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Game News The Banner Saga: Factions is out

Trash

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Tags: Stoic; The Banner Saga; The Banner Saga: Factions

While not as shocking as flying babies it is nice to see progress on this front. The Banner Saga: Factions isn't the full game with single player campaign and choices and consequences and all. It is however the free to play arena thingie they already had going in the Beta. Ulminati took a look at it and considers it to be the usual f2p milking cow.
I've just skimmed it real quick, so I haven't time to do a proper preview/review on it. But it appears there's a cash shop (pretty standard fare for f2p) that sells colour variations for units and XP boosts for additional xp every battle. It's not as atrocious as WoT selling you über ammunition for money. Just convenience and cosmetics as far as I can tell.

So a bit of incline and decline at the same time. Must admit I don't care much for The Banner Saga: Factions but can't wait for the singleplayer to appear.

EDIT: Yikes. It's not f2p right now but is availanble for backers of the Kickstarter. Everyone else can get into it from the 25th on when it's released to the wider public. Here, have some info on the singleplayer progress to help you forget all this.
Coming from a history with BioWare, we’ve familiar with how to create branching story. Where we differ is in the idea that every line needs to be something that the player has chosen. Instead, we provide a choice of what to say when there is an important decision to make, instead of filling dialogue with false choices that loop back to the same place and have no bearing on the conversation.

Heh.
 
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Ulminati

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If I knew I was going to be quoted verbatim, I would have made more effort writing that post. :P

Anyway, the base mechanics in BS:F are fairly solid.The beta was pretty enjoyable but laggy as hell. They seem to have worked out some of the kinks, but the game is still way more of a processor hog than it needs to be. There's definitely room for improvement from a programming perspective. If someone wants to do an actual in-depth piece on this I'm sure Trash would be delighted to post it. I won't be able to do it in a timely fashion since I'm already working on a piece for another game. :)

The cash shop is what you'd expect from a F2P game, mostly selling you in-game currency boosts so you can unlock/level stuff faster. As well as the option to colour your units if you want to get cosmetic.
The upside of all this even if you hate multiplayer-only f2p games is that Factions is going to give stoic a good environment to gather data about unit balance for tweaking the single player game.
 

Grunker

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Ulm said:
But it appears there's a cash shop (pretty standard fare for f2p) that sells [...] XP boosts

Ugh.

They even say "Sign up now for a head-start on XP-gain." Yay. Competitive multiplayer games where time/money spent means getting ahead are always so fun.

Trash said:
It is however the free to play

Uh, as far as I can see, it isn't free to play. At least, it asks me to pay 5$ on the website?

EDIT: Suspicion confirmed:

Stoic said:
Second thing to know is that free access is currently only for those who backed The Banner Saga on Kickstarter. Stoic is accepting access via PayPal for those who did not get the opportunity to back TBS but are looking to access teh Factions beta program:http://stoicstudio.com/forum/enter-the-fray.php
 
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Ulminati

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Ah. My bad. I just got the steam message that my game was out of beta and skimmed the release page.

Grunker -- the xp thing isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be. More experienced units are more expensive to field in your battlegroup, and the game tries to match you against a group with a similar point value. I don't think the game is meant to be nearly as competitive as, say, league of legends.
 

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Ah. My bad. I just got the steam message that my game was out of beta and skimmed the release page.

Grunker -- the xp thing isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be. More experienced units are more expensive to field in your battlegroup, and the game tries to match you against a group with a similar point value.

Oh, so like The Blood Bowl/Warhammer mechanic? That could work, definetely. Though I expect experienced units will still be stronger, just like in Blood Bowl. Otherwise doesn't it fall prey to the same issues that plague games with level scaling - no reason to level up your guys?
 
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Yeah. They get more stats and abilities. I only messed around with it shortly during beta since it didn't really play nice with my rig back then. I'm a bit ambivalent about the f2p store. But I think it was unavoidable in this day and age and leans towards the more tolerable part of the spectrum.

I probably won't get too invested in this until my single player version is out. But I'm pretty content a bunch of people will be play testing the mechanics for me. Hopefully the stoic bros will use the metrics gained from the f2p to make an AI and campaign that provides a good challenge for those of us who crave it
 

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Yeah. They get more stats and abilities. I only messed around with it shortly during beta since it didn't really play nice with my rig back then. I'm a bit ambivalent about the f2p store. But I think it was unavoidable in this day and age and leans towards the more tolerable part of the spectrum.

