Zelda Series

[DJOGamer PT]

This meme that Twilight Princess was in any way disappointing is fake news

It kinda was
I was 11 when I specifically bought my chipped GameCube to play TP
And while I liked it alot, even back then, after completing it for the first time, I thought MM was just plain better

The game has great high points and plenty of cool ideas (that should imo be resused), there is no denying any of that
But it also has abysmal pacing, plenty of mandatory monotonous segments (specially before the Master Sword) and overall it feels like OoT but without the charming "fairy-tale" tone of that game and more of a puerile chuunibyou mood

Zelda was never supposed to be an "open world"

The first game is very clearly open-world...

The Zelda series had it's own style, and all of that was jettisoned for a Ubislop formula done better in other games.

Please do go ahead and list those games

Call of Duty is the most infamous example of this

You'd be surprised to hear this, but CoD has been experimenting with it's formula for at least some 5 years now, because before that even the hardcore fans where getting tired of it
The most well received CoD in recent memory was the nuMW2 remake, which also happened to be the one which experimented with mission design

What I'm saying is, we haven't seen a traditional 3D Zelda game since 2006

Despite it's motion control gimmick, SS was very much a classic formula 3D Zelda game

But there is a time and a place for it

Which was what BotW did

 

[Nutmeg]

I bought Twilight Princess on release, played through it once in the span of a week, and now I don't remember it at all. I don't remember liking it or disliking it particularly either. Literally a forgettable game for me.

 

[Nutmeg]

and that wand is useful right to the end of the game.

Which wand are you talking about?

 

[Damned Registrations]

and that wand is useful right to the end of the game.

Which wand are you talking about?

Ice wand in LttP came to mind. But I just meant useful item/spell/upgrade in general. LttP has tons of that shit, so did the first two Zelda games. Over time it seems like that part got watered down- all the important shit becomes shoved in your way so you can't miss it, and all the optional stuff you could miss gets watered down to the point of being useless. The glitchless LttP speedrun is missing a medallion, a staff, the cape, 4 bottles, the net, the silver arrows, red boomerang, both armour upgrades, 28 heart pieces, both shield upgrades, the last sword upgrade, the magic powder, the magic bar upgrade, and a partridge in a pear tree. Every single one of those items represents something exciting to find while exploring that you weren't forced to get while on the shitty theme park train tracks that kept you from exploring.

 

[cretin]

So guys who are like "nigga, fuck modern zelda"

what are the consensus best zelda games to play? Open to mods/romhacks too. OoT was my first love as a child, MM I didn't learn to appreciate until many years after the fact (and am probably due for a replay of), wind waker was interesting but I also remember it being way too easy... I think I skipped TTP, not for any particular reason.

 

[Falksi]

I bought Twilight Princess on release, played through it once in the span of a week, and now I don't remember it at all. I don't remember liking it or disliking it particularly either. Literally a forgettable game for me.

I find most the series like that. I still love Link To The Past, but beyond that they're very forgettable.

 

[Nutmeg]

Ice wand in LttP came to mind. But I just meant useful item/spell/upgrade in general. LttP has tons of that shit, so did the first two Zelda games. Over time it seems like that part got watered down- all the important shit becomes shoved in your way so you can't miss it, and all the optional stuff you could miss gets watered down to the point of being useless. The glitchless LttP speedrun is missing a medallion, a staff, the cape, 4 bottles, the net, the silver arrows, red boomerang, both armour upgrades, 28 heart pieces, both shield upgrades, the last sword upgrade, the magic powder, the magic bar upgrade, and a partridge in a pear tree. Every single one of those items represents something exciting to find while exploring that you weren't forced to get while on the shitty theme park train tracks that kept you from exploring.

Ice rod you need to defeat a dungeon boss IIRC.

But you're right some of those do actually change the way you play the game, especially the shields, the boomerang and the medallion.

Those are cool.

The sword upgrade and silver arrow only change the way you approach Ganon. The cape and staff are redundant with each other, and too situational. Likewise the magic powder. But OK they get a pass too.

But the armor upgrades, the hearts, the bottles (and the net with which to fill them with fairies), the magic bar upgrade, the bomb upgrade you forgot to mention, and the sword outside of the Gannon fight are all strictly difficulty slider decrements, and those make up the majority of secrets.

I wonder if I did a count of optional, secret items in BotW would it beat Zelda 3's 4 good plus 5 OK such items.

 

[Just Locus]

wind waker was interesting but I also remember it being way too easy...

