Review Chefe does Fallout 3 @ the Codex

[Pseudofool]

The first two Fallouts actually had literary merit.

No, they didn't.

You astound me with both your insight and your brevity. Bravo.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

"You astound me with both your insight and your brevity. Bravo."

You didn't say how they had literary merit, and I didn't say how they didn't. I don't personally consider games that have Mad Max and Monty Python easter eggs to be works of literature. It's cool if you do, though.

 

[DefJam101]

The first two Fallouts actually had literary merit.

No, they didn't.

They were well written. What more does a game need to have literary merit?

Unless you speak of silly-willy anti-postmodern hyperallegories teaching us key conservative lessons about everyday life?


edit: Apparently you do, rurz.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

There are a lot of games that are as well written as Fallout. The Halo series is decently written. Does it have literary merit?

Spoiler

Trick question, there were books based on it, so obviously yes.

 

[dagorkan]

Fallout 2 taught me to beware the Chinese.

 

[Pseudofool]

Literariness does not equate with being well-written. It's the same notion that's often expressed as difference between craft and art. Literature doesn't necessarily need to be didactic; there simply needs to be a credible argument that its authors intend more than merely to entertain--of course the quality of execution matters.

Look, this is open to debate. But I can't see anyone making a credible argument that Fallout 3 is the literary equivalent of the first two. If someone thinks they can make this argument, I'd like to see it.

The first two Fallouts actually had literary merit.

No, they didn't.

They were well written. What more does a game need to have literary merit?

Unless you speak of silly-willy anti-postmodern hyperallegories teaching us key conservative lessons about everyday life?


edit: Apparently you do, rurz.

Anti-postmodernism? Hyperallegories? Oxymoron? Unneeded Prefix?

"You astound me with both your insight and your brevity. Bravo."

You didn't say how they had literary merit, and I didn't say how they didn't. I don't personally consider games that have Mad Max and Monty Python easter eggs to be works of literature. It's cool if you do, though.

Saying something has literary merit is not necessarily the same thing as "works of literature." The first two fallouts recognized their own pastiche, their own genre, and also made some (sometimes overtly blunt) considerations of social and cultural questions that arise in their new world. More than that, there's intellectual depth.

If you don't see Monty Python as literary, your definition is far too narrow.

 

[Mr. Teatime]

To be honest I struggle to be interested in discussing the themes and insights that emerge from playing Fallout 1 and 2. Definition of 'literature' varies but - yeah. I'm afraid the games are just games and I can't think of many that meet the qualities of 'literature' for me. In one sense simply because literature has associations with books and the written word, whereas a computer game is primarily focused from necessity on other areas. 'Art' is an easier word to link to computer games, but even then there are very few that justify the linking. (Braid springs to mind)

Broadening the topic a little, I suspect GTA 4 wanted to view itself as a work of art or literature (and this limited its qualities as a game, for me), but it just wasn't done well. Regardless, I suspect the designers set about creating the game with this goal in mind.

Anyway. I worry this debate will become rather pretentious.

 

[trojan pony]

'the wasteland is empty and desolate' - and apparently, you can't walk 5 steps without running into something

It varies but not in a sensible way. There can be times when you're bouncing from encounter to encounter and others where you feel very alone in a harsh enviroment; travelling half the map only spotting the odd mutant on the horizon. It's a massive improvement on OB which spawned an enemy every tile but it's not a good way to create a believable world. I think my stats have me down as killing 700 mutants and cretures and around 300 humans which is ridiculous considering the population of the wasteland. would require a major shift in gameplay to change that though.

never heard the voice acting, but I've seen people saying it blows

Mixed bag but generally shite. Neeson really sets the tone. I reckon they were too awed by "fricking Liam Neeson" to get the guy to do a second take. There's bits where he leans into the microphone and the volume changes, bits where he mutters and other bits where he pauses mid sentence presumably because the script went onto a new line and he sucks at reading.

