Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Vapourware Zodiac Legion - X-COM and dungeons

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,495
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
We added a tutorial to the Demo. It is still a work in progress, and it lacks some functionalities (like being able to see previous messages, and some image integration like we did for the contextual help).
GKV__R5WcAEhO8v



GKUvpf9XUAAsjmi

I also revamped the pathfinding algorithm, so the cursor should be more reactive now. It focuses on getting to the destination in as few turns as possible, then minimizing the zone of controls crossed, then using as few MP as possible:

GJX7dMxWEAA_NFL

 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,495
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I was wondering about a few things:

What is your opinion about player base? Do you prefer the layout being customizable and used for base defense (ala OG X-COM)? Or do you prefer the layout to be predefined/slightly customizable (like in HoMM and Total War, where you can add some defensive structures, but with a fixed layout)?

1713171191870.png


The current plan was to have this layout (it would be relatively easy to combine with our randomized map system, as we already combine rooms into dungeons ), but it wouldn't really work well with the idea of having a real castle to defend (here is the prototype of the castle tileset):
FzyfwUfWYAIvOsi

It would be possible to mix both approaches by having several "layered skirmishes": the first one on the outer walls, then inside the dungeon complex under it.
 

Serus

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
6,907
Location
Small but great planet of Potatohole
I can only say, do what you think is best and have time to implement well. I know, i'm not very helpful.
I'd go for the simpler approach but I am a cautious person. If you feel confident you can make it work as in old X-COM where the base (in base defense mode) was the same as the one you were building in strategic mode then go for it. It would be nice to have, but i imagine it wold be somewhat time consuming to implement well and play test. I'd think a more abstract approach would work well too.
 

negator2vc

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2017
Messages
337
Location
Greece
The choice depends on the cost of implementing it and testing it.
Both choices are good with the first option been ideal.
If you can afford the cost go for it otherwise the 2nd option is good enough.
 

The Wall

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 19, 2017
Messages
3,695
Location
SERPGIA
Can we have ballista, boiling oil, wolf cages and other kinds of defensive castle weaponry? Sprinkle of Stronghold in this fantasy X-COM Berseker setting
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,495
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The choice depends on the cost of implementing it and testing it.
Both choices are good with the first option been ideal.
If you can afford the cost go for it otherwise the 2nd option is good enough.
Actually, the cost of implementing 1 would be close to zero, as we already use a system of "slotted map" + randomized preset rooms that could work as well with just swapping randomized rooms for the ones that match the base layout.

Can we have ballista, boiling oil, wolf cages and other kinds of defensive castle weaponry? Sprinkle of Stronghold in this fantasy X-COM Berseker setting

But my issue was actually that it would be hard to combine both (ie, room layout matching facilities built by the player, and defenses). But maybe if it happens over two separate maps (one with exterior defenses, and one inside)?
 
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
2,849
Location
The Present
I can very easily live without base management. I didn't care for it in X-Com, NWN2, or Pillars. I prefer BG2 style strongholds where it's a persistent place to dump loot after you conquer it. Maybe a few follow-up events/quests. I don't enjoy it being a money & time sink.
 

The Wall

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 19, 2017
Messages
3,695
Location
SERPGIA
Can we have ballista, boiling oil, wolf cages and other kinds of defensive castle weaponry? Sprinkle of Stronghold in this fantasy X-COM Berseker setting
But my issue was actually that it would be hard to combine both (ie, room layout matching facilities built by the player, and defenses). But maybe if it happens over two separate maps (one with exterior defenses, and one inside)?
That would do the trick! Inner and Outer Castle defense maps. Maybe even breeding small dragons (chihuahuas among dragons), domesticated and friendly to inhabitants of Castle. Defending Castle as their nest during siege

What's of outmost importance is WALLS. If you invest into high, thiccc, brick, beautiful walls, only attacker with siege engines or very rare wall climbing units could attack you. Have fun using ladders. Only one having fun would be defenders
 

The Wall

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 19, 2017
Messages
3,695
Location
SERPGIA
Can we expect some sort of Kickstarter or Steam Early Access for Zodiac Legion before WW3? By that I mean before end of 2024
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,495
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Can we have ballista, boiling oil, wolf cages and other kinds of defensive castle weaponry? Sprinkle of Stronghold in this fantasy X-COM Berseker setting
But my issue was actually that it would be hard to combine both (ie, room layout matching facilities built by the player, and defenses). But maybe if it happens over two separate maps (one with exterior defenses, and one inside)?
That would do the trick! Inner and Outer Castle defense maps. Maybe even breeding small dragons (chihuahuas among dragons), domesticated and friendly to inhabitants of Castle. Defending Castle as their nest during siege

What's of outmost importance is WALLS. If you invest into high, thiccc, brick, beautiful walls, only attacker with siege engines or very rare wall climbing units could attack you. Have fun using ladders. Only one having fun would be defenders

I loved defending and assaulting castles in Lords of the Realm 1/2 and in Castle strikes, and it would also be a good use case for a few magic spells. We looked for a design that wouldn't make fighting against winged opponents too much of a disadvantage, because of the large ramparts:
Here is Bellver castle in Spain and the Zodiac fortress:

300px-Castillo_de_Bellver.jpg
1 Chateau (de l’illustration principale).jpg


I'd like to use our modular map system to let the player add artillery or magic defenses on the ramparts.