Wind Waker is my favorite Zelda game for many reasons. The cel-shaded graphics made it age much more gracefully than the "realistic" Zelda games.
Link and Ganon's characterization is by far the best - Link is an actual character with flaws and goals, and Ganon has much more going for him beyond being an evil prick.

The minigames are fun, and the side quests are hit or miss, but the joy of exploration is present throughout the entire game. The puzzles are a lot more inventive than a typical Zelda game (mostly because the harder ones are optional so the designers can make them as hard as possible since they know players won't have to complete them).

 

[DJOGamer PT]

what are the consensus best zelda games to play?

From the 3D:
- Majora's Mask
- Master Quest
- Breath of the Wild

Wind Waker and Twilight Princess are honorable mentions, they're not as good as the above imo, but they're not bad either and they'll also give a better understanding of the series

From 2D:
- Link's Awekening DX
- A Link to the Past
- Oracle of Ages/Seasons
- Minish Cap

Spirit Tracks is a honorable mention, it's better than Phantom Hourglass imo (which is a direct sequel to Wind Waker)
Another honorable mention is Four Swords Adventures - it can be played in single-player, but obviously if you manage to get a friend on-board, it's alot more fun


And that's it, you can ignore

 

[Just Locus]

Minish Cap isn't anything that remarkable, but it was a nice comfy game. It also served as a backstory for Link's hat. It's worth a playthrough at least.

 

[Nathir]

I never played a Zelda game in my life.

 

[pakoito]

Link Between Worlds beats Minish Cap every day of the week.

I don't know if it's been mentioned in the thread before. Mark Brown from Game Maker's Toolkit may not be a proper game designer or critic, but he did classify every single Zelda dungeon and thus every Zelda game. Three categories arose: Lock and Key (open the dungeon incrementally in a non-linear way), Puzzle Box (backtrack to change the state of the dungeon and access new areas) and Gauntlet (a series of puzzle or combat challenges). What kind of style you prefer dictates your choice of favorite Zelda games.

For example, because I like L&K and PB, so I bounced hard from Wind Waker's mostly linear dungeons. Echoes has garbage dungeons because they couldn't do PB and fumbled L&K.

 

[Machocruz]

So guys who are like "nigga, fuck modern zelda"

what are the consensus best zelda games to play? Open to mods/romhacks too. OoT was my first love as a child, MM I didn't learn to appreciate until many years after the fact (and am probably due for a replay of), wind waker was interesting but I also remember it being way too easy... I think I skipped TTP, not for any particular reason.

I wouldn't put any of the handheld games above the original, as if you play LttP, which no one can argue that you shouldn't*, you've already played the peak of everything else that came after, with less of Aonuma's cringe fethishes/gimmicks. The original LoZ is a different beast than everything that came after it. Still very playable despite an unwieldy approach to a couple things. Then at least you will have a baseline to compare other games and be able to decide for yourself what the series is/should be about.

I think Adventure of Link has some good things going for it, like one of the best 2D swordfighting systems, but I wouldn't say it's essential. Has some weird and/or misguided design, while it's predecessor already got most things right right out of the gate.

*I have problems with the presentation, and several other things I don't like about the series started creeping in here, but it still plays and is structured beautifully, and it's probably still the quintessential (fantasy) action-adventure game.

 

[Nutmeg]

For me, it's Zelda 1, 2 and Zelda 1's sister game Nazo no Murasamejou.

 

[Butter]

So guys who are like "nigga, fuck modern zelda"

what are the consensus best zelda games to play? Open to mods/romhacks too. OoT was my first love as a child, MM I didn't learn to appreciate until many years after the fact (and am probably due for a replay of), wind waker was interesting but I also remember it being way too easy... I think I skipped TTP, not for any particular reason.

A Link to the Past
Link's Awakening
Ocarina of Time
Majora's Mask
A Link Between Worlds

The Wind Waker gets a nod for some amazing aesthetics (best soundtrack) and fun exploration, but its dungeons are decline and it's generally way too easy.

 

[Caim]

So guys who are like "nigga, fuck modern zelda"

what are the consensus best zelda games to play? Open to mods/romhacks too. OoT was my first love as a child, MM I didn't learn to appreciate until many years after the fact (and am probably due for a replay of), wind waker was interesting but I also remember it being way too easy... I think I skipped TTP, not for any particular reason.