'game is filled with numerous skill checks' - yeah, a shame most of them are there for the sake of being there.

Yep. i suppose it's welcome in a way but it has little impact.

'imagine the person with bad dialogues is crazy' - what the hell...

They've done a half-assed job of giving the characters a personality and the retarded dialogues and voice acting can sometimes be intentional.

'a world becomes barren. There are no forests to enjoy, no wildlife to interact with' - wut + 'Birds chirp'

What does that screenie show. A fucked up irradiated husk of a tree and a bramble bush with a small bit of grass. I'm not going to go fanboy and say "ohh you cannae criticise unless you've played it" but seriously, if you're going to bitch and be as pedantic as this you better have more to pull out your ass than a screenshot. What Chefe says holds true here (outside of a couple of areas where the missions dictate otherwise. Oh and the birds are either vultures or crickets. There's been no bob-bob-bbbin robins in my playthrough.
Generally the look and design of the world is the best and most impressive part of the game. Ok it feels much more post-apocalyptic rather than the post-post-apocalyptic it should be but within that it's very consistent and well designed with a lot of care and effort put into designing the dungeons. Generally the explorable areas are above the quality of most half assed shooters i've played in the last 4 years and, considering the numbner of areas in the game, that's quite an acheivement.

'combat can be tough' vs 'VATS can completely eliminate challenges in some areas and bad enemy AI can do the same in Real Time.' - wut

Combat is tough as even with small weapons maxed the sniper rifle has shit accuracy. At about 50m the enemy with a 10mm pistole hits me more times than I hit him with scoped shots. Flick to vats and all of a sudden it's a one shot kill.
What I think Chefe means is that human enemies can be disposed of quite easily in vats by getting close and headshotting them in succession where as out of it they can be more challenging. Monsters such as the Dethclaw have high enough hit points that it's usually hard to kill them in one go using vats so it's usually best to exploit their pathing by getting them stuck on an object and then filling them with real time death.[/quote]

 

[feta]

I was scared to come back to the codex and NOT bash fo3 to oblivion.
Then I saw chefe's review and I know something is really wrong going on here, where are the flamethrowers?

 

[Kingston]

Chefe is pretty boring.

 

[DefJam101]

The first two Fallouts actually had literary merit.

No, they didn't.

They were well written. What more does a game need to have literary merit?

Unless you speak of silly-willy anti-postmodern hyperallegories teaching us key conservative lessons about everyday life?


edit: Apparently you do, rurz.

Anti-postmodernism? Hyperallegories? Oxymoron? Unneeded Prefix?

You disappoint me.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

How about after I slaughter the entire raider camp and make the mistake of talking to Tandi before I open her cell? She says the same damn thing as she did before I mercilessly slaughtered 20 people in front of her eyes. "YOU, fight HIM? You've got to be joking!" No, you stupid skank! Of course I did not just put a bullet into his face. That's why we can easily walk out right now, because his entire crew isn't lying in pools of their own blood. That's roleplaying!

I've never gotten a hiccup in the dialogue on this quest. I've gotten some in other quests in Fallout, but never this one.

Oh, oh, I know! What about when even the simplest of fights can take too fucking long because Dogshit has to make twenty moves per turn?

Uh, turn speed option. If you're not smart enough to find it, it's hardly the game's fault.

It's real immersive when you first get that canine douchebag, too. I'm usually decked out in a spiffy leather jacket and just entered Junktown, and he automatically follows me while I get magical XP for helping fix the dog problem I've never heard about.

The alternative is not to allow picking up the quest until after you've heard of it, which is stupidly silly. Stumbling upon and completing quests without originally picking them up is actually the better design than locking the player out of doing something because he hasn't talked to the right NPC first.

Those glowing ghouls in Necropolis are the best. They are gathered around a dead human that apparently tried to mess with something, yet I can walk right past them, steal the water chip, and walk right back, while stopping to say hello.

