this sort of environment any more.

 

[Alienman]

Met my first alien ruler. Was a bit terrifying. It was the flying one. He starts by kidnapping a zombie and Bradford goes all ballistic - HE KIDNAPPED ONE OF YOU, YOU MUST DO SOMETHING! Bradford, it's time to cut down on the booze, okay? Anyway, my turn... thinking I start with my high damage dealing sniper girl and go on from there and well, the execute thing procs. First shot and all that HP just gone. Kinda anti-climatic but a relief at the same time

 

[ArchAngel]

Repeater is the single biggest cheese in vanilla. Marbozir said as much way back when X2 first launched.

It is even bigger cheese in WotC as now you can get up to 20% chance to execute.

 

[Silva]

I dont remember feeling so conflicted about a game. On one hand the gameplay is one of the best I've seen in a strategy game. On the other, the presentation is horrendous. No really, this is a new low. UI is ugly and confusing, and the new opponents are silly/juvenile and obtrusive, throwing the overall tone of the game in the gutter. I mean, I actually liked the original theme of jagged resistance fighters, even if it was timidly depicted. But this expansion throws that away and makes a bad hollywoodian super-heroes movie out of it. It's so bad it's embarrassing.

Which leads me to my next point: American nerdculture must die. It's been corrupting media that could be otherwise nice with it's silly comic book heroes and tolkieneske shittiness for ages. Imagine a game like this with the artistic flair of Stalker or This War of Mine. It would be epic. But no, we must cater to American nerds and their comic book villains with black-white morality.

 

[Nirvash]

Nah, they look like 80-90 sunday morning cartoons villains and xcom always had that style.

WOTC is like sci-fi gi joe.

 

[Silva]

Could be. Maybe I was LARPing all this time that Xcom was some semi-serious cool as fuck take on rebels. I have a strong imagination.

But I can't LARP with those horrid villain speeches poping up each 5 min. Is there a way to turn it off?

 

[Galdred]

Not sure XCOM feel like super heroes: They sell their opponent corpses when they don't reprocess them as raw materials, and display their heads as trophies, including the clearly sentient ones (Sectoid, Chosen, Advent, Ethereal).
They also don't take prisoner, unlike their opponents.

Could be. Maybe I was LARPing all this time that Xcom was some semi-serious cool as fuck take on rebels. I have a strong imagination.

But I can't LARP with those horrid villain speeches poping up each 5 min. Is there a way to turn it off?

There is one actually. This mod will "only" cut 80% of their dialogue, but you can configure it to go up to 100%. I thinl 95% is the sweet spot.

 

[ArchAngel]

Not sure XCOM feel like super heroes: They sell their opponent corpses when they don't reprocess them as raw materials, and display their heads as trophies, including the clearly sentient ones (Sectoid, Chosen, Advent, Ethereal).
They also don't take prisoner, unlike their opponents.

Could be. Maybe I was LARPing all this time that Xcom was some semi-serious cool as fuck take on rebels. I have a strong imagination.

But I can't LARP with those horrid villain speeches poping up each 5 min. Is there a way to turn it off?

There is one actually. This mod will "only" cut 80% of their dialogue, but you can configure it to go up to 100%. I thinl 95% is the sweet spot.

I think he talked about the 3 new classes, those do feel more like superheroes than jagged resistance fighters.

 

[Freddie]

[..] and the new opponents are silly/juvenile and obtrusive, throwing the overall tone of the game in the gutter. I mean, I actually liked the original theme of jagged resistance fighters, even if it was timidly depicted. But this expansion throws that away and makes a bad hollywoodian super-heroes movie out of it. It's so bad it's embarrassing.

Which leads me to my next point: American nerdculture must die. It's been corrupting media that could be otherwise nice with it's silly comic book heroes and tolkieneske shittiness for ages. Imagine a game like this with the artistic flair of Stalker or This War of Mine. It would be epic. But no, we must cater to American nerds and their comic book villains with black-white morality.

It's like some sort of twisted parallel reality where Firaxis hypes stuff pre-release like Chosen taunting you, and then it comes apparent that these guys bought up their own hype. I mean for non discount price of about € 40 how much of this content is actually... fluff? What comes to style, I'm not that surprised. I mean for fucks sake, these guys put tits on a snake

I don't know if American nerd culture has to die, I feel bit of a threshold to put blame on gamers because I participated in this decline by buying this product as well. But I just wish that British and say Poles, European developers in general would get better and get better at networking and marketing.

I don't believe original UFO or TftD style and design had anything to do with superheroes, if anything outlandish, near future design which is entirely different thing. I don't know how much Gollop really cared about graphical presentation, even though it looked good on standards of those days, design was served abstraction and served also other practical purposes like players being able to distinguish different enemy units not only from each other but from background, props, effects, etc. I think part of the nuXCOM design ideas may stem from there. It just that with HD resolutions and power to bring and animate stuff on those, I sometimes feel Firaxis went perhaps quite far.

 

[J1M]

I've always felt that couching XCOM 2 in a "resistance" motif was a mistake. It is believable that a united planet might be able to repel small alien incursions. A few people in a damaged transport barge? Not so much.