A Link to the Past is peak 2d Zelda. Link Between Worlds is a close sequel, but it's a sequel in the way Mass Effect 2 is: cutting up a larger world into smaller bite-sized chunks that have little to do with one another. Link's Awakening is fun but the GB version holds it back with the limits of the handheld, so if you can handle the aesthetics you can give that shot. Oracle games are a step up, but still a bit limited. Wind Waker is very charming, but not very challenging and relies heavily on its exploration. Minish Cap is good fun and has one of the series' best "main world/alternate world" mechanics. Twilight Princes is... well, when you're in the dungeons and the leadup to some of them it's really fucking good, but it's limited by its inbetween segments.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

As a die hard exploration-fag, BotW is shit in that regard. There's nothing worse than the feeling of finding something that appears significant, only for it to be pointless. BotW does this far, far too often. Weapons that don't matter because you've already got better, armour, ditto. Shrines matter for about the first dozen or so then the incremental gains are too small to matter. Quests that have useless rewards. Unique locations with nothing in them. I managed to tame an utterly massive horse! It's useless- just a slow ass horse with no purpose. I managed to tame a legendary forest guardian elk thing! Even more useless- you can't keep it and you get nothing for doing it. Discover a fairy fountain- it's useless. I climbed a tall mountain- same shit up here as elsewhere. Defeat a powerful enemy- it drops a weapon that is weaker than what you used up to kill it. Again and again the game offered up disappointments. There were a tiny handful of moments when exploration really paid off; a cave full of respawning loot in the mountains, labyrinths that reward an armour set to boost attack power. But by and large it was all a waste of time, doubly so because of the retarded food system that made both health and stamina irrelevant stats you can just have infinite amounts of by gathering enough bananas and carrots.

A proper Zelda game hides a magic wand in a random cave revealed by bombing a funny looking wall you could have easily missed, and that wand is useful right to the end of the game. Finding weapons in BotW has all the excitement of finding bombs or arrows in a 2D zelda game when you're already full on both.

Good lord! The game is that bad/annoying? Sounds like it needs some serious mods.

I think Adventure of Link has some good things going for it, like one of the best 2D swordfighting systems, but I wouldn't say it's essential. Has some weird and/or misguided design, while it's predecessor already got most things right out of the gate.

Ah! My first Zelda game. I enjoyed it tbh even if it could be difficult as hell. Then I played the original
I bought from a VG pawn shop; it was a golden cart.

 

[Just Locus]

its dungeons are decline and it's generally way too easy.

I always saw WW's reduced difficulty as appropriate for the kind of lighthearted atmosphere and aesthetic it was going for, it would be pretty jarring for the game to have the visuals that it had, and the gameplay to be as challenging as OoT or MM. However, there was no excuse for this reduced difficulty to remain as much as it has in the series, TP should've matched OoT's difficulty since that was the feel it was going for, and those games were much more challenging, yet it was just as easy as Wind Waker despite giving Link a considerable upgrade when it comes to his moveset.

Plus, I think WW came closer to replicating the first game's sense of discovery with the ocean, because there's a lot more room for players to discover things that other players might've not, and that goes a long way toward good exploration (even though the islands were lacking in content, and it sucks that SS didn't improve on it at all)

 

[Ezekiel]

wind waker was interesting but I also remember it being way too easy...

Wind Waker is my favorite Zelda game for many reasons. The cel-shaded graphics made it age much more gracefully than the "realistic" Zelda games.
Link and Ganon's characterization is by far the best - Link is an actual character with flaws and goals, and Ganon has much more going for him beyond being an evil prick.

The minigames are fun, and the side quests are hit or miss, but the joy of exploration is present throughout the entire game. The puzzles are a lot more inventive than a typical Zelda game (mostly because the harder ones are optional so the designers can make them as hard as possible since they know players won't have to complete them).

Zelda never had a realistic art style. So far from it with all the weird, oddly proportioned cartoon characters that I can't even let your quotation marks slide.

 

[Just Locus]

Zelda never had a realistic art style. So far from it with all the weird, oddly proportioned cartoon characters that I can't even let your quotation marks slide.

You're confusing realism with internal consistency. The oddly proportioned characters like the Gorons and so forth felt less like an attempt at realism and more to immerse the player in a different world. I don't think it's a stretch to say that games like Majora's Mask, Ocarina of Time, and Twilight Princess had a more "gritty" art style, compared to the rest.

TP's color palette is a lot more washed down, and the attempts at humor are much more rare. As opposed to Wind Waker where the characters are designed in a more exaggerated way to emphasize their weird proportions.

 

[Ezekiel]

Zelda never had a realistic art style. So far from it with all the weird, oddly proportioned cartoon characters that I can't even let your quotation marks slide.

