Zelda Series

[Nutmeg]

wasted potential

On this I think everyone can agree.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Which game is the false hydra in?

 

[Butter]

Which game is the false hydra in?

Ocarina of Time.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Good lord! It is like Zelda Horror. Creepy!

 

[Machocruz]

Still waiting for the games to look like this:

 

[Ezekiel]

Don't want that very American/European style in a Zelda game, but at least it's consistent and simple. The newer games are all over the place, artistically.

 

[JC'sBarber]

Don't want that very American/European style in a Zelda game, but at least it's consistent and simple. The newer games are all over the place, artistically.

Why not?, I think it's still the closest video games have ever gotten to an Honest-to-God Tolkien/Lewis-style fantasy. The early games even had Link as a Christian, and none of the weird shit of later games. You have to appreciate just how rare a game like the original Zelda and Zelda II are, with their concept art especially. Most fantasy games borrow from D&D, and rarely the original pioneers of the genre.

 

[Machocruz]

Don't want that very American/European style in a Zelda game, but at least it's consistent and simple. The newer games are all over the place, artistically.

Why not?, I think it's still the closest video games have ever gotten to an Honest-to-God Tolkien/Lewis-style fantasy. The early games even had Link as a Christian, and none of the weird shit of later games. You have to appreciate just how rare a game like the original Zelda and Zelda II are, with their concept art especially. Most fantasy games borrow from D&D, and rarely the original pioneers of the genre.

Back when the manual artist(s) was growing up, there was less difference between the comics/animation art of Japan and the rest of the world. There were some giveaways, but it wasn't like now where 'anime' is the national style of Japan and 99% of characters look like they could fit into the average shounen show or a Tales of game. So yeah, the manual art looks like it could have come out of England in the 70-80s, but also Japan. I think they are much better representation of "fantasy heroic adventure for kids" than anything N are doing now.

 

[Ezekiel]

Don't want that very American/European style in a Zelda game, but at least it's consistent and simple. The newer games are all over the place, artistically.

Why not?, I think it's still the closest video games have ever gotten to an Honest-to-God Tolkien/Lewis-style fantasy. The early games even had Link as a Christian, and none of the weird shit of later games. You have to appreciate just how rare a game like the original Zelda and Zelda II are, with their concept art especially. Most fantasy games borrow from D&D, and rarely the original pioneers of the genre.

Back when the manual artist(s) was growing up, there was less difference between the comics/animation art of Japan and the rest of the world. There were some giveaways, but it wasn't like now where 'anime' is the national style of Japan and 99% of characters look like they could fit into the average shounen show or a Tales of game. So yeah, the manual art looks like it could have come out of England in the 70-80s, but also Japan. That's the beauty of it, as someone who thinks Nintendo is now a bland factory when it comes to art direction.

Would style it somewhat in the early to mid 1980s anime, but make sure that the land looks like old European fantasy. Again, needs to stay simple. The anime styles declined significantly in the '90s, and now it's almost all so inbred.

All over the place in time and art. Every artist working on Zelda needs to be reeducated or fired.

 

[Ezekiel]

Oh, that's from Mario Kart. I was being dumb. Thought it was concept art from Tears of the Kingdom because of all the wacky vehicles you build. Still, I hate that look and say that the technology in Tears of the Kingdom doesn't really have a place in this series partly inspired by Tolkien.

 

[Machocruz]

Would style it somewhat in the early to mid 1980s anime, but make sure that the land looks like old European fantasy

Wouldn't mind this, something like those sculpts that were posted earlier. I don't think past that decade is the right look for LoZ, too sharp/angular imo, and it's everywhere. The 80s round look would be unique at this point.

Problem is lack of life drawing and having that be the primary thing that shapes how you design things. Most people only copy another artist, and that's in every nation. That's how you get "inbred" design. Remember all the Jim Lee looking art in 90s capeshit? Even an elderly man with a walker would have a sharp jawline and hunter's eyes.

Also I edited my statement about Nintendo being a bland factory because someone could say those manual images aren't exactly unique (for their time), and they'd be right.

 

[Nutmeg]

very American/European style in a Zelda game

Wut. It's just a very typical 80s fantasy anime style. Looks like Leda or something.

 

[Nutmeg]

Link as a Christian

Japanese just use(d to use) a cross as a Western style design symbol, they don't know the first thing about Christianity. Similar to Westerners putting random katakana and Kanji in "cyberpunk". Do you really think there is any meaning behind it? Like if you told a Japanese artist "make the fantasy world look gaijin style" in the 80s (which is around when they first started depicting Western style fantasy worlds, AFIAK), they would throw a bunch of crosses in it for anything meant to be "good". Most Japanese think Colonel Sanders, Santa Claus and Jesus are the same character, like Hindu avatars of the same god. OK that last part might be somewhat of an exaggeration, but it's not that far from the truth either.

