Overpowered Stuff in NWN/NWN2

[Nickless]

The damage a warlock dishes out a round is piss-poor compared to a fighter or rogue at almost any level

I don't remember any fighter or rogue build that could dish out over 20d6 damage in an area of effect. And that's not even a well optimized Warlock.

A level 20 warlock's eldritch blast is 9d6 (Average 31.5), disregarding invocations. It's pathetic. While they can't get an AoE, a well optimised fighter or rogue of equal level can dish out damage far more heavily than a pitiful average of 70 a round (Which warlocks can't reach until well into the epic levels). A level 20 fighter with 20 strength a greatsword + weapon specialisation at power attack 5 has 5 attacks each doing on average 21 a hit, ignoring other bonuses like magic weaponry, haste, strength enhancing equipment or any other easily accessible, extremely powerful loot at that level, then factor in stuff like great cleave and you've a walking machine of death. AoEs suck in realtime games like NWN anyway, since by the time you're done casting at an enemy they're near enough to you for you to be affected.

Their only advantage never comes into play in NWN2, that being the ability to cast spells indefinitely without resting (Although MotB did mitigate this slightly).

That advantage turns a full-craving run into a cakewalk without ANY kind of abuse of the system, something no other spellcasting class can claim. And you forgot the important aspect of the advantage: it's not so much about not needing to rest, but about NEVER running out in mid-combat. I'd say it's pretty big, especially in places like the final dungeon.

Never running out of crap damaging area of effect spell-like abilities in the middle of combat whilst other classes are busy being better than you at almost everything, pulling your weak ass through the fight. Bleh.

Lack of spell selection forces them to specialise for one specific encounter type/enemy at low to medium levels which can make them pathetically weak against certain enemies

If we're still talking about the NWN's, that's never a problem because they're never pathetically weak againt anyone. Wizards, OTOH, are completely screwed at low levels because their pathetically low number of slots means they either memorize one offensive spell and one buff, or one of each, and in all 3 cases they'll run into trouble very quickly. Even at high level the need to constantly sacrifice those precious slots on spells just in case you end up needing them is painful. This should technically be offset by the small spell selection Sorcerers get, but frankly I always end up picking spells that I never use with a Sorcerer because there are so few that are any good at each level.

Almost all low level spellcasters, sorcerer or wizard are screwed at low levels if they're the main damage dealer, it doesn't matter that a sorcerer gets a few, lower level spells. Also, in regards to quantity of spells...

A specialist wizard at fifth level has 4 1st level, 3 2nd level, 2 3rd level

Sorcerer has 6 1st level, 4 2nd level

So a sorcerer can cast 1 more spell than a wizard at this level, and none higher than 2nd level. Factor in a wizard's versatility (A few spell slots for buffs, the rest for damage, spontaneous casting is something you rarely need. Sorcerer only has two spells he can cast of second level, to boot)

Sorcerers are behind wizards in spell-progression

They're one level behind. One. Never been a problem for me, and more than offset by being able to cast spells more frequently. Not to mention that when they DO catch up to Wizards (level 18) they lose their one disadvantage and retain all advantages.

It's an extreme problem when you're facing an intelligent spellcaster. For instance, sorcerer vs. wizard, both at 7th level. A wizard who casts minor globe of invulnerability is untouchable. Higher level spells almost always trump lower level ones, unless the sorcerer is very creative.

Wizard also needs like 11 rounds to buff while the fighter is pounding at him.

Prebuffing. You need ONE spell as a prebuff (Premonition) to buy you those 10 rounds. And on the 11th round you recast Premonition and suddenly you're suddenly immune to ALL forms of damage AND can kill the fighter with one spell AND can even just hit him in melee, as you've now got just as many hit points and probably do more melee damage. Or you could use half these 10 rounds to cast 5 meteor showers, there won't be much of a fighter left.

Depends what game we're talking about to a certain extent. NWN2, a fighter of that level should be using an admantine weapon, which will ignore that entirely. In NWN, at those high levels, they should also have a weapon capable of piercing that, or at the very least, one doing elemental damage. Knockdown spam should work still anyway, it's pretty much instant death for a caster if you use it right. You're not able to cast spells if you can't stand up. It all comes down to the seconds when it comes to arcane spellcaster vs. anything else

 

[Daemongar]

Clerics though... Clerics are just OP.

