Game News The Banner Saga: Factions is out

[Cyberarmy]

Yes, there is no competitive motivation for gathering reknown but it dont really need one, just like chess. Only competitive motivation game has will be leaderboards methinks.

 

[Grunker]

Yes, there is no competitive motivation for gathering reknown but it dont really need one, just like chess. Only competitive motivation game has will be leaderboards methinks.

There is motivation for everything you do in chess. There is no superflous XP-mechanic that is not related to your competitive status within the game.

 

[Commissar Draco]

The last update they sent is pretty sad

Spoiler

Q&A with Alex
Hey everybody! We’ve had so much going on that it’s been hard to find the time
to catch our breaths. With Factions coming out in the next week this seemed
like a good time to catch up with our backers and have a nice chat.

Basically, we know there are lots of questions about the project right now.
We’ve answered every question we can find, in as many places as possible, but we
think it’d be helpful for everyone if we rounded them together for an update.

I’ll also be happy to field any questions in the comments section below if you
don’t see it in this update!

*The release date on the project said November, now it’s February and you’re
just releasing some multiplayer thing I didn’t even want. What gives?*

This is the biggest issue we want to address.

When we set a launch date of November, we didn’t know if we’d match our
funding or not. If I’m completely honest it was probably too optimistic, even if we
had only gotten the minimum funding. We should have known better, and I
apologize for that mistake.

Just as importantly, we made 7x the funding we expected. We made the game
exponentially bigger. Imagine a tv show that gets picked up for 7 more seasons, or
a book that gets made into a 7-part series or a 20-minute indie film being
given the funding to turn it into a 2 hour feature film. All of these things take a
long time. And hopefully, every one of these examples means a much better end
result.

*Where did this Factions thing come from anyway? I don’t remember hearing
about it.*

We mentioned a free multiplayer standalone at the end of our Kickstarter pitch
video. At the time it was more of a side note, and not what we wanted to focus
on. Near the end of the campaign we added a stretch goal to add player-owned
cities to Factions. Again, a lot of people didn’t realize we were talking about
the multiplayer game.

As for personally? We love single player RPGs and we love multiplayer matches.
We loved the idea of working on both of these things in the same world and
sharing the content and tech.

*Why make Factions at all, instead of just making the single player game?*

Factions started out as a way to give backers a playable part of the game
early. It also turned into a huge endeavor.

We got beta players, and we got lots of feedback, and we ended up making the
best combat system we could. As we developed the combat we made huge
improvements to the game. We reworked the interface three times until it was really
intuitive, and we overhauled the classes dozens of times. We really fine-tuned and
polished the hell out of the art and the combat mechanics. The depth and scope of
the multiplayer game is far beyond what we had originally set out to do.

Did we spend too long on this system? Maybe. It’s still hard for me to know
for sure. Making a single player game is vastly more simple than making a
multiplayer game, and these challenges cost us more time than we would have liked.

At the same time, if we had not gone through this process, the game, both
single and multi-player, would be significantly lower quality than it is now,
without a doubt.

We say it in every single update, but it’s 100% true - the combat in factions
was made for the single player game, and we’ve used that to make a fully
functional game that you can play now! We had really hoped people would see this is a
huge bonus.

Ultimately, which choice would you have made? We know there are people on both
sides of the issue, and we’ve seen both good and bad results from the path
that we’ve decided to go down.

*Factions just looks like a cash grab to me.*

It really bums me out to see this sentiment, we have tried really hard to
avoid it. First off, let me mention that this is not our goal. We didn’t set out to
make a f2p game with the funding from the single player game which we crap out
as an afterthought.

We’re using any revenue we get for salaries. None of the core team have been
taking income since we started the company last January. Unlike many Kickstarter
funded projects which pay mostly for salary, the $650k that we received after
Kickstarter and Amazon’s cut have gone squarely into production: programming
support, animation, audio, music, sound, QA, writing, office space, legal fees
and software. This isn’t said for sympathy - we knew what we were getting into
and we also have a buffer in case things get dire. This is simply the reality of
why we’re raising money.

*Factions looks like a grindy, pay to win game.*

We’ve heard some major, and valid, concerns so far: the shop is overpriced,
earning renown is too slow, and buying Renown or characters means the game is pay
to win.