 

[Nutmeg]

too sharp/angular imo, and it's everywhere

Ah yes, the typical 90s fantasy anime style which got popularized with Slayers, Nadia and Lodoss, where everyone had a big long pointy nose, like Link in OoT and actually somewhat like the noses in the Zelda manuals you posted earlier (tho those weren't as sharp) lol

I don't particularly love it but it can be done well IMO

 

[Caim]

Link as a Christian

Japanese just use(d to use) a cross as a Western style design symbol, they don't know the first thing about Christianity. Similar to Westerners putting random katakana and Kanji in "cyberpunk". Do you really think there is any meaning behind it? Like if you told a Japanese artist "make the fantasy world look gaijin style" in the 80s (which is around when they first started depicting Western style fantasy worlds, AFIAK), they would throw a bunch of crosses in it for anything meant to be "good". Most Japanese think Colonel Sanders, Santa Claus and Jesus are the same character, like Hindu avatars of the same god. OK that last part might be somewhat of an exaggeration, but it's not that far from the truth either.

Evangelion fans: But what does all this Christian symbology mean? (proceed to debate for 30 years)
Evangelion creator: I just think that crosses look neat.

 

[Ezekiel]

too sharp/angular imo, and it's everywhere

Ah yes, the typical 90s fantasy anime style which got popularized with Slayers, Nadia and Lodoss, where everyone had a big long pointy nose, like Link in OoT and actually somewhat like the noses in the Zelda 2 manual lol

Sharper AND more aquiline features. Aquiline or diminished jaws. Tiny, sharp triangle noses were more common than the long loses. Pointier chins. Faces in general lost so much shape, as eyes became bigger. "Typical fantasy anime" sells it short. The inbred designs were everywhere, with few shows standing above.

 

[Nutmeg]

Problem is lack of life drawing and having that be the primary thing that shapes how you design things

We talked about Terada earlier ITT and he is a great example of a Japanese artist who drew (a lot) from life and thus has his own, atypical style.

Amano is similar, tho some might argue that his work is a little more typical, but if anything that is probably because of him actually setting stylistic trends in Anime in the 70s (Time Bokan) and 80s (Angel's Egg, Amon, Vampire Hunter D).

Mikimoto likewise, tho he stayed mostly in the Anime and Manga industry so his style is heavily associated with anime now, particularly 80s anime.

Then there's artists like Hitoshi Yoneda and Jun Suemi who seem to have make some conscious effort to align their style with broader trends, but their traditional training ends up shining through.

Kow Yokoyama, to a lesser extent Makoto Kobayashi, I could go on and on.

Most of these guys are old now, don't know of any new talent like this and yes the art is incredibly self referential now, but then again I live in the past so maybe there are some.

 

[Machocruz]

Ah yes, the typical 90s fantasy anime style which got popularized with Slayers, Nadia and Lodoss, where everyone had a big long pointy nose, like Link in OoT and actually somewhat like the noses in the Zelda 2 manual lol

I don't particularly love it but it can be done well IMO

Lodoss OVAs are my favorite anime of all time, Nadia was quality, and Slayers was charming, but yeah. Not for LoZ imo. The obvious go to is Hayao Miyazaki, which was probably an influence anyway. Imagine Go Nagai LoZ...

We talked about Terada earlier ITT and he is a great example of a Japanese artist who drew (a lot) from life and thus has his own, atypical style.

Amano is similar, tho some might argue that his work is a little more typical, but if anything that is probably because of him actually setting stylistic trends in Anime in the 70s (Time Bokan) and 80s (Angel's Egg, Amon, Vampire Hunter D).

Mikimoto likewise, tho he stayed mostly in the Anime and Manga industry so his style is heavily associated with anime now, particularly 80s anime.

Then there's artists like Hitoshi Yoneda and Jun Suemi who seem to have make some conscious effort to align their style with broader trends, but their traditional training ends up shining through.

Kow Yokoyama, to a lesser extent Makoto Kobayashi, I could go on and on.

Most of these guys are old now, don't know of any new talent like this and yes the art is incredibly self referential now, but then again I live in the past so maybe there are some.

Mikimoto is Macross and Gunbuster right? I posted an illustration he did of Link and Zelda, don't know if it was this thread or another. Some didn't like it. I wasn't saying the games should look like that, but I thought it was kind of neat seeing it like that. Maybe you had to grow up with that stuff.

On another thread, someone accused Terada's illustrations for Busin of being generic, realistic comic art. Which A.) not really, you can tell Terada at a glance, and B.) there is only so much you can do with more representational art. The context was me criticizing the lack of idiosyncracies, customized expressions/poses in modern cartooning. With cartooning, the sky's the limit, but people still suck on Glen Keane and CalArts styles.

Amano's art is tailor made for 'mystical' heroes and worlds, although he can do just about anything.