Can we expect some sort of Kickstarter or Steam Early Access for Zodiac Legion before WW3? By that I mean before end of 2024

However, that would indeed clash with my objective of releasing the game in EA in 2024, so it will have to come later as rampart destruction would be more complex than our current wall destruction.
 

The Wall

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 19, 2017
Messages
3,695
Location
SERPGIA
Allow us to walk through our fully developed castle in peace time, watching lives of all the servants, soldiers, beasts and architectural upgrades. Let it be something added later on

Have you considered becoming one of strategy darlings published by Hooded Horse? Publishers of Manor Lords, Menace, Espiocracy, Xenonauts 2, Old World and many other good titles. You two seem like artistic & business match made in heaven
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
29,782
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Galdred if you go for the customizable castle, would it be easier to just have some facilities as smaller buildings(hut sized, say) in a courtyard inside the walls which could be anywhere in that area, while the castle itself is made of fixed rooms that you will have to fit the facilities in?
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,495
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Allow us to walk through our fully developed castle in peace time, watching lives of all the servants, soldiers, beasts and architectural upgrades. Let it be something added later on

I'd like to, but that would be quite a few subsystems to add, and I am afraid people won't really use it much, so I cannot promise anything.

Have you considered becoming one of strategy darlings published by Hooded Horse? Publishers of Manor Lords, Menace, Espiocracy, Xenonauts 2, Old World and many other good titles. You two seem like artistic & business match made in heaven

Actually, I have been talking with Hooded Horse founder for a long time. He has been of great advice on quite a few production and marketing related topics, but we haven't moved ahead regarding publishing.

Galdred if you go for the customizable castle, would it be easier to just have some facilities as smaller buildings(hut sized, say) in a courtyard inside the walls which could be anywhere in that area, while the castle itself is made of fixed rooms that you will have to fit the facilities in?

It was something I had been considering. Both systems could work with minimal changes to our map system. However, there is a micro issue of the building walls not being aligned with the castle walls, which could cause some perspective micro issues (basically, the castle walls follow hexagonal directions, while the building walls follow orthogonal ones).
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,495
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Allow us to walk through our fully developed castle in peace time, watching lives of all the servants, soldiers, beasts and architectural upgrades. Let it be something added later on

Have you considered becoming one of strategy darlings published by Hooded Horse? Publishers of Manor Lords, Menace, Espiocracy, Xenonauts 2, Old World and many other good titles. You two seem like artistic & business match made in heaven
Sorry, I was not totally honest with you or Alienman about Hooded Horse, but I didn't feel really comfortable talking about that earlier (and I've just reread my notes about our exchanges):

Actually, our talks went a bit further than that. It was Tim who approached me to publish Zodiac Legion, but we had opposite views on some elements of gameplay (Mostly the size of the maps. The scout at Hooded Horse wanted small RPG encounters with RT exploration or a similar mechanism, while we wanted dungeon wide skirmishes in which the turn-based battle would happen over the whole dungeon).

As it is core to our vision of the game, there is little chance it can get any further, even though we made a lot of efforts since to improve the pace of the game, and give more feeback about the tactical elements involved.
Also, Hooded Horse didn't like our pixel art much, which vexed me a lot, even though I contributed nothing to the game.

Anyway, Tim still has given me solid advice since then, and the talks are just frozen, not entirely dead.
 

m_s0

Arcane
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
1,292
This sounds like they really want to have a nice addition to their portfolio first and foremost. Makes you think if any of the games they published got altered just to fit HH's idea as to what would look nice on their Steam page, and not what'd be more interesting to play.

That's a somewhat disturbing thought as your vision for the game sounds more appealing than that surprisingly generic suggestion - though it's more than likely a significant challenge to execute on it vs "yeah, just do the thing".
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,495
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
This sounds like they really want to have a nice addition to their portfolio first and foremost. Makes you think if any of the games they published got altered just to fit HH's idea as to what would look nice on their Steam page, and not what'd be more interesting to play.