We’ll be making a lot of adjustments to costs this week. We’ve removed all
renown costs to adjust your stats on a character, because this is a core part of
what makes it fun to experiment with characters and teams. Now it’s free! We
significantly lowered the price of color variations. We’re also adding a lot of
achievements that grant bonus renown to make earning renown happen a lot
quicker.

As for “paying to win”, this honestly shouldn’t be the case. Your team has a
rating (a total of each character’s rank) and you’ll always be matched up
against teams with a similar rating. No matter how your opponent made his team,
you’ll be fighting on equal footing. In addition to matching by total rank, we also
use each player’s ELO (ranking) to find equivalent matches, so that veterans
tend to match each other before new players.

There has also been an exploit that allowed players to artificially lower
their team power so that they could intentionally fight against new players. First
of all, this is unbelievably lame of some players, but we’re also putting in
changes to how team power calculates to make sure it doesn’t happen at launch. In
addition, we’re also adding safeguards so that new players only match against
other new players based on how long they’ve been playing. Whether this works
will rely somewhat on how big our population is at launch.

*Will there be microtransactions in the single player game?*


No.

*Will I miss out on anything in the single player game if I don’t play
Factions?*

No (except having fun).

Now, that said, we’ve put a lot of thought and effort into Factions. It’s not
just a mindless one-off from The Banner Saga. Factions takes place in the same
world, in a city that is part of the single player game and when events happen
in single player they’ll affect the world in Factions. As we create new system
for the Saga we’ll be testing them through Factions, so things like playing
against the computer will appear in Factions as we work out the code, and the
story will all tie together.

*I don’t care how you explain Factions, I hate everything about it, I wish you
didn’t make it and I feel like you tricked me into paying for something I
don’t want.*

I suspect some people feel like this. To those people, I would say I do
understand. We became very ambitious and wanted to do the best work we could. The
result is that it took a lot of time. We do not expect Factions to buy us yachts
and mansions, just to pay for some living expenses. As our first time running a
studio of our own, we’ve learned an enormous amount in both production and
management. We hope you’ll accept our apology, and we strongly believe that we’ve
taken the correct steps to make the best possible game. It will be worth the
wait.

*How do I upload my crest?*

This has changed from the original upload idea, because that would have been
very messy. You will now be able to upload your image in the game itself, when
it releases. This way, nobody will miss any deadlines and you’ll be able to see
it right in the game. Don’t worry, this is still EXCLUSIVE to backers!

*Will Factions be ported to Linux /iOS /console?*

No, we don’t intend to put Factions on anything but PC and Mac. Now that it’s
out, we’re moving on to the rest of the single player campaign and cannot
afford to spend weeks or months porting the multiplayer standalone. Our stretch
goals applied only to the single player game.

*When is the single player game coming out?*

Our best guess right now is between mid and late this year. We’re a little shy
of giving specific dates this time around, but we are full steam ahead on
this. What we do promise is that we’ll continue to do regular updates on our
progress, so that you can see how everything is coming together.

*I still don’t completely understand combat and I’m getting crushed every time
I play. What do I do?*

We’ve included four different tutorials in the game. The first one covers the
basics and you play through it when you boot up the game. On the main screen in
Strand, you can click the banner button in the upper right. This shows you a
cheat sheet of the most important things in combat and also includes two
training videos. These will cover every single aspect of Factions. Lastly, every page
has a ? button in the lower right. Clicking this will tell you what you need to
know for that screen.

*How do you feel about the game?*

Personally, I think it’s coming along incredibly, and I’m not just saying
that. My biggest regret is how long it is taking, but it’s coming out better than I
had ever hoped. Some players have been rather upset about the delays, while
others have told us to take as long as we need. The truth is, we only have as
long as we have funds to pay ourselves. We can’t work on this forever.

I couldn’t be happier with our progress so far; for what we’ve done with a
small team I don’t think I could imagine anything better. Despite the insane hours
we’ve been putting in, I’ve never been prouder of anything I’ve made before,
and we hope at the end of the day you guys agree it was worth it.

*Thanks!*

So basically they're saying that they are not taking one cent from the game to pay for their living expenses, and factions only exists to give them revenue that they need to live.

To me, this is another sign that the Kickstarter model cannot sustain even modest medium range games.

Glad I didn't donated to their kickstarter. Good rule is show us demo or GTFO.

 

[Ulminati]

Good rule is show us demo or GTFO.

You mean the factions thing they just released that showcases the combat mechanics and UI and crashes a hell of a lot less than cleves effort?