You're confusing realism with internal consistency. The oddly proportioned characters like the Gorons and so forth felt less like an attempt at realism and more to immerse the player in a different world. I don't think it's a stretch to say that games like Majora's Mask, Ocarina of Time, and Twilight Princess had a more "gritty" art style, compared to the rest.

TP's color palette is a lot more washed down, and the attempts at humor are much more rare. As opposed to Wind Waker where the characters are designed in a more exaggerated way to emphasize their weird proportions.

Gorons? I'm talking about the Hylians, Kokiri and Gerudo. They are cartoons, clearly. Many are garish, but all TOTALLY cartoons. Proportions of even Link are weird.

 

[Just Locus]

The Hylians/Kokiri are meant to just be Elves, I think part of the strange proportions was because of the low polygons of the models themselves that made them look much more exaggerated than the artists intended. This is fucking pointless at the end of the day. It's just a classification because I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say TP and WW have drastically different art styles.

OoT, MM, and TP's art style/visuals are a lot more bleak and washed out, which is much more akin to real life since real life has no visual adornment. As opposed to WW which is a lot more bright and exaggerated in its presentation. I think you're confusing me by saying "realistic" as though the characters are supposed to be hyper-realistic/life-like when that's not what I mean. The exaggerated designs don't make the art styles realistic just because they look weird, a typical Zelda fan has come to expect that at this point, especially when it's set in a fantasy universe.

No amount of "characters with weird proportions" will make this scene any more cartoony or less serious.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Uh..... yeah... I'm out! That is just some creepy shit.

 

[Nutmeg]

I always thought the N64 Zeldas were the most successful attempt at real time 3D rendered "anime" stylized characters in a video game, of their time.

I put "anime" in scare quotes, because I am really referring to broader Japanese fantasy pop art (figurines, manga, illustrations etc.), not anime style line rendering and flat shading. Out of those Japanese 80s and early 90s fantasy miniatures are probably the most similar e.g.

 

[Caim]

As a die hard exploration-fag, BotW is shit in that regard. There's nothing worse than the feeling of finding something that appears significant, only for it to be pointless. BotW does this far, far too often. Weapons that don't matter because you've already got better, armour, ditto. Shrines matter for about the first dozen or so then the incremental gains are too small to matter. Quests that have useless rewards. Unique locations with nothing in them. I managed to tame an utterly massive horse! It's useless- just a slow ass horse with no purpose. I managed to tame a legendary forest guardian elk thing! Even more useless- you can't keep it and you get nothing for doing it. Discover a fairy fountain- it's useless. I climbed a tall mountain- same shit up here as elsewhere. Defeat a powerful enemy- it drops a weapon that is weaker than what you used up to kill it. Again and again the game offered up disappointments. There were a tiny handful of moments when exploration really paid off; a cave full of respawning loot in the mountains, labyrinths that reward an armour set to boost attack power. But by and large it was all a waste of time, doubly so because of the retarded food system that made both health and stamina irrelevant stats you can just have infinite amounts of by gathering enough bananas and carrots.

A proper Zelda game hides a magic wand in a random cave revealed by bombing a funny looking wall you could have easily missed, and that wand is useful right to the end of the game. Finding weapons in BotW has all the excitement of finding bombs or arrows in a 2D zelda game when you're already full on both.

Good lord! The game is that bad/annoying? Sounds like it needs some serious mods.

Oh it gets worse. Here's the map of Breath of the Wild, where I've taken the liberty of drawing which areas you explore for the main quest (and the best side quest) and how you travel to those places:

Spoilered for big

As you can see, entire swathes for the map go unused. The mountain ranges in the north-west, west and east? You don't go there. The canyon and the watery in the north-western part? Also unvisited. The forest north of the one you do visit? Unvisited. A good chunk of the desert? Sure it's a desert, but there's nothing there. The badlands in the western part of the map? You run along their outskirts. An entire chunk of the southern part of the map including a jungle, tropical beaches, an entire village of people, the lakes up in the mountains or the savanna in the western parts? Nothing to see there, move along. The funky swirl in the north-weast? Nope. See the untraveled road in the north-western part? If you go along the edge of the map (the darker brown) you can ride across a ridge that leads you to the skeleton of some great best, surely there must be something interesting there? Nope. The three-pronged lake north-west of the south-east most circle? It's there if you want to take a look.

You might find some things there: shrines with which you can upgrade yourself or weapons that are at best on part with what you already have, or more resources than you can possibly use up. And while some of the places are neat to look at, you'll just enjoy the view before you move on. There's just so much wasted potential here that was not possible with how the more linear Zelda games do it, it's aggravating.