Path of Exile manages the epitome of F2P (no gameplay or edge-related stuff at all) in this day and age, why shouldn't Stoic be able to?

I probably won't get too invested in this until my single player version is out. But I'm pretty content a bunch of people will be play testing the mechanics for me. Hopefully the stoic bros will use the metrics gained from the f2p to make an AI and campaign that provides a good challenge for those of us who crave it

I'll be watchin'.
 
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Ulminati

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This was in my mailbox.

A time of reckoning is upon us. All of us at Stoic are proud to announce, after burning the midnight oil for many moons, that beta has ended for The Banner Saga: Factions and soft launch is today!
What does that mean? In industry terms, soft launch is a short period in which a game is finished and complete, but released to a limited public.
Also, it is a thank you to our generous and wonderful backers to get a head start on the release build of the game. Your progress is being saved this week and carries over for the official launch.
ks_banner.jpg

There are some special perks available this week only, and every backer has a special green jade stone shown on your combat emblem that is exclusive to backers and early access players that are yours forever.
From Feb 18th - Feb 24th Factions will be available exclusively to backers. The current characters, stats and rankings have been wiped for the last time and the game is essentially now LIVE, along with a fully functional tutorial. Later in the week we’ll be holding the first tournament exclusively for backers.
Factions will be released to the public on Feb 25th. If you’ve been waiting for beta to end before trying the game, this is your week.
With Factions’ launch, we’ve effectively worked out the thick and thin of combat and we’re soon on to travel and conversation outlined in the previous update, and thus, the single player campaign. Consider this the first major milestone on the road to success!
From all of us here at Stoic,
Skal!

So Feb 25th shold be Free Free 2 Play™ release for the unwashed masses.
 

ironyuri

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Can we please start calling this the DING DONG BANNU SAGA? Considering some of the devs are ex-Bioware.. please?
 
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Ulminati

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We'll call it the DING DONG BANNU SAGA™ if it deserves it. So far, Stoic have been pretty bro and delivered exactly what they promised.
 

Metro

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Been looking for a turn based strat fix since burning out Warlock and Civ 5 -- hopefully this fills the bill for a bit.
 

Trash

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Only played the beta for a bit when they just launched. Game has made some remarkable progress since then. It's actually fun now for starters. That intro also really got me wanting to play sp.
 
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The last update they sent is pretty sad

Q&A with Alex
Hey everybody! We’ve had so much going on that it’s been hard to find the time
to catch our breaths. With Factions coming out in the next week this seemed
like a good time to catch up with our backers and have a nice chat.

Basically, we know there are lots of questions about the project right now.
We’ve answered every question we can find, in as many places as possible, but we
think it’d be helpful for everyone if we rounded them together for an update.

I’ll also be happy to field any questions in the comments section below if you
don’t see it in this update!

*The release date on the project said November, now it’s February and you’re
just releasing some multiplayer thing I didn’t even want. What gives?*

This is the biggest issue we want to address.

When we set a launch date of November, we didn’t know if we’d match our
funding or not. If I’m completely honest it was probably too optimistic, even if we
had only gotten the minimum funding. We should have known better, and I
apologize for that mistake.

Just as importantly, we made 7x the funding we expected. We made the game
exponentially bigger. Imagine a tv show that gets picked up for 7 more seasons, or
a book that gets made into a 7-part series or a 20-minute indie film being
given the funding to turn it into a 2 hour feature film. All of these things take a
long time. And hopefully, every one of these examples means a much better end
result.

*Where did this Factions thing come from anyway? I don’t remember hearing
about it.*

We mentioned a free multiplayer standalone at the end of our Kickstarter pitch
video. At the time it was more of a side note, and not what we wanted to focus
on. Near the end of the campaign we added a stretch goal to add player-owned
cities to Factions. Again, a lot of people didn’t realize we were talking about
the multiplayer game.

As for personally? We love single player RPGs and we love multiplayer matches.
We loved the idea of working on both of these things in the same world and
sharing the content and tech.

*Why make Factions at all, instead of just making the single player game?*

Factions started out as a way to give backers a playable part of the game
early. It also turned into a huge endeavor.