 

[Commissar Draco]

Good rule is show us demo or GTFO.

You mean the factions thing they just released that showcases the combat mechanics and UI and crashes a hell of a lot less than cleves effort?

I didn't donate to Cleve neither Smart Ass. VD and Styg made good quality demos and only then got my Jewgold.

 

[Ulminati]

Good rule is show us demo or GTFO.

You mean the factions thing they just released that showcases the combat mechanics and UI and crashes a hell of a lot less than cleves effort?

I didn't donate to Cleve neither Smart Ass. VD and Styg made good quality demos and only then got my Jewgold.

Never said you did. But the thread is about how Stoic is releasing what is essentially a demo of Banner saga and you go "Show us the demo or GTFO".

They have shown your their honor. Now you must show them yours! :bloodandthunder:

 

[Commissar Draco]

Demo how much time after Kickstarter? 6 months? a Year?

Good rule is show us demo or GTFO.

You mean the factions thing they just released that showcases the combat mechanics and UI and crashes a hell of a lot less than cleves effort?

I didn't donate to Cleve neither Smart Ass. VD and Styg made good quality demos and only then got my Jewgold.

Never said you did. But the thread is about how Stoic is releasing what is essentially a demo of Banner saga and you go "Show us the demo or GTFO".

They have shown your their honor. Now you must show them yours! :bloodandthunder:

Demo done months after Kickstarter ended but No problem bro here's my honor:

Spoiler

 

[Kem0sabe]

Have you guys played it? is it good? Multiplayer is not realy my thing, tho i would be down to trying it as i love the aesthetics and the idea behind the single player game.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Have you guys played it? is it good? Multiplayer is not realy my thing, tho i would be down to trying it as i love the aesthetics and the idea behind the single player game.

Its really good if you like tactical gameplay, it is not something to play 7/24 but its entertaining and got decent player base right now. But this can change with grand opening since its free for everyone now

 

[Metro]

Demo how much time after Kickstarter?

You realize Cleve's demo didn't come out until months after this first Indie Go-go campaign, right (never mind the fact he's had seventeen years to produce something)? I don't even know why they would allow someone to do a second for the same product.

 

[almondblight]

It looks like the issue a lot of people have is doing a Kickstarter for a single-player RPG and then releasing some free to play arena multiplayer game instead. Yeah, the RPG is still on its way and yeah, things happen. But if I gave them money for an RPG and they went overtime working on free to play multiplayer, I'd be pissed.

 

[Metro]

They said all along they'd be releasing the F2P multiplayer iteration first.

 

[almondblight]

They said that free multiplayer demo would be released last summer to showcase combat. They also said that the single-player campaign was their main focus. I suppose a cynical person could take that that mean that they were going to blow their deadline working on a F2P game with the single-player campaign being put on the back burner, but it seems a lot of backers took them at their word.

 

[Metro]

So the upshot is... they just made a poor estimation of how long it would take them to produce things? Hardly an uncommon fault amongst the Kickstarter projects. To argue that they 'delayed' the single player in favor of the multiplayer makes little sense. In order to have a single player campaign you sort of need a working combat system, yes? Seems like natural progression. Would people be happier if no multiplayer were released at all and you'd just have a vacant gap until the single player was released?

If you had a situation like Runic delaying Torchlight 2 to make an Xbox version of TL1 or the Miner Wars developers promising (and taking money based on) two separate entities (MMO and single player) and then simply releasing a 'single player' game that requires an always online DRM then maybe I could see where people felt cheated.

This F2P thing is A. The full RPG consists of A+B. It isn't as if they are producing C before A+B.

 

[Grunker]

So the upshot is... they just made a poor estimation of how long it would take them to produce things? Hardly an uncommon fault amongst the Kickstarter projects. To argue that they 'delayed' the single player in favor of the multiplayer makes little sense. In order to have a single player campaign you sort of need a working combat system, yes? Seems like natural progression. Would people be happier if no multiplayer were released at all and you'd just have a vacant gap until the single player was released?

I think what almondblight is saying is that the amount of focus that went into the multiplayer is troublesome. The multiplayer might have become this huge, important project, simultaneously delaying the singleplayer and drawing manpower away from it.