And how are they supposed to know you took the chip? Just because they're glowing doesn't mean they're psychic. Given the level of nitpicking here, if they did magically know you took the chip, you'd be bitching about how the glowing ones knew you took the chip when they didn't see you do it.

And let's not forget about after you deliver the water chip. You suddenly know everything there is to know about the FEV and Supermutants, even if you only had encountered those two at the watershed.

There's very little way of getting the waterchip without finding clues about Supermutants. A huge amount of the side quests in the game are supermutant related.

Of course, I wouldn't want to forget the memorable Cathedral scene where you can just walk around breaking into rooms and no one does shit... maybe that traitor bitch should have just tried that instead of hiding out in the room and complaining that these people were too suspicious, because they obviously aren't.

The rooms near the front, you can walk all around. The ones near the back will result in getting attacked.

What about the Brotherhood? That's one hell of a rewarding experience there! Wait... was that even an experience? What the fuck? Nothing happened! "Oh, it's the end of the game, just go kill the mutants and get this crap over with." That's roleplaying!

I take it you didn't actually bother trying anything there, then. There's actually a whole lot of information in Lost Hills. In fact, that's where you discover that Supermutants are sterile by talking to the doctor there, which is how you get to talk The Master in to killing himself.

Now there's some stupidity there as well, like getting the BoS to help you with Mariposa, but they stop at the door.

And skillchecks? Please. In the original there's maybe a charisma check here and there.

There's an INT check right off the bat in the game in Shady Sands where you discuss crop rotation with a farmer, thus solving a quest.

Pumping speech pretty much means "YOU WIN!" in the game of dialog.

And pumping combat skills pretty much means "YOU WIN!" in combat. What's your point here? That the skill affects what it's supposed to affect?

Otherwise you'll have to keep reloading until the coin randomly lands in your favor. "I don't believe you! Die!" Reload. "I don't believe you! Die!" Reload. "I don't believe you. Die!" Reload. "Okay, you can pass." SAVE.

Dialogue choices aren't randomized. Either you pass or you don't.

The best part, though, is going to an area before the game wants you to go there. You suddenly know everything! Then, you go back to the "starting" areas like Shady Sands, and you're ignorant again. That's roleplaying.

No, when you go back to Shady Sands, things have changed, hince Tandi being kidnapped.

I almost forgot to mention how most skills and perks are useless. Tag Barter, Energy Weapons, and First Aid, then try to make it past the rats in the first dungeon. I dare you.

Use the knife. Even when I tag Small Arms, I never waste bullets on the rats in the Vault 13 cave.

 

[SpaceKungFuMan]

I barely speak english. But review is too wordy and not enough lulz. In before Vince's review knock you off.

Oh, of course. I'm looking forward to another review filled with developer quotes, spoilers, and whining.

"Wah! It's not Fallout!"

Yea, it's better. Just like Fallout was better than Wasteland. Maybe I'm not feeling the butthurt all these idiots are feeling because, guess what, I never really cared much for the original game. Dialogs were disjointed, characters didn't seem to care, too many ghost choices, complete lack of difficulty on all levels, and a bunch of other crap.

It's great when, after I help Killian kill Gizmo, that fucker at the front gate still doesn't let me in because I'm "a stranger." That's roleplaying! How about after I slaughter the entire raider camp and make the mistake of talking to Tandi before I open her cell? She says the same damn thing as she did before I mercilessly slaughtered 20 people in front of her eyes. "YOU, fight HIM? You've got to be joking!" No, you stupid skank! Of course I did not just put a bullet into his face. That's why we can easily walk out right now, because his entire crew isn't lying in pools of their own blood. That's roleplaying! Oh, oh, I know! What about when even the simplest of fights can take too fucking long because Dogshit has to make twenty moves per turn? It's real immersive when you first get that canine douchebag, too. I'm usually decked out in a spiffy leather jacket and just entered Junktown, and he automatically follows me while I get magical XP for helping fix the dog problem I've never heard about. lolwut? Those glowing ghouls in Necropolis are the best. They are gathered around a dead human that apparently tried to mess with something, yet I can walk right past them, steal the water chip, and walk right back, while stopping to say hello. And let's not forget about after you deliver the water chip. You suddenly know everything there is to know about the FEV and Supermutants, even if you only had encountered those two at the watershed. Of course, I wouldn't want to forget the memorable Cathedral scene where you can just walk around breaking into rooms and no one does shit... maybe that traitor bitch should have just tried that instead of hiding out in the room and complaining that these people were too suspicious, because they obviously aren't. What about the Brotherhood? That's one hell of a rewarding experience there! Wait... was that even an experience? What the fuck? Nothing happened! "Oh, it's the end of the game, just go kill the mutants and get this crap over with." That's roleplaying!