I'd always take 3 levels of ranger(?), for all the feats and free dual weilding, then switch to cleric for almost permanent bull strength/foxes grace/etc, +enchanted weapon, +fiery weapon, +everything else clerics get.

Of course, I've played a cleric since 1st edition, so I think I know what I'm doing

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

You could make an argument that every class cept Bards and Rogues are OP in NWN which is a good indication that the game is relatively balanced. I only see fighter molds as being OP. There are just too many ways to boost their AC while spellcasters lack some of their signature trump spells. There is no dem-doors, no flight, no contingencies. In Baldur's Gate 2 an archmage is the baddest son of bitch. I like it that way.

Between Jerro and the Warlock I used in SoZ the class seems pretty balanced to me. They are very useful against bosses or any other warded enemy.

 

[Konjad]

All sSingleclasses are pretty equal, multiclassing is where the unbalancing comes.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Nickless is wrong. In NWN2 Sorc > Wizard. Also who picks Premonition anway? What a shitty spell. Why picking pitiful damage reduction when Ethereal Jaunt is much better, and no one can hit you anyway? A good sorcerer build can reach 80 AC with Divine Shield (in MotB). Plus Improved Invis. Plus Mirror Image. Who's going to hit that? Plus more spell mantles a wizard could ever hope to breach. Unless you fill your whole spellbook with breaches, have fun trying to win a fight then. The whole versality matter is hardly noticable, you can pick what you need to win against anything. So this, *you're useless against certain types of enemies* is nonsense. The only problematic spell level is 6 because there's so much good stuff there and you can only have 3.

Also, someone said earlier Mage armor is owerpowered. Please. How is that overpowered? First, it doesn't stack with anything, it doesn't stack at all. It works wrongly giving an armor enhancement bonus instead of an armor bonus, true (that means if you cast it on someone with say a leather armor, the armor now behaves like an leather armor +4) but the spell will become obsolete as you get better equipment anyway. Because it doesn't stack.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

First, it doesn't stack with anything, it doesn't stack at all. [...] Because it doesn't stack.

More or less.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Mage_armor

Description: The selected target gains the following bonuses to his AC: +1 natural armor, +1 dodge, +1 deflection, and +1 enhancement. The dodge bonus stacks with other dodge bonuses to AC, but the other bonuses do not stack with bonuses of the same type.

As a character acquires enchanted equipment, the effectiveness of this spell goes down, due to the non-stacking bonuses. At higher levels, typically only the dodge bonus has an effect, and even that is wasted if the +20 dodge bonus cap has been reached.

----

Are you gusy fuckin' retarted?

Volourn: "Gives exmaple of some over powered stuff in NWN but also points stuff that aren't overpowered."

Codex: "Volourn says NWN isn't overpowered"

Logical Common Sense: "Codex is being drunk again."

I fucking love Volourn

 

[Black]

Volly once again proves that logic is overpowered.

And underpowered at the same time!

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Plus more spell mantles a wizard could ever hope to breach. Unless you fill your whole spellbook with breaches, have fun trying to win a fight then.

Quickened breach + Bigby 6/7/9 same round?

Sorcerers can do that too, so it's irrelevant in Wizard vs Sorcerers discussion.

CK: I was referring to NWN2 Mage armor.

 

[Hegel]

Currently replaying ToEE with CO8 6.0 NC.
I have to say this: it's fucking awesome.
The combat is just orgasmic, and the mods are a well balanced challenge. My current party:
Elven Bard 4/Rogue 2 (party spokeswoman and item crafter) specialized in enchantment, party buffs/crowd control, get two weapon fighting and backup the barbarian in melee. The rogue levels are for skill points and sneak. Backstab+sneak attack+dual wielding= 1 killed foe per round.

Human Fighter 2/Barbarian 4 (hit barbarian rage, have a sorcerer enlarge him and a cleric buff) uses a +2 spiked chain
Greater Cleave+ Improved trip, this guy has 2, sometimes 3/4 actions per round, mauling from a distance thanks to the huge chain aoe.

Sorcerer 6 (aoe blasting is fun, web and grease are nice when paired up with the bard's sleep and some steamy fireball). Ray of enfeeblement is a must have against giant sized monsters.

Dwarven Cleric 6. ToEE is one game where having healers means something. Prayer+self buffs, ever seen a giant sized dwarf with 24 strength? This guy rocks, plus he has 2 backup summons if things go awry.

Human Druid 6. This gal sucks, probably the weakest party member, but
she has some nice summons and heals. It was a forced decision to pick her up, I needed a shapeshifter to kill the fiendish minotaur in the orcs camp, use enlarge human on her, buff up and shapeshift into a grizzly bear. Enjoy mauling stuff for 60+crits .


End of the OT.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Druids rock in ToEE.
1) you can summon a jackal companion which is a great help especially on lower levels
2) Bark Skin
3) Spell Focus Conjuration + the improved summoning feat (forgot the name)

also worth mentioning: Produce fire, Entangle, Flamestrike

 

[Damned Registrations]

Apparently quickened spells are actually gimped in NWN2 anyways, they just cast a few seconds faster instead of instantly like they should. Makes sorcerors a bit better, since normally they can't even use quickened spells, metamagic taking them a full round action to begin with.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Druids rock in ToEE.

Agreed. Always thought druid was a shit class until that game. On top of what VoD said ("bark skin" is the shit), spells like "call lightning" or "call lightning storm" last for many rounds and can be cast indoors. My druid really kicked ass with those in my last playthrough.

 

[Shannow]

Wizard also needs like 11 rounds to buff while the fighter is pounding at him.

Prebuffing. You need ONE spell as a prebuff (Premonition) to buy you those 10 rounds. And on the 11th round you recast Premonition and suddenly you're suddenly immune to ALL forms of damage AND can kill the fighter with one spell AND can even just hit him in melee, as you've now got just as many hit points and probably do more melee damage. Or you could use half these 10 rounds to cast 5 meteor showers, there won't be much of a fighter left.

Clerics though... Clerics are just OP.

Yes they definitely are.

Codex finally lets me answer: I always wondered why people consider casters as so OP in the NWNs. In PnP there's no question that they can abuse some stuff that makes them so, but NWNs?
As mentioned before Premonition means shit if the meleer is using an adamantine weapon. Even if he isn't, physical damage'd still leak through and my last build would burn through Premonition (250 points of absorption max, IIRC) 3-4 rounds although he wasn't built for damage but for resilience. And what is this one spell to kill them all? Any fighter with half a brain would use imunity to death magic in the least. Hitting him in melee? I never could make Tenser's Transformation work well in NWN2. An average fighter type would still kick the caster's arse. Do more dmg in melee? I'd like to see those stats. More hitpoints? My last build had something around 430 hp and he wasn't built for as high as possible hp (and I might misremember and he was only lvl 27 at that point), can a wizard top that? Meteor Showers, don't they friendly fire? (They should at least^^) 5 Meteor Showers vs. Evasion+no fail on rolling a 1+6 additional saving throws against spells through spellcraft (I said Able Learner was OP )+12hp regeneration per round+over 400hp(+5 poitions of heal)+at least 30 points of absorption vs fire+SR of 30(not that that is really useful at that lvl but it gives some chances) ?
This isn't so much a challenge as a question. I tried a Pale Master melee build once and it sucked. I suppose I suck at building casters. So this is more a question of what buffs and spells to use. VoD mentioned AC of 80 being possible, that'd stop at least my melee builds. How long would the high AC last and what would one throw against the meleer while one was nigh invulnerable?

And if anyone is interested, my optimised but not powergaming build looks like this:
2(3) rogue, 1 cleric, 10 dwarven defender, 17(16) fighter
Starting stats:
16 (every upgrade goes into strength)
14
16
14
10 (or was it 12??)
6

30 tumble
30 (35? don't remember) spellcraft
30 Use Magical Device
rest dialogue skills

cleric gives slippery mind and aura of good. In addition to iron will, resilience, dwarven resistance and the bonus through spellcraft mind affecting stuff should have a hard time coming through even without imunity items.
Stats near level 30 with NWN2MotB items should be around
34
16
27
14
12
6

And that's one of the reasons I don't see clerics as being so OP: they need wis and can't minmax so much for str and con. Due to lower BAB they also have less attacks per round. Lack of weapon specialisation and BAB is not really mitigated by buffs. And they always have to fear a high level caster stripping all their buffs from them.

But basically I just prefer easy, self-sufficient builds over OP ones.

 

[Malakal]

In my MoTB walkthrough I was using a metamagic specialist caster and just used all my slots with maximized, empowered, heightened etc Isaacs Greater Missile Storms. Was enough for anything.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

VoD mentioned AC of 80 being possible, that'd stop at least my melee builds. How long would the high AC last and what would one throw against the meleer while one was nigh invulnerable?

Assuming 40 CHa (for a modifier of 15) one can maintain it for 15x15=225 rounds. Then the AC will drop into the 60ies if you no longer have divine shields ready. But you'll still have 50% concealment and Mirror Images to absorb attacks. Or ethereal jaunt to remove yourself from the fight if need be.

If you play with immunity items (MotB has lots of such items, making you immune to Necromancy, Illusion, Transmutation, heck even Evocation and more I presume) then yes, it becomes difficult for the caster. Because if you're immune then there's not much he can do. But that's silly.

Without immunity to death effects your life expectancy is quite short, Avasculate, Avasculate, PW Kill, goodbye.
Otherwise there's still Bigbys ForceFul Hand. Or Shadow Simulacrum creates a copy of your character (at 2/3 HP) so you'd have to fight yourself, Bigbys Interposing Hand can shift the tide in favor of the Simulacrum. Or good old IGMS spam.

and you're right the spells that make casters (especially wizards) OP in PnP don't even exist in NWNs (rope trick?, fly?, planeshift?, celerity?) .

Due to lower BAB they also have less attacks per round. Lack of weapon specialisation and BAB is not really mitigated by buffs. And they always have to fear a high level caster stripping all their buffs from them.

No fighter will ever pull the same BAB as a cleric. Fact. Divine Power = having BAB and attacks as fighter of same level, then on top of it: Divine Favor, Aid, Prayer, Battletide, Righteous Might, Recitation etc

As for stripping buffs 1) does it even work? I thought as soon as you hit lvl 25 you become immune to dispelling save for Disjunction which for some lame reason can't be targeted at single target so you have to use the weak AoE version. Sure Your spell mantle might be stripped off by a breach and 2 or 3 buffs with it, but 2) you can always use etherealness/ethereal jaunt and have all time you'll need to rebuff and 3) who is going to strip the cleric of her buffs? Your fighter?

I never recognized fighters as a serious threat, clerics otoh especially Favored Souls are very dangerous.

 

[Xor]

See, this is why I never play NWN and NWN2 online.

 

[Volourn]

TOEE had a great combat system but horrible combat.

Playing online NWN is obviously gonna be hit and miss since every PW is gonna handle ph@t lewt differently plus some completely change how spells work as well so bragging about being able to get to x level of awesome sauce is not impressive.

*shrug*

 

[Grunker]

As for the stuff VoD talks about, it is a well-known fact that Fighters (except level 1-3 for free feat in complement with other classes) are completely useless in D&D. More so than other non-casters (barbarians, rangers, etc.), which are also uselss on anything above level 7.

Wizards even published a new supplement - Tome of Battle, The Book of Nine Swords - to remedy this fact. And it worked. I heartily recommend the book to anyone who plays D&D on level 7 or above and who would actually like fighter-style characters in their game.

"Mage Armor on tanks was almost cheat worthy."

Do you mean the epic version or the level 1 spell? I hope you mean the epic version 'cause the amrge armour level 1 spell is uselss.

The damage reducing belts in the NWN OC were definitely over powered. Most of the spells listed here aren't. Evard's Black tentatcles is not overpowered.

It gives a +4 to AC and stacks with anything. Khelgar already had high armor. With Mage Armor he was damn near untouchable. Same could be said for Okku but Okku has so much hp he was near invincible anyway.

If it stacks, it's a bug. Mage Armor is supposed to give an "Armor" bonus, which doesn't stack with other Armor-bonuses, thus rendering it useless on tanks. It is, as such, useless, since if your Mage is getting hit, you're doing something wrong.