Japanese fantasy/sci-fi watercolor work was god-tier. Those images really transports you to another time and place. You can't illustrate like that merely by copying other artists.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Link as a Christian

Japanese just use(d to use) a cross as a Western style design symbol, they don't know the first thing about Christianity. Similar to Westerners putting random katakana and Kanji in "cyberpunk". Do you really think there is any meaning behind it? Like if you told a Japanese artist "make the fantasy world look gaijin style" in the 80s (which is around when they first started depicting Western style fantasy worlds, AFIAK), they would throw a bunch of crosses in it for anything meant to be "good". Most Japanese think Colonel Sanders, Santa Claus and Jesus are the same character, like Hindu avatars of the same god. OK that last part might be somewhat of an exaggeration, but it's not that far from the truth either.

Evangelion fans: But what does all this Christian symbology mean? (proceed to debate for 30 years)
Evangelion creator: I just think that crosses look neat.

On the note of crossed & religious symbols; how many games in the USA censored this out. I still laugh at the time I watched Yugioh and these suits pointed fingers at Kyba or w/e his name was. Turns out they really had pistols pointed at him. Ahhhhhh! That makes much more sense. Were the crosses edited out of USA releases?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

On a tangent, would people like a new Zelda game done in the style like Link to the Past (since that is based pretty much on the original)? Lord knows people use overhead engines for all sorts of games and new gfx, tips, tricks, hardware can do some fantastic shit. What about another Adventure of Link (or would that be Metroid-Linkvania)? How about a party based Zelda with tactical combat (with or without actual unit movement). Zelda empire world war strategy game?

 

[Nutmeg]

I don't really care what they do with the "IP". Let's see if this Western style emphasis on "systems" and emergent gameplay which started with BotW actually ever actually results in something beyond a heavily cut down Zelda game stuck in a physics sandbox and pretty interactive screensaver generator.

 

[Nutmeg]

How about a party based Zelda with tactical combat (with or without actual unit movement). Zelda empire world war strategy game?

Well there's Hyrule Warriors

 

[e-mailio estevez]

How about a party based Zelda with tactical combat (with or without actual unit movement). Zelda empire world war strategy game?

Well there's Hyrule Warriors

I never tried out the BOTW Hyrule Warriors with its awful framerate but I recall liking the original Hyrule Warriors quite a bit. It's the only Dynasty Warriors I've played, admittedly, but there was a great variety of movesets with all of its characters and some of the missions laid the pressure on pretty thick. Clinching some of those objectives was really satisfying. Even just mentioning it makes me want to take it for another spin.

On the subject of Twilight Princess... it's probably my least favorite Zelda despite me being overwhelming hyped up for it at launch despite it being the sole reason for camping out and picking up a Wii during its launch day. It had some great setpieces here and there, sure, but it was insultingly easy even by 'modern' Zelda standards. I remember standing in-place and setting my controller down during the final boss fight and slowly watching my hearts get chipped away 1/4 or 1/2 at a time. It would've taken several minutes for the final boss to kill me while just standing there doing nothing. They give you all of these tools- special combat maneuvers, a special tunic that drains rupees before hearts and so on which was completely wasted on a stupidly easy game. I also found it kind of insulting that Midna was essentially the main character, the final boss never even addresses Link from what I can recall. TP did have my favorite Princess Zelda design out of all of the games, though- I was turned off by Skyward Sword simply from its aesthetics alone.

So much wasted potential with TP... it's probably the only Zelda that I've never had the desire to replay a single time. Although I have to admit the western-themed shootout section was really, really fun and cool.

 

[Beastro]

Don't want that very American/European style in a Zelda game, but at least it's consistent and simple. The newer games are all over the place, artistically.

The early games even had Link as a Christian,

wut?

You can't just say something like that and not provide details, man.

That's like saying Samus Aran is Zoroastrian, hence the weird name for a blonde chick. Like, wtf, where did that come from???

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

On the subject of Twilight Princess... it's probably my least favorite Zelda despite me being overwhelming hyped up for it at launch it being the sole reason for camping out and picking up a Wii during its launch day. It had some great setpieces here and there, sure, but it was insultingly easy even by 'modern' Zelda standards. I remember standing in-place and setting my controller down during the final boss fight and slowly watching my hearts get chipped away 1/4 or 1/2 at a time. It would've taken several minutes for the final boss to kill me while just standing there doing nothing. They give you all of these tools- special combat maneuvers, a special tunic that drains rupees before hearts and so on which was completely wasted on a stupidly easy game. I also found it kind of insulting that Midna was essentially the main character, the final boss never even addresses Link from what I can recall. TP did have my favorite Princess Zelda design out of all of the games, though- I was turned off by Skyward Sword simply from its aesthetics alone.

So much wasted potential with TP... it's probably the only Zelda that I've never had the desire to replay a single time. Although I have to admit the western-themed shootout section was really, really fun and cool.

TP was a disappointment no doubt, but it has some of the best dungeons to be found in a 3D Zelda title. It's not on the level of Majora's Mask's 4 rock-solidly 10/10 dungeons, but it's a very solid showing with some excellent offerings and only one real clunker. Purely from a dungeon design perspective I would probably put TP on a par with OoT, maybe even slightly better. It's just everything else in TP that lets it down.