These complaints about the skill checks not being deep enough and the PC switching personalities is really fucking funny. In the original Fallout, the PC just doesn't switch personalities and intelligence levels between dialog, he sometimes does it within the dialog too! And skillchecks? Please. In the original there's maybe a charisma check here and there. Pumping speech pretty much means "YOU WIN!" in the game of dialog. Otherwise you'll have to keep reloading until the coin randomly lands in your favor. "I don't believe you! Die!" Reload. "I don't believe you! Die!" Reload. "I don't believe you. Die!" Reload. "Okay, you can pass." SAVE. Not that any of it matters, since the gameworld doesn't fucking react, but at least you get those extra caps or fade to black sex and can pretend you're a manly man in your imaginary roleplaying world where this game isn't an overhyped nostalgic shitfest.

The best part, though, is going to an area before the game wants you to go there. You suddenly know everything! Then, you go back to the "starting" areas like Shady Sands, and you're ignorant again. That's roleplaying.

I can't complete this without mentioning the funniest part I've ever found. After you slaughter the entire Skulz gang in the bar with teh coppers, go talk to Sherry. Just do it. That's motherfucking roleplaying!

I almost forgot to mention how most skills and perks are useless. Tag Barter, Energy Weapons, and First Aid, then try to make it past the rats in the first dungeon. I dare you.

Fuck Fallout. I shouldn't have lied, saying things like Fallout begged you to go off the beaten path, because it obviously does the exact opposite, but I did it for you ever-loving fuckers. I should have instead talked about how Fallout 3 totally kicks Fallout's ass in the award for least retarded gameplay experience.

I'm finally playing Fallout 2 right now and you know my verdict? Same shit, different day.

Why exactly did you decide to write the review if you don't even like Fallout? This review is just as bad as all those PC rpg reviews that bitch about RPG conventions being in an RPG. It is basically exactly the same as the NWN2 review that compared the game to Oblivion. Your review isn't any more "objective" than a fully negative review would be. You went into this with an agenda of playing down the value of the series, and everything you wrote in this thread just confirms that.

Of course the big failure here is on the part of the staff who actually posted this review. Everyone knows perfectly well that people who are interested in the Codex review are most likely people who love the first two games and are hesitant to try Fallout 3. The target audience for this review should have been those people and this review simply does not serve them, because the author did not write from their perspective. To make matters worse, people will now use this review to show that "even the guys who hated the game like it because its so good" when that hardly seems to be the consensus here. Put simply, this review does not provide what people expect from a codex review, and as such it makes the codex less relevent to anyone outside our small forum community. Why should people come to the site to read a review that has no more value in terms of entertainment, information, insight, or opinions than the reviews at the "professional" review sites?

Developers read the site and post here for a reason. With a review like this, combined with the lulz, I can't see why a developer would even bother anymore. VD may be gone, but Saint, Section8 and other heavy hitters are still around. Anyone of them could have written a review with real value to developers and gamers. Instead we basically announce to the world that since VD left, there's nothing of interest produced here anymore. We literally took a poster who was banned recently and made him the voice of the codex for one of the most controvertial games in history, and one of the most important symbols of the new direction the industry has gone in. Two months ago he could not even post on this lulz filled messageboard, and now he's allowed to officially declare that the codex is pleased with where PC rpgs are going. . .