 

[Volourn]

Only the dodge bonus stacks.

 

[Grunker]

Only the dodge bonus stacks.

The dodge bonus as well as unnamed bonuses stack . Dunno if there are any unnamed bonuses in NWN though.

 

[Sceptic]

As mentioned before Premonition means shit if the meleer is using an adamantine weapon.

True, and I admit I didn't think of this when I brought it up. It does however bring up a small but important tangent that always gets overlooked whenever fighter vs caster arguments come up: all arguments in favor of the fighter eventually boil down to "give him this item and the Sorc is ruined". Of course if you pimp your caster with all-ultimate items...

Meteor Showers, don't they friendly fire? (They should at least^^)

Against Sorc's helpers, yes. Against Sorc himself, centered-on-caster mode doesn't for obvious reason, not sure if the others hit the Sorc himself. (and yeah they should, they probably do in P&P too)

In any case your build is certainly a very interesting one, and if there's a Sorc-killer then this is it. I hadn't really thought of Able Learner to complement it so nicely, I had forgotten that feats is so insanely OP.

But basically I just prefer easy, self-sufficient builds over OP ones.

My Sorcerer ideas are far from OP builds, as I just build a fun to play spellcaster. They usually end up being quite good at destroying worlds and walls (to paraphrase VD) but they're far from ultimate, just a lot of fun for me. Fighter builds bore the hell out of me in Aurora games thanks to the slooooooooooooow speed of combat.

 

[Ebonsword]

You assert that NWN isn't overpowered and isn't Monty Haul in its nature. The list speaks for itself; Gygax was rolling in his grave when the NWN series came out since it rapes the hell out of his original vision, in many ways. It got worse in that fashion as it continued on to the point where you're finding +5 swords and thousands of gold pieces sitting around in barrels.

To be fair, the Monty Haul-ism and munchkinism endemic to the NWN series sort of stems from 3.0/3.5 ed D&D itself.

Stuff was way tougher in 1st Edition where poison killed you instantly, level drains couldn't be healed (well, short of a wish, anyway), and *any* damage would disrupt a spell-caster's casting.

 

[King Crispy]

TOEE had a great combat system but horrible combat.

I think I just blew a few circuits there.

 

[Grunker]

You assert that NWN isn't overpowered and isn't Monty Haul in its nature. The list speaks for itself; Gygax was rolling in his grave when the NWN series came out since it rapes the hell out of his original vision, in many ways. It got worse in that fashion as it continued on to the point where you're finding +5 swords and thousands of gold pieces sitting around in barrels.

To be fair, the Monty Haul-ism and munchkinism endemic to the NWN series sort of stems from 3.0/3.5 ed D&D itself.

Stuff was way tougher in 1st Edition where poison killed you instantly, level drains couldn't be healed (well, short of a wish, anyway), and *any* damage would disrupt a spell-caster's casting.

"Tough" is defined as "amount of challenge", I presume, and you have just as many if not more way of making things challenging in 3.5 as in 1st.

I have played all editions extensively, and whether you like extremely challeging dungeon-crawls or more narrative roleplaying, 3.5 is far superior in design.

In short; just because defunct and modern GMs and computer games give the impression that 3.5 is a Monty Haul-universe/munchkin's paradise, that doesn't make it a universal truth. Instead, it just means the modern trend is to use D&D for this purpose - and this, I agree, is a shame.

I might agree with you in terms of 4th edition, in which it is actually difficult to make tough and meaningful challenges compared to the three other iterations of D&D. But this is far from the case in 3.5.

It is the most modular and functional iteration of the D&D IP.

 

[Hegel]

TOEE had a great combat system but horrible combat.

I think I just blew a few circuits there.

ME2 is a better game than BGII but a far worse RPG.
The total is better than the sum of its own parts.
Volourn is a better poster than anybody else but his posts are worse than Prosper's.


ToEE has some great combat, especially the modded parts. Just got druid's lighting spells, I change my opinion, killing stuff with ranged magic while shapeshifted into a wolf? Awesome.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

TOEE had a great combat system but horrible combat.

I think I just blew a few circuits there.

I can only guess that he meant the system is great in theory, but the encounter design, difficulty, etc. is shitty, which makes the game's combat suck