We got beta players, and we got lots of feedback, and we ended up making the
best combat system we could. As we developed the combat we made huge
improvements to the game. We reworked the interface three times until it was really
intuitive, and we overhauled the classes dozens of times. We really fine-tuned and
polished the hell out of the art and the combat mechanics. The depth and scope of
the multiplayer game is far beyond what we had originally set out to do.

Did we spend too long on this system? Maybe. It’s still hard for me to know
for sure. Making a single player game is vastly more simple than making a
multiplayer game, and these challenges cost us more time than we would have liked.

At the same time, if we had not gone through this process, the game, both
single and multi-player, would be significantly lower quality than it is now,
without a doubt.

We say it in every single update, but it’s 100% true - the combat in factions
was made for the single player game, and we’ve used that to make a fully
functional game that you can play now! We had really hoped people would see this is a
huge bonus.

Ultimately, which choice would you have made? We know there are people on both
sides of the issue, and we’ve seen both good and bad results from the path
that we’ve decided to go down.

*Factions just looks like a cash grab to me.*

It really bums me out to see this sentiment, we have tried really hard to
avoid it. First off, let me mention that this is not our goal. We didn’t set out to
make a f2p game with the funding from the single player game which we crap out
as an afterthought.

We’re using any revenue we get for salaries. None of the core team have been
taking income since we started the company last January. Unlike many Kickstarter
funded projects which pay mostly for salary, the $650k that we received after
Kickstarter and Amazon’s cut have gone squarely into production: programming
support, animation, audio, music, sound, QA, writing, office space, legal fees
and software. This isn’t said for sympathy - we knew what we were getting into
and we also have a buffer in case things get dire. This is simply the reality of
why we’re raising money.

*Factions looks like a grindy, pay to win game.*

We’ve heard some major, and valid, concerns so far: the shop is overpriced,
earning renown is too slow, and buying Renown or characters means the game is pay
to win.

We’ll be making a lot of adjustments to costs this week. We’ve removed all
renown costs to adjust your stats on a character, because this is a core part of
what makes it fun to experiment with characters and teams. Now it’s free! We
significantly lowered the price of color variations. We’re also adding a lot of
achievements that grant bonus renown to make earning renown happen a lot
quicker.

As for “paying to win”, this honestly shouldn’t be the case. Your team has a
rating (a total of each character’s rank) and you’ll always be matched up
against teams with a similar rating. No matter how your opponent made his team,
you’ll be fighting on equal footing. In addition to matching by total rank, we also
use each player’s ELO (ranking) to find equivalent matches, so that veterans
tend to match each other before new players.

There has also been an exploit that allowed players to artificially lower
their team power so that they could intentionally fight against new players. First
of all, this is unbelievably lame of some players, but we’re also putting in
changes to how team power calculates to make sure it doesn’t happen at launch. In
addition, we’re also adding safeguards so that new players only match against
other new players based on how long they’ve been playing. Whether this works
will rely somewhat on how big our population is at launch.

*Will there be microtransactions in the single player game?*


No.

*Will I miss out on anything in the single player game if I don’t play
Factions?*

No (except having fun).

Now, that said, we’ve put a lot of thought and effort into Factions. It’s not
just a mindless one-off from The Banner Saga. Factions takes place in the same
world, in a city that is part of the single player game and when events happen
in single player they’ll affect the world in Factions. As we create new system
for the Saga we’ll be testing them through Factions, so things like playing
against the computer will appear in Factions as we work out the code, and the
story will all tie together.

*I don’t care how you explain Factions, I hate everything about it, I wish you
didn’t make it and I feel like you tricked me into paying for something I
don’t want.*

I suspect some people feel like this. To those people, I would say I do
understand. We became very ambitious and wanted to do the best work we could. The
result is that it took a lot of time. We do not expect Factions to buy us yachts
and mansions, just to pay for some living expenses. As our first time running a
studio of our own, we’ve learned an enormous amount in both production and
management. We hope you’ll accept our apology, and we strongly believe that we’ve
taken the correct steps to make the best possible game. It will be worth the
wait.

*How do I upload my crest?*

This has changed from the original upload idea, because that would have been
very messy. You will now be able to upload your image in the game itself, when
it releases. This way, nobody will miss any deadlines and you’ll be able to see
it right in the game. Don’t worry, this is still EXCLUSIVE to backers!

*Will Factions be ported to Linux /iOS /console?*

No, we don’t intend to put Factions on anything but PC and Mac. Now that it’s
out, we’re moving on to the rest of the single player campaign and cannot
afford to spend weeks or months porting the multiplayer standalone. Our stretch
goals applied only to the single player game.

*When is the single player game coming out?*

Our best guess right now is between mid and late this year. We’re a little shy
of giving specific dates this time around, but we are full steam ahead on
this. What we do promise is that we’ll continue to do regular updates on our
progress, so that you can see how everything is coming together.

*I still don’t completely understand combat and I’m getting crushed every time
I play. What do I do?*

We’ve included four different tutorials in the game. The first one covers the
basics and you play through it when you boot up the game. On the main screen in
Strand, you can click the banner button in the upper right. This shows you a
cheat sheet of the most important things in combat and also includes two
training videos. These will cover every single aspect of Factions. Lastly, every page
has a ? button in the lower right. Clicking this will tell you what you need to
know for that screen.

*How do you feel about the game?*

Personally, I think it’s coming along incredibly, and I’m not just saying
that. My biggest regret is how long it is taking, but it’s coming out better than I
had ever hoped. Some players have been rather upset about the delays, while
others have told us to take as long as we need. The truth is, we only have as
long as we have funds to pay ourselves. We can’t work on this forever.

I couldn’t be happier with our progress so far; for what we’ve done with a
small team I don’t think I could imagine anything better. Despite the insane hours
we’ve been putting in, I’ve never been prouder of anything I’ve made before,
and we hope at the end of the day you guys agree it was worth it.

*Thanks!*

So basically they're saying that they are not taking one cent from the game to pay for their living expenses, and factions only exists to give them revenue that they need to live.

To me, this is another sign that the Kickstarter model cannot sustain even modest medium range games.
 

Rpgsaurus Rex

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Not sure about this... I want to be optimistic but P2W in a competitive game = shit, always.

edit: oh nvm, it will have single player
 
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Ulminati

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Not sure about this... I want to be optimistic but P2W in a competitive game = shit, always.

edit: oh nvm, it will have single player

As far as I can tell from the littl eI played to check it out, it's not really pay to win.

You use renown to hire units and xp to level them up. You can use the cash shop to get renown/xp faster to reduce the grind. But bringing along high level units increases the point value of your party, and you're matched against a party of a similar point value. So paying lets you get to the fancy units faster but it won't actually give you an advantage over free players. You can also pay for bigger barracks so you have more options to swap shit out and try new compositions, or you can pay to change the color of your dudes clothing. But that seems to be it.

So they're selling convenience and cosmetics, not power.


Anyway, I did mess around with this during beta and the UI and gameplay does feel more polished now. So even if it means they delayed the single player game I paid for I can't deny that factions most likely gives me a better product when it's released. Whether it'll give me a good product is still up in the air. But I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll end with BROic entertainment and not Bannu Saga.
 

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So why level up your guys Ulm? What's my motivation? If I can rake in ELO as much with a fresh team as I can without it? Yeah, I get new powers, I do in Oblivion as well.

This is basically level-scaling taken to a multiplayer-level.
 
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Ulminati

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Grunker -- I'm guessing the tournaments they intend to do will have a set limit on party point value, much like blood bowl team values. If you intend to enter those, you'd probably need a roster of leveled-up dudes with a few spares to swap in to adjust your strategy. But the important point is that the store sells convenience, not power.

At least I won't see any sky archer minefield bullshit like in beta if I stick to a low point value party :P
 

Grunker

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Doesn't really answer my question though. In Blood Bowl I have motivation because my 1400 team will be better than the 1000 team with inducements, which I might very well face. Not so in Factions. Why do I want to level up in Factions?

Their problem is that as long as they have Reknown that can be bought, they can't make XP crucial to winning and succeeding, because P2W. And as long as they can't do that, why should I bother?

Honestly, I don't like that design at all. XP is already of dubious caliber in Blood Bowl because of inflation, this just seems like a worse version of that mechanic, basically always pitting teams with equal TV against each other, thus negating the XP system entirely.

If tournaments have limits and you can indeed face teams with higher Reknown, then yes: The shop does sell power.
 
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Ulminati

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I don't think we're going to agree on this Grunker. Our definition of what constitutes selling power is different. I don't think selling reknown is selling power, because players can also gain it by playing the game normally. Selling power in my definition is something like what World of Tanks does. They have two seperate currencies (well, 3 if you count XP) -- Silver and Gold. You earn silver from playing and you can only buy gold. Gold can be converted into silver or buy you xp/silver boosts so you accumulate it faster. But it'll also allow you to buy paint jobs that give +5% camouflage and are unavailable to non-paying players. There are also special tanks you can only get with gold (although they tend to be weaker than fully upgraded counterparts of the same tier). The real kicker however is gold ammunition. You can buy ammo for gold that has double the armor penetration of regular ammunition. Which means that instead of meticulously having to sneak up behind people and aiming for weak spots, you cna just plink away at their front armor and expect penetrating hits.

I'll just let that sit there for a moment. You can get a very real and very signifigant advantage if you pay real money every time you pill the trigger. That's selling power in a F2P store.
 

Grunker

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because players can also gain it by playing the game normally.

But at what rate? League of Legends is the most lenient system I know that works in this way, but even here, the barrier to be able to play competitively is pretty fucking steep. In a game where XP/IP isn't even about relative power (I can't trade champions with my buddy) but about absolute power (my guys are simply better than yours), the system is even more crippling.
 

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Rate does not matter, matchmaking system will match you against your equals who spend same amount of renkown. So matches will be on equal ground. If they can manage it properly though:)
And i dont think anybody who buy his way to the top instantly, will able to play on the same level who got there with only playing. There are really good tactical players in MP right now who can wipe floor with you.



They also said they made respecing characters are now free so we can experiment without hesitation.
 

Grunker

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Rate does not matter, matchmaking system will match you against your equals who spend same amount of renkown. So matches will be on equal ground. If they can manage it properly though:)
And i dont think anybody who buy his way to the top instantly, will able to play on the same level who got there with only playing. There are really good tactical players in MP right now who can wipe floor with you.



They also said they made respecing characters are now free so we can experiment without hesitation.



Grunker said:
Doesn't really answer my question though. In Blood Bowl I have motivation because my 1400 team will be better than the 1000 team with inducements, which I might very well face. Not so in Factions. Why do I want to level up in Factions?

Their problem is that as long as they have Reknown that can be bought, they can't make XP crucial to winning and succeeding, because P2W. And as long as they can't do that, why should I bother?

Honestly, I don't like that design at all. XP is already of dubious caliber in Blood Bowl because of inflation, this just seems like a worse version of that mechanic, basically always pitting teams with equal TV against each other, thus negating the XP system entirely.

If tournaments have limits and you can indeed face teams with higher Reknown, then yes: The shop does sell power.

Cyberarmy: If matchmaking is always against teams of the same reknown as you, there is no motivation for XP. If there is motivation for XP, then rate does matter.
 
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Ulminati

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Higher xp -> more unit abilities -> new tactical options -> meeting players who've (probably) played the game more and provide more interesting challenges than wiping the floor with EUNE-level scrubs.

YMMV. It's not for everyone. If you don't like it, just think of it as them getting a bunch of people to playtest your game for you so it'll be more interesting upon its eventual release I guess.
 

Grunker

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Higher xp -> more unit abilities -> new tactical options -> meeting players who've (probably) played the game more and provide more interesting challenges than wiping the floor with EUNE-level scrubs.

In other words, you're agreeing with me: There is no competitive motivation for gathering Reknown.

YMMV. It's not for everyone. If you don't like it, just think of it as them getting a bunch of people to playtest your game for you so it'll be more interesting upon its eventual release I guess.

I am very interested in the gameplay and playing this multiplayer. In fact I'm almost certain I'm gonna play it. Which is why I am so critical and sad about the fact that their competitive system seems to be pretty obviously broken in its structure.

This is, essentially, the multiplayer-version of level scaling.
 
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Ulminati

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They iterated fairly quickly during beta and they've stated they intend factions to be the testing ground for the components to the single player game. SO further abilities, ai and so forth should show its face eventually. At the moment, the only motivation for gathering reknown is to have a more entertaining game against a better opponent with more of the mechanics in play.
 

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