The high volume of non-alien enemies (advent, mechs) also hurts the game because it strips away the terror of fighting the unknown. Looking forward to a more cohesive (and different) enemy in XCOM 3.

PS: The lost felt like dumb game length padding designed to make the new classes look 'cool'.

 

[Silva]

Yeah I'm loving the game, but still not convinced of some features value. The Lost, Bonds and Stamina/Tired systems feel more a sidestep than a step in the right direction. It does look like WotC is this big primordial soap on purpose, so Firaxis can see what works or not for a future Xcom3.

By the way, am I right to infer the Templar is the most OP of the resistance soldiers, while Skirmishers are the worst? I'm midway in the game so I could be wrong.

 

[J1M]

I found them all useless, but that could be because I was more interested in upgrading the primary weapons.

 

[sser]

I've always felt that couching XCOM 2 in a "resistance" motif was a mistake. It is believable that a united planet might be able to repel small alien incursions. A few people in a damaged transport barge? Not so much.

The high volume of non-alien enemies (advent, mechs) also hurts the game because it strips away the terror of fighting the unknown. Looking forward to a more cohesive (and different) enemy in XCOM 3.

PS: The lost felt like dumb game length padding designed to make the new classes look 'cool'.

Yeah, you gotta suspend your disbelief a little bit. I don't mind the human enemies, it's a nice change-up. The concept itself would be much better executed in a game with way more technical features. XCOM2's all about feeling like a resistance fighter, but that largely boils down to a 'Concealment' phase which is extremely shallow.

That said, I haven't played super far into WotC. I've only faced the Chosen twice now and still only have 1 scientist/1 engineer and I've barely touched XCOM2 in general since it was so... souring. I still have a hard time getting over the 'pod' gameplay. It is just too simplistic and degenerate for me.

 

[Trash Player]

I've always felt that couching XCOM 2 in a "resistance" motif was a mistake. It is believable that a united planet might be able to repel small alien incursions. A few people in a damaged transport barge? Not so much.

The high volume of non-alien enemies (advent, mechs) also hurts the game because it strips away the terror of fighting the unknown. Looking forward to a more cohesive (and different) enemy in XCOM 3.

PS: The lost felt like dumb game length padding designed to make the new classes look 'cool'.

Gameplaywise, I do think the resistance theme works better for Solomon and Co.'s design philosophy. Your soldiers are a bunch of decorated superheroes instead of fodder grunts. The first game without LW have hard time justifying the small squadsize. That interception minigame is also a missed opportunity.

 

[ArchAngel]

Yeah I'm loving the game, but still not convinced of some features value. The Lost, Bonds and Stamina/Tired systems feel more a sidestep than a step in the right direction. It does look like WotC is this big primordial soap on purpose, so Firaxis can see what works or not for a future Xcom3.

By the way, am I right to infer the Templar is the most OP of the resistance soldiers, while Skirmishers are the worst? I'm midway in the game so I could be wrong.

Templar is best early game and still useful mid game. Skirmisher is most useful mid game. Reaper becomes most useful in late mid game (where it can kill in addition to scouting).
In end game party a ranger with assassin's sword can replace the templar. This character can also scout and replace Reaper. I would only keep Skirmisher because if you keep his ripjack on mag weapon tech it stuns on hit and you can do that to two enemies. He can also give bonus actions to others and he has his own version of bladestorm.

 

[Freddie]

Met my first alien ruler. Was a bit terrifying. It was the flying one. He starts by kidnapping a zombie and Bradford goes all ballistic - HE KIDNAPPED ONE OF YOU, YOU MUST DO SOMETHING! Bradford, it's time to cut down on the booze, okay? Anyway, my turn... thinking I start with my high damage dealing sniper girl and go on from there and well, the execute thing procs. First shot and all that HP just gone. Kinda anti-climatic but a relief at the same time

Can you elaborate about the time frame in campaign when Rulers appeared to you?

Like I wrote earlier, I they didn't appeared at all in either of my WotC PL's and it bothers me a bit if my speculation about their campaign content is right or not. Do they appear at the same time with the Chosen and that you can't delay their missions to deal with them in late game?

I mean, I think it's big deal considering the DLC's synergy.

BTW: I made my Trolollol Reaper build sort of back up solution for Rulers and achievement I don't have yet if you kill one of them when you first encounter it. For me, build per se didn't bother me at all, even though I didn't needed to use her ability even in the finale. For me though it's is like "Yo, Firaxis, I heard you liked cheese, so I made this Expanded Mag with Superiour Repeater Reaper build with Banish, so you can have more cheese in your cheese." I feel it's like some sort of a matter of principle that when given stuff like this, they HAS TO BE TRIED! Just because it's there.

 

[ArchAngel]

Met my first alien ruler. Was a bit terrifying. It was the flying one. He starts by kidnapping a zombie and Bradford goes all ballistic - HE KIDNAPPED ONE OF YOU, YOU MUST DO SOMETHING! Bradford, it's time to cut down on the booze, okay? Anyway, my turn... thinking I start with my high damage dealing sniper girl and go on from there and well, the execute thing procs. First shot and all that HP just gone. Kinda anti-climatic but a relief at the same time

Can you elaborate about the time frame in campaign when Rulers appeared to you?

Like I wrote earlier, I they didn't appeared at all in either of my WotC PL's and it bothers me a bit if my speculation about their campaign content is right or not. Do they appear at the same time with the Chosen and that you can't delay their missions to deal with them in late game?

I mean, I think it's big deal considering the DLC's synergy.

BTW: I made my Trolollol Reaper build sort of back up solution for Rulers and achievement I don't have yet if you kill one of them when you first encounter it. For me, build per se didn't bother me at all, even though I didn't needed to use her ability even in the finale. For me though it's is like "Yo, Firaxis, I heard you liked cheese, so I made this Expanded Mag with Superiour Repeater Reaper build with Banish, so you can have more cheese in your cheese." I feel it's like some sort of a matter of principle that when given stuff like this, they HAS TO BE TRIED! Just because it's there.

Rulers don't appear until you go do the Alien Facility they are guarding and then only that one appears until you go to other facilities that others are guarding.

 

[Silva]

I'm about to kill my second Chosen and the game is getting pretty easy, except if I'm really unlucky or do something stupid. I'm Power Armored and full Plasma, with a Colonel and a couple Majors. BUT the infamous "Gatekeeper" hasnt' appeared yet. So, my question is: How to deal with these bastards? Does Bluescreen hurt them? EMP? Flashbangs? etc? Can it one-shot my soldiers? I only seen it on youtube vids and never faced one myself.

Thanks bros.

 

[sser]

Is it just me or are the sewer levels absolute death traps? I'm in one now and it's "rush to defend the data uplink!!" nonsense. So I get there and there's two MECs, two sectoids, two flamethrower guys, two ADVENTS, and an ADVENT captain. And they are completely clustered into what is essentially a phonebooth and there's no reliable cover anywhere.

 

[sser]

Is it just me or are the sewer levels absolute death traps? I'm in one now and it's "rush to defend the data uplink!!" nonsense. So I get there and there's two MECs, two sectoids, two flamethrower guys, two ADVENTS, and an ADVENT captain. And they are completely clustered into what is essentially a phonebooth and there's no reliable cover anywhere.

Depends on what your squad makeup is like but if they are that closely packed that one cannot reliably fight them separately, I would try to take advantage of the flamers explosion to knock out at least a few of the grunts.

Couldn't do that cause they were standing next to the uplink...

Ultimately lost my Specialist which makes sense. Last mission he MVP'd it by hacking MECs and turrets left and right, and he was the last one to EVAC in a crowd of enemy reinforcements. I even took a picture of him (ostensibly) giving the bird as he left.

He died by getting mind controlled. He ultimately naded himself, perhaps a tiny bit of his consciousness coming through to spare the rest of the squad

RIP Priest.

 

[Galdred]

Protecting the data uplink is a very random timed mission, as it really depend on who is shooting the data uplink (or did they change it for constant damage).
I had one with the sitrep limiting you to 3 squad members, and all the aliens spawned in sight of the uplink. I did not even try to save it. There was just no way I could see to do it without risking to jeopardize my guys.

Yeah, you gotta suspend your disbelief a little bit. I don't mind the human enemies, it's a nice change-up. The concept itself would be much better executed in a game with way more technical features. XCOM2's all about feeling like a resistance fighter, but that largely boils down to a 'Concealment' phase which is extremely shallow.

That said, I haven't played super far into WotC. I've only faced the Chosen twice now and still only have 1 scientist/1 engineer and I've barely touched XCOM2 in general since it was so... souring. I still have a hard time getting over the 'pod' gameplay. It is just too simplistic and degenerate for me.

I think the key to enjoying it is to consider it as a successor of Incubation, which was also gamey and puzzly, but pretty good.
I still wish they removed the pod gameplay, but there is a mod that allows you to make it less retarded. I'll definitely give it a shot for my next playthrough.

 

[Alienman]

I'm about to kill my second Chosen and the game is getting pretty easy, except if I'm really unlucky or do something stupid. I'm Power Armored and full Plasma, with a Colonel and a couple Majors. BUT the infamous "Gatekeeper" hasnt' appeared yet. So, my question is: How to deal with these bastards? Does Bluescreen hurt them? EMP? Flashbangs? etc? Can it one-shot my soldiers? I only seen it on youtube vids and never faced one myself.

Thanks bros.

Get the psi-feedback card from one of the resistance groups and watch the Gatekeeper suicide

 

[ArchAngel]

I'm about to kill my second Chosen and the game is getting pretty easy, except if I'm really unlucky or do something stupid. I'm Power Armored and full Plasma, with a Colonel and a couple Majors. BUT the infamous "Gatekeeper" hasnt' appeared yet. So, my question is: How to deal with these bastards? Does Bluescreen hurt them? EMP? Flashbangs? etc? Can it one-shot my soldiers? I only seen it on youtube vids and never faced one myself.

Thanks bros.

Get the psi-feedback card from one of the resistance groups and watch the Gatekeeper suicide

It is useless. I have only seen it damage them if psi attack fails.