 

[Metro]

I know, I just doubt it consumed that much of their time. It doesn't appear to be anything more than the combat engine with a couple of lobbies/matchmaking/whatever. That is to say, most likely a good 90% or more of the assets/work that went into the multiplayer are probably necessary and/or will be reused for the single player.



Also, let's keep in mind most people would probably want/demand a multiplayer for this type of game, anyway.

 

[Grunker]

The game looks hawt - both graphics and systems seem sweet

It's a pity Ohmwrecker doesn't display more of the different classes and stuff though. Gonna play the shit out of this the 25th

 

[Metro]

Indeed. I didn't preorder/give to the Kickstarter but I'm definitely looking forward to playing this in a few days. If I enjoy it I might even D1P the single player.

 

[Mother Russia]

Does this game have spellcasting and/or cool supernatural abilities/units?

 

[almondblight]

So the upshot is... they just made a poor estimation of how long it would take them to produce things?

I suppose if you took "We decided to release the combat as a free standalone because we think it'll be fun and we'd love to get some early feedback on the combat system" to mean "We decided to create a F2P game first with the funds before we make the single player game" you wouldn't be upset. But from the look of the comment section, it seems like a number of backers didn't expect that based on what Stoic said. I can't say that I blame them.

 

[Metro]

I hate to keep repeating myself but since you keep repeating the same argument (and ignoring all of my elaboration explaining why)... I will:

It doesn't appear to be anything more than the combat engine with a couple of lobbies/matchmaking/whatever. That is to say, most likely a good 90% or more of the assets/work that went into the multiplayer are probably necessary and/or will be reused for the single player.

Anyone contending what they're releasing now is a deviation from the product they ultimately have to put out -- hell arguably a necessary precursor to what they have to put out -- is dumb. Period. Not going to sugarcoat it.

 

[Trash]

Not to mention that when they first released Factions to Beta testers it really was a buggy, unoptimised and clunky mess. Methinks they also used it to do some massive QA through the player base. I really like how far they've come with it and frankly think it bodes really well for the SP.

 

[almondblight]

Probably. No extra work is needed to monetize multiplayer and turn it into its own game (and don't blame the developers -people would demand multiplayer! F2P is a "necessary precursor" to strategy games!), and the fact that the development time for single-player is now at least twice what they said it would be is just a coincidence. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dumb.

 

[Ulminati]

1) They got 7 times the funding they asked for and as a result are implementing a bunch of stretch goals. Since they haven't increased their staff drastically, it stands to reason it'll take them longer to implement the product.
2) They admitted they messed up in the planning, so slippage would probably occur even if they ditched factions. In fact, Conquistador seems to be the only one of the recent kickstarter games that will release on schedule. You'd better get used to kickstarter games showing up late.
3) The F2P multiplayer-only version was there right from the start in the initial kickstarter pitch. People who are surprised about it need to lrn2read
4) Nearly every single asset in the multiplayer game - graphics, sound, code - is going to be used in the singleplayer game anyway. The delay factions caused in the SP release is probably no more than a month or two
5) Having followed the beta of Factions (which has been out for backers for quite a while), I can say with confidence that the game as it stands is in a LOT better shape than it used to be. Whether you want multiplayer or not, factions is going to result in you getting a better single-player game.
6) You're either a brilliant troll almondblight, or dumber than dirt. I suspect the latter.

 

[almondblight]

6) You're either a brilliant troll almondblight, or dumber than dirt. I suspect the latter.

Of course. Me and everyone else. I can find a lot of discussions about Banner Saga being F2P from after they, you know, announced it as being F2P. During the campaign? The most I can find is maybe a couple of references on some forums. Yeah I know, it's easy to make things up, but if you want people to believe you, put your money where your mouth is. If F2P was so obvious, and people that didn't realize it'd be F2P are dumb, show me the discussions about it during the Kickstarter. Because I can show you a lot of people talking about it later.

But hey, don't take it from me - take it from these dumb people: "We mentioned a free multiplayer standalone at the end of our Kickstarter pitch video. At the time it was more of a side note, and not what we wanted to focus on." Though I guess according to the fanboys, the developers are idiot savants. They messed up with the schedule for the single-player campaign so that it ended up taking twice as long as planned. But turning the combat into a F2P game only takes them "a month or two."

In fact, Conquistador seems to be the only one of the recent kickstarter games that will release on schedule.

Yeah, but Conquistador is going to suck without the "necessary prerequisite" of a separate F2P game. You know, the one that the backers are going to demand.