NWN2: Storm of Zehir at E3

[Lumpy]

Also, new screenies here: http://www.bbnwn.eu//phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=12191

Looks very nice and sharp. Much better than Mulsantir.
One of the mistakes they made in MotB, imo, is that they cluttered stuff a bit too much for an isometric perspective. The game looked much better in third person, but was pretty much unplayable. It seems that SoZ is designed more with a top-down view in mind.

 

[Jasede]

I would still disagree. Just because new games are more of an RPG than old ones doesn't mean old ones now aren't CRPGs anymore. They were always called that and should be called it still, for tradition's sake.

I'd find it silly to go and call Wizardry hack and slash or whatever. [But I could live with "Dungeon Crawler RPG"]

 

[bezimek]

Also, new screenies here: http://www.bbnwn.eu//phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=12191

Looks very nice and sharp. Much better than Mulsantir.
One of the mistakes they made in MotB, imo, is that they cluttered stuff a bit too much for an isometric perspective. The game looked much better in third person, but was pretty much unplayable. It seems that SoZ is designed more with a top-down view in mind.

Yes, I agree (vide top-down view ). It`s look like Obsydian is learning from his mistakes and NWN2:SoZ should be at least(!) interesting game.

 

[Raapys]

I would still disagree. Just because new games are more of an RPG than old ones doesn't mean old ones now aren't CRPGs anymore. They were always called that and should be called it still, for tradition's sake.

I'd find it silly to go and call Wizardry hack and slash or whatever. [But I could live with "Dungeon Crawler RPG"]

I've basically always gone by the rule that Character Stats that affect the outcome of the player's decisions = RPG( or at least RPG elements ).

You can have a cRPG without C&C, but you can't have a cRPG without character stats.

 

[Jasede]

Agreed, but the "new" crowd like Lumpy doesn't believe it and says everything un-C&C isn't an RPG. Vault Dweller used to at least tell them I was right, but these days I fight the lone fight. The other real RPG connoisseurs like Binary or other older posters are way too mature to argue about this silly shit though, and just smile at the newer fellers.

 

[deuxhero]

This is absolutely not true. The game sold over 1.5 million copies.

Heck, I think we might even be close to 1.75 or 2 million by now.

You don't want me to go in smash-dgaider mode, ehm.. smash-developer mode. This is a topic about SoZ and you talk about kotor 2..

So... is there any more time to change something in SoZ? Like.. instead of armor confering AC they confer damage reduction? Pretty please.

Like:
Plate mail (average) - Damage reduction: 2d5. (calculated on every hit)
Material resistance: 3d3. (like above)

All weapons would have an armor penetration value, which would vary depending on the quality/enchantment (1d4, 1d6, 1d2+2 for example), like the dr and mr of armors. To this value you'd add your halved str/dex modifiers. If this numer is higher than the material resistance roll the damage reduction would be halved.
Copyright by Warden.

What do you think?

We are making a DnD game, so we are limited to what rules we can change.

In DnD, this model of DR that you have described, which kind of represents armor penetration, has been rolled into one value, the Armor Class.

The model you describe rings a bell to me. I vaguely recalling reading about a similar system when I was younger, but it was fixed values and it wasn't DnD. I remember things like chainmail was -2 to damage and plate was -3...or something like that.

I like armor class (and vancian magic, but that isn't here or now)

I would like the animations to match right though... the way NWN2 has it now (every miss is a douge) is just stupid beyond beleif. ( I would also like a 1st ed style weapon effectiveness vs armor chart, but that won't happen.) At least KotOR had parrying animations.

I can't put my finger on it, but something about the mercant shops in the above SSshot looks unfinished, might be the texture. edit:it looks too smooth, as do all the other shots released.

 

[Murk]

All these requests being lobbed at A. Davis seem very silly, do you guys think they're going to change their game (which i'm guessing they're almost done with) just cuz "this dude with a dumbfuck tag at rpgcodex.net said so" ?

I agree with Jasede that wizardry and other dungeon-crawlers ARE RPGs, ... just not good ones ;O

 

[Lumpy]

Agreed, but the "new" crowd like Lumpy doesn't believe it and says everything un-C&C isn't an RPG. Vault Dweller used to at least tell them I was right, but these days I fight the lone fight. The other real RPG connoisseurs like Binary or other older posters are way too mature to argue about this silly shit though, and just smile at the newer fellers.