 

[Darth Roxor]

The target audience for this review should have been those people and this review simply does not serve them, because the author did not write from their perspective.

Huh? So all the reviews should bash/praise stuff the same way the hivemind thinks? This is no better than the 'professional' reviewers who give 10/10s due to curative fluids. A review should not be written through a prism of a 'target audience', because it loses credibility then.

 

[SpaceKungFuMan]

The target audience for this review should have been those people and this review simply does not serve them, because the author did not write from their perspective.

Huh? So all the reviews should bash/praise stuff the same way the hivemind thinks? This is no better than the 'professional' reviewers who give 10/10s due to curative fluids. A review should not be written through a prism of a 'target audience', because it loses credibility then.

I think its fair to say that a website that is dominated by a forum community should have an official review that is reflective of that forum community. And when that forum community is filled with fallout fans, it seems reasonable that the reviewer for Fallout 3 should at least like those games. We might as well have just copied and pasted the gamespot review. It would be just as relevant to the site as Chefe's review. The value of our past reviews has been in the perspective of traditionalist PC RPG enthusiats. That perspective is hinted at in the review, but not really given voice. I'm not saying the review had to be negative, but it should have at least reflected what the people on the board care about in games.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I think its fair to say that a website that is dominated by a forum community should have an official review that is reflective of that forum community. And when that forum community is filled with fallout fans, it seems reasonable that the reviewer for Fallout 3 should at least like those games. We might as well have just copied and pasted the gamespot review. It would be just as relevant to the site as Chefe's review. The value of our past reviews has been in the perspective of traditionalist PC RPG enthusiats. That perspective is hinted at in the review, but not really given voice. I'm not saying the review had to be negative, but it should have at least reflected what the people on the board care about in games.

A review is the reviewer's opinion on the game. Oh yeah, it should be reviewed by an RPG enthusiast if it's reviewed as an RPG on an RPG site, but as I said, when you review something, it's your opinion and impression of the game, not some collective's opinion. To reflect the Codex's perspective of the game, you'd have to attach a note saying "OTHER CODEXERS THINK THAT THIS GAME: XYZ" under each review. Also, I'd love to see how you write a review that's 'reflective of the forum community' when the community is divided between 'it blows' and 'it's decent'.

 

[Chefe]

Of course the big failure here is on the part of the staff who actually posted this review. Everyone knows perfectly well that people who are interested in the Codex review are most likely people who love the first two games and are hesitant to try Fallout 3. The target audience for this review should have been those people and this review simply does not serve them, because the author did not write from their perspective. To make matters worse, people will now use this review to show that "even the guys who hated the game like it because its so good" when that hardly seems to be the consensus here. Put simply, this review does not provide what people expect from a codex review, and as such it makes the codex less relevent to anyone outside our small forum community. Why should people come to the site to read a review that has no more value in terms of entertainment, information, insight, or opinions than the reviews at the "professional" review sites?

Bingo.

Now, let me state the rest.

The big failure here is on the part of Bethesda Softworks. While FO3 might not be such a bad game per say, Bethesda did not do their job. This is my biggest complaint. ZeniMax bought the license and told them to make a Fallout game. They went ahead and made a completely different game more in line with Oblivion. If someone handed me some tools and a few pieces of wood, and asked me to construct a fence, I wouldn't be doing my job if I built a table. Sure, some people might like tables, but I was asked to construct a fence for fence loving people.

This "accomplishment" from Bethesda Softworks has not only horrible implications for the Fallout world, which is now forever lost, but also the entire industry in general. Even the most dearest of classics are subject to being raped and pillaged. Fallout is about something more than a world destroyed by nuclear weapons. It's is about what games can become. It's an archetype for RPG greatness.

And we, the infamous Codex, are now nothing more than another group of fools on the vast gaming universe. No one else cares so why should we? Our complaints are ad hominem attacks or ridicules of certain gameplay mechanics. The complaints against how this abomination destroys the very nature of the Fallout universe are mostly in small snippets of crass language and mindless insults.

We're soft and stupid. The Decline of the Codex has come full circle.

What is the evidence against "Chefe Does Fallout 3" being the collective thoughts of the Codex hivemind? Our reviews are few and far between, our news is composed of links to sites where real articles are written, and our forums are filled with bile and Bethesda. The review I wrote embodies the intellectual black hole that this place has become.

Seeing as a link to the review was posted on both NMA and RPGWatch, I figured I should come clean before anymore damage was wrought. I'll probably be banned again for doing this, but maybe the whole event will change some attitudes, and that makes it worth it.

As for me, I've just saved Adytum from the Regulators and am heading off to the Glow.

 

[made]

So... the hivemind is a lie? I'm shocked.

 

[Darth Roxor]

omg plot twist

 

[made]

per say

 

[SpaceKungFuMan]

Of course the big failure here is on the part of the staff who actually posted this review. Everyone knows perfectly well that people who are interested in the Codex review are most likely people who love the first two games and are hesitant to try Fallout 3. The target audience for this review should have been those people and this review simply does not serve them, because the author did not write from their perspective. To make matters worse, people will now use this review to show that "even the guys who hated the game like it because its so good" when that hardly seems to be the consensus here. Put simply, this review does not provide what people expect from a codex review, and as such it makes the codex less relevent to anyone outside our small forum community. Why should people come to the site to read a review that has no more value in terms of entertainment, information, insight, or opinions than the reviews at the "professional" review sites?

Bingo.

Now, let me state the rest.

The big failure here is on the part of Bethesda Softworks. While FO3 might not be such a bad game per say, Bethesda did not do their job. This is my biggest complaint. ZeniMax bought the license and told them to make a Fallout game. They went ahead and made a completely different game more in line with Oblivion. If someone handed me some tools and a few pieces of wood, and asked me to construct a fence, I wouldn't be doing my job if I built a table. Sure, some people might like tables, but I was asked to construct a fence for fence loving people.

This "accomplishment" from Bethesda Softworks has not only horrible implications for the Fallout world, which is now forever lost, but also the entire industry in general. Even the most dearest of classics are subject to being raped and pillaged. Fallout is about something more than a world destroyed by nuclear weapons. It's is about what games can become. It's an archetype for RPG greatness.

And we, the infamous Codex, are now nothing more than another group of fools on the vast gaming universe. No one else cares so why should we? Our complaints are ad hominem attacks or ridicules of certain gameplay mechanics. The complaints against how this abomination destroys the very nature of the Fallout universe are mostly in small snippets of crass language and mindless insults.

We're soft and stupid. The Decline of the Codex has come full circle.

What is the evidence against "Chefe Does Fallout 3" being the collective thoughts of the Codex hivemind? Our reviews are few and far between, our news is composed of links to sites where real articles are written, and our forums are filled with bile and Bethesda. The review I wrote embodies the intellectual black hole that this place has become.

Seeing as a link to the review was posted on both NMA and RPGWatch, I figured I should come clean before anymore damage was wrought. I'll probably be banned again for doing this, but maybe the whole event will change some attitudes, and that makes it worth it.

As for me, I've just saved Adytum from the Regulators and am heading off to the Glow.

There isn't really anything for me to add. Well played Chefe. I hope you don't get banned for this. I hope the admins take this to heart.

 

[elander_]

LOL Chefe LOL

The Decline of the Codex has come full circle.

Chefe in 10 years you will still be here saying the same thing.

 

[Helton]

Dog just cause you like smelling your own shit doesn't mean it's fresh.

 

[ushdugery]

I have an English degree, you faggot.

ESL right? Congratulations! How are you liking western culture?

 

[Chefe]

For the sake of the general competency of the Codex I seriously hope you are joking.