That's a somewhat disturbing thought as your vision for the game sounds more appealing than that surprisingly generic suggestion - though it's more than likely a significant challenge to execute on it vs "yeah, just do the thing".
I think it had more to do with not wanting to take a gamble. Making large levels work in a melee heavy games is much harder than in a shooting one to begin with, and the prototype had severe pacing and balance issues on top of that. Actually, one tester also championned much smaller levels.

I think smaller levels have their merit to add variety, but not to the point of having these only (and small would still be 24*24 for me, not a 10*10 room...).
 

Alienman

Retro-Fascist
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
18,146
Location
Mars
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Also, Hooded Horse didn't like our pixel art much, which vexed me a lot, even though I contributed nothing to the game.
Interesting. Anything more on that? I don't see why the pixel art would be an issue at all, especially since I thought they were very hands-off with their "clients". From what I understand, they work as a 100k investment in marketing and then take a cut from the sales. I never heard them dictate actual development.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,495
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Also, Hooded Horse didn't like our pixel art much, which vexed me a lot, even though I contributed nothing to the game.
Interesting. Anything more on that? I don't see why the pixel art would be an issue at all, especially since I thought they were very hands-off with their "clients". From what I understand, they work as a 100k investment in marketing and then take a cut from the sales. I never heard them dictate actual development.
They saw it as a risk, in that it was too generic to build a strong game identity (not a blocking one actually).
But our (artistic) niche has always to emulate the look of 90s games in the first place. If anything, the issue would rather be that our sprites may not be that easy to distinguish from each other.

I don't think they follow a one size fits all approach when it comes to investment, share, and recoup actually.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,495
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
This sounds like they really want to have a nice addition to their portfolio first and foremost. Makes you think if any of the games they published got altered just to fit HH's idea as to what would look nice on their Steam page, and not what'd be more interesting to play.

That's a somewhat disturbing thought as your vision for the game sounds more appealing than that surprisingly generic suggestion - though it's more than likely a significant challenge to execute on it vs "yeah, just do the thing".
Actually, now that I think about it, Tim sounded really passionate about the game concept at first. In a way, maybe that was the issue: he may have had his own vision of the game in this case (which I think was not the case for many other games).
 

Taka-Haradin puolipeikko

Filthy Kalinite
Patron
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
20,562
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/812910/view/4196868529823166126
Dev Diary – Level Construction Process
Greetings and salutations, friends!

We’re hard at work on our procedural map generation system, and as we get nearer to having its fully functional first iteration, we figured we could give you a little glimpse behind the scenes and show what the entire process looks like. I’m Maciej, the level designer/loremaster on Zodiac Legion, and here’s my approach to this part of the game.


The whole thing begins with a pencil and paper. I try to think of an arrangement that either feels interesting to me or which we don’t yet have in the game, and then I draw it, keeping in mind the level design constraints and a few gameplay considerations. At this stage, my thinking is only: “is this layout a good point of departure?”, and not “what will this map be?”


9196817a70f54fc36e38c478bb9f4704e96ba468.jpg

Suffice to say, some of my ideas are better than others.

After I get a satisfactory result, I draw a bigger picture, where I do the first major adjustments on things that are immediately obvious when viewed from a larger perspective. This entails switching around rooms, resizing them or changing the access points to get a layout that would be better in terms of the gameplay. Only after this is done, do I proceed to giving the map a “theme,” and assigning various environmental functions to individual rooms – that is, only at this stage does a map become e.g. a prison, with a guardroom next to a detention area by a torture chamber, and so on.

The process becomes both a little bit easier as well as harder with random maps. The start is the same – with pencil and paper followed by the big picture. However, I can no longer shape the arrangement of the map entirely to my liking. That’s because we use a separate collection of preset rooms to populate the procedurally generated levels. This puts a new constraint on the layout – since they have “standard” sizes that have to fit together – and also prevents me from figuring out the content of the map on a “micro” level. The most I can do is give it a theme that will then determine what types of presets can be spawned. But on the flipside, I no longer have to fill out every room by hand.

All the green plots in the map below are spaces reserved for presets:

35d239546202f88f8fc8b6b63f24f2f93130a05b.png


The presets themselves are divided into a number of categories, for simplicity’s sake let’s name four: small, big, outdoor, indoor. Small ones are meant to be intermediate building blocks with less tactical significance whose chief purpose is to make the map less “geometrically uniform.” The big ones are the meat of the game – with the actual objectives, obstacles, collectables and all the rest that makes a good gameplay experience. Outdoor presets are surface areas, while indoor are individual rooms – for use in dungeons and outdoor buildings alike.

Some presets, like the one below, can even hold other smaller ones. I’d call these “fractal presets” if I were more pretentious.