You know, it doesn't really matter. There are few good games nowadays, who really gives a fuck what genre they belong to. Arcanum may be a great RPG, but I found it to be a poor game.
But to be un-mature and childish, you totally started it by calling dungeon crawlers "real RPGs" implying that C&C Fallout-likes are not real.

 

[Jasede]

Haha, I suppose you have a point. I didn't mean that, though it reads like that. They're both as much RPG to me (though I like the dungeon crawlers more). You're right, Lumpy. It doesn't -really- matter. As long as the game is fun, one could care less what genre it is.

That was one of Looking Glass's mottos by the way. When they made System Shock they didn't go "Hey let's make an FPS!" or "Hey, let's add RPG elements". Nope, they just made the game they wanted - and it was good.

 

[sabishii]

Well the only reason I'd be disappointed (which, overall, I'm really not) is that Obsidian is one of the very few good at making the "C&C RPGs." It's not bad that they're trying something different, but it'd be nice if they finally made the next "replayable classic" a la BG2, PST, FO. Kotor2 showed just glimmer of hope, and MotB was awesome but short, but both didn't last much more than a single playthrough (maybe I'd play MotB again if I didn't make such a crappy character my second time around).

 

[SpaceKungFuMan]

I've basically always gone by the rule that Character Stats that affect the outcome of the player's decisions = RPG( or at least RPG elements ).

You can have a cRPG without C&C, but you can't have a cRPG without character stats.

Agree 100%. Stat resolved everything is where its at. The more player skill I need, the less of an RPG it is. C&C is nice and fun and all, but to be an RPG, your character's stats need to resolve combat, period. Diablo is an action RPG, because stats resolve combat. Oblivion is an action game, because player skill resolves combat, with stats just influencing.

 

[Lumpy]

I wouldn't mind a game that relies entirely on player skill, but adding heavy choice&consequence a la AoD. Actually, I would love a Thief-like game that allowed you freedom of choice, but without stats of any sort (except maybe magic powers or something).
Is there any shooter as described above? Stalker, maybe, or System Shock?

 

[Lumpy]

Kotor2 showed just glimmer of hope, and MotB was awesome but short, but both didn't last much more than a single playthrough (maybe I'd play MotB again if I didn't make such a crappy character my second time around).

MotB is very replayable, but boring areas like the Academy and the Skein get old. Still, the rest of the game lends itself very well to role playing different personalities.

 

[SpaceKungFuMan]

I wouldn't mind a game that relies entirely on player skill, but adding heavy choice&consequence a la AoD. Actually, I would love a Thief-like game that allowed you freedom of choice, but without stats of any sort (except maybe magic powers or something).
Is there any shooter as described above? Stalker, maybe, or System Shock?

That may very well be a fine game, but I would not call it an RPG at all. That's just called good game design.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Well, I can answer only some things.

Sometimes things are held back for PR and Press purposes. Sometimes things are held back because they aren't finished or they are still in flux.

As for the C&C question, I'm not a designer, I'm a programmer. I have not played the actual game through to completion. I have been focusing on Party Gen and Party Chat (which I just finished). I have specific test levels that I use that aren't part of the game.

Someone (Warden I believe) asked about the level you start off at. You effectively start off at level 3.

The reasoning behind this is that Death can strike way too quickly before level 3 and that can intimidate new players and publishers, especially in light of some changes Nathaniel has made to the Death System.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Jasede I'm not looking for an argument here either. Nothing wrong with having a discussion, or a disagreement for that matter, which we clearly are having here.

For me there are two kinds of games that are often confused with the 'RPG' moniker. The first is dungeon crawling. I haven't played the M&M series, but I am an owner of Wizardry 8. To me, that fits that category. I think the BG and IWD games fit it too, though to a lesser extent. These games have a focus primarily on party creation and dungeon exploration. To me, those do not make an RPG.

The second is hack/slash. Games like BG and IWD also fit this category. Of course, there are also the obvious ones like Diablo, Sacred etc. Games where the primary focus is levelling up your character, killing loads of enemies and collecting loot.

I consider MotB to be a proper RPG because, although it has elements of those two categories, it has a large emphasis on the story, which has choices and consequences. The player can affect the storyline and change the outcome depending on the choices he or she makes throughout the game. There is also a large emphasis put on dialogue and interaction with the game world. I think that pretty much sums up what a roleplaying game should be about.

It is for those reasons therefore, why I am very concerned about Storm of Zehir. It seems the focus has been put back into dungeon crawling and party creation, when I prefer games that place more importance in the storyline and gameworld interaction.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Anthony, I know you'll have signed an NDA. So far you've been extremely helpful and pleasant in giving us angry cunts information about the game, but I'd hate to see you fired because of it.

 

[Warden]

Someone (Warden I believe) asked about the level you start off at. You effectively start off at level 3.

The reasoning behind this is that Death can strike way too quickly before level 3 and that can intimidate new players and publishers, especially in light of some changes Nathaniel has made to the Death System.

Yeah, I know you start at level 3... but I was wondering if there's a "tutorial" like in the OC which levels you up from lvl 1 to lvl 3.. just to get the feeling you earned those levels - while not doing anything that could potentially kill you (or scare new players ).



New death system..? Too early to disclose I suppose?

 

[Anthony Davis]

Anthony, I know you'll have signed an NDA. So far you've been extremely helpful and pleasant in giving us angry cunts information about the game, but I'd hate to see you fired because of it.

I haven't said anything that would get me in trouble.

 

[Lumpy]

Yeah, I know you start at level 3... but I was wondering if there's a "tutorial" like in the OC which levels you up from lvl 1 to lvl 3.. just to get the feeling you earned those levels - while not doing anything that could potentially kill you (or scare new players ).

Earned those levels? What's wrong with some campaigns not starting with 18 year olds fresh out of their class academy? I think level 3 is perfectly fine.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Someone (Warden I believe) asked about the level you start off at. You effectively start off at level 3.

The reasoning behind this is that Death can strike way too quickly before level 3 and that can intimidate new players and publishers, especially in light of some changes Nathaniel has made to the Death System.

Yeah, I know you start at level 3... but I was wondering if there's a "tutorial" like in the OC which levels you up from lvl 1 to lvl 3.. just to get the feeling you earned those levels - while not doing anything that could potentially kill you (or scare new players ).



New death system..? Too early to disclose I suppose?

No, there isn't much of a tutorial. By the second expansion, it is generally assumed that people buying the expansion come with a certain level of skill.

Still, that being said, the opening beach level serves as our introduction to the DnD world and the game system and new users should be able to grasp it pretty quickly.

The new death system is not a concrete deal yet. Nathaniel has made some great changes, but we gotta see how they gameplay out.

 

[Warden]

Earned those levels? What's wrong with some campaigns not starting with 18 year olds fresh out of their class academy? I think level 3 is perfectly fine.

I already discussed this..
There's nothing wrong with that. It's just that some people prefer starting at level 1 (from the actual beginning) and not getting free experience which you don't know the in-game provenience. A small xp-awarding tutorial would soften the problem..

 

[Lumpy]

Ah, but that's not from the actual beginning either, as it raises even more questions. Where did your mage study his Magic Missile spell? When did the fighter learn to use a sword? How did the spermatozoon fecundate an ovule?
I hate it when RPGs give me free experience?

 

[Anthony Davis]

Earned those levels? What's wrong with some campaigns not starting with 18 year olds fresh out of their class academy? I think level 3 is perfectly fine.

I already discussed this..
There's nothing wrong with that. It's just that some people prefer starting at level 1 (from the actual beginning) and not getting free experience which you don't know the in-game provenience. A small xp-awarding tutorial would soften the problem..

On a personal level I agree with you - but from a whole picutre, game design point of view, getting one shotted from an orc with a great axe, all while learning the system (all too frequent for some DnD classes) can be a real turn off to a game.

 

[Warden]

No, there isn't much of a tutorial. By the second expansion, it is generally assumed that people buying the expansion come with a certain level of skill.

Still, that being said, the opening beach level serves as our introduction to the DnD world and the game system and new users should be able to grasp it pretty quickly.

I put tutorial in quotation marks for a reason.. It's not that I want a tutorial because I don't know how to pick up an item - it's because I despise getting free xp out of the blue.

So as you enter the game you are immediately given 3000 xp?