9cc9309e900aa38542b5c095cb80f9776e620153.png


Since we don’t have a custom level editor, the software we use for building our maps is Tiled. With that, we can fill out the maps with both automapping based on scripted rules, as well as with the manual placement of features. For example, putting a “wall” token on the ground type layer and letting Tiled handle the automapping immediately generates the appropriate wall sprite together with tokens for line-of-sight and movement obstruction as well as floor sprites. It’s a great tool that takes a while to get used to, but once you’ve learnt it, it makes your job a lot easier.

An example of the end result of working in Tiled is this guarded vault with riches to be plundered:

fa04d1b76a099d1755d1c9eb618cb433c1677466.png


Once the presets are done and the map is laid out, all that’s left is to put it in the game for testing. This is the part that we’re focusing the most on now, because as you can imagine, the results of the procedural generation process are
very
susceptible to bugs. Presets don’t match, doors open into brick walls like in a cartoon, props vanish and leave behind gaping holes into oblivion... But apart from that, there are also mechanical considerations that can only be adjusted after a practical inspection. These include the numbers, types and locations of enemies, the number of “dead ends” that lead to long and unnecessary backtracking, or the distance from the starting spot to the main objective.

The bugs are easy to fix, because they’re usually just oversights in the map files. But the gameplay-related issues can be more tricky, especially since they need to be addressed on a few different planes. For example, the unit count available to the enemy is assigned to the map itself based on its difficulty, but the spawn points and class preferences are defined in the presets. Meanwhile the rules governing the dead ends and objectives are global to prevent anomalies.

A procedurally generated level, as viewed in the game. Please ignore the issues:


72379e54a52e1b69365e73f6cfcddb809feb6d3e.png

As we continue working on the random maps, we’ll be adding even more features to make them more coherent. At the very least, we’d like to have faction-based colouring on props such as banners, broader classification among presets to better determine what can spawn where, and a more robust mission system, where the randomized levels could be matched with appropriate objectives and narrative texts. However, right now our paramount goal is to lay down the foundation and make it function reliably.

We’ll be sure to come back with more news in the near future, and you can also expect to see the results of the process described in this diary for yourselves soon enough. It’s right there in your horoscope!
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,495
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Thank you for the repost!
The random maps have been rolled into the demo (they are the mission West of the citadeal and East of the Tutorial).
They cause some performance issues because the number of animated props can get a bit too high, but I'll look into it next.
After that (and some random issue fixes), we'll start rolling the campaign updates, now that random maps will provide sufficient variations to keep the mission from being too predictable.
 
Last edited:

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,737
Location
Perched on a tree
Thank you for the repost!
The random maps have been rolled into the demo (they are the mission West of the citadeal and East of the Tutorial).
They cause some performance issues because the number of animated props can get a bit too high, but I'll look into it next.
After that (and some random issue fixes), we'll start rolling the campaign updates, now that random maps will provide sufficient variations to keep the mission from being too predictable.

I don't know if there's any "fresh" demo to give you some feedback but I do have one question.

Did you consider to modify the formula and make the maps & exploration per encounter instead of going full X-COM ?
I don't think it fits close combat, even if you can get some archers.

And it would speed up everything with real time exploration and battle encounters starting in pre-defined areas.
You could even add some gimmick where your starting position in battle depends how you entered the room/area.

You probably won't even consider it but I found the action quite slow last time I played, maybe it was improved since then.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,495
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Thank you for the repost!
The random maps have been rolled into the demo (they are the mission West of the citadeal and East of the Tutorial).
They cause some performance issues because the number of animated props can get a bit too high, but I'll look into it next.
After that (and some random issue fixes), we'll start rolling the campaign updates, now that random maps will provide sufficient variations to keep the mission from being too predictable.

I don't know if there's any "fresh" demo to give you some feedback but I do have one question.

Did you consider to modify the formula and make the maps & exploration per encounter instead of going full X-COM ?
I don't think it fits close combat, even if you can get some archers.

And it would speed up everything with real time exploration and battle encounters starting in pre-defined areas.
You could even add some gimmick where your starting position in battle depends how you entered the room/area.

You probably won't even consider it but I found the action quite slow last time I played, maybe it was improved since then.
The inspiration for the combat/dungeon exploration is neither X(-)COM, nor traditional CRPG. It is meant to translate the feel of old school board game exploration like Heroquest/Warhammer Quest and Descent.
We reworked the pacing a lot since last time, but I cannot tell whether it will be sufficient to you, but we have no intention to change course over it (but there are a lot of games that already do the RT explo + TB encoutners anyway).

However, I think Crown Wars: the Black Prince could be closer from what you describe (TB encounters with pods in a fantasy settings).
 

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,737
Location
Perched on a tree
Crown wars looks interesting, I don't know if it's just me but I get some expedition: conquistadors vibes from the battle screens.

I hope your formula works...
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom