From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Jezal_k23]

DS3 has some extremely solid bosses but also some that are total shit. So I disagree with it having the best bosses overall.

 

[Cryomancer]

If i could ask one question to DS devs, i would ask.

Who had the genial idea of making Painted world optional but Lost Izalith mantadory??

 

[cvv]

If i could ask one question to DS devs, i would ask.

Who had the genial idea of making Painted world optional but Lost Izalith mantadory??

Spoiler

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Who had the genial idea of making Painted world optional but Lost Izalith mantadory??

In its defense, Lost Izalith contains the best monster in any of the Souls games:

Spoiler

Chaos Eater

 

[Cryomancer]

In its defense, Lost Izalith contains the best monster in any of the Souls games:

Put this monster on Painted World. Lost Izalith/Bed of Chaos is the main reason that i don't have much desire to replay DS1(but replayed DS2 countless of times)

 

[Black Angel]

The only reason one would ever replay DS1 is to experience the absolute masterpiece that is pre-Lordvessel areas, and that in and of itself is more than good enough reason. Hell, I'd say Tomb of the Giants with some light source isn't too bad and the Duke's Archives is actually just as good as any pre-Lordvessel areas (with the exception of having to die to Seath on first encounter, which is bullshit).

Lost Izalith is relatively short and together with its bullshit bosses can be rushed through, while Bed of Chaos I just use quit game exploit after destroying each of her limbs to reset my position and rush to the fucking bug.

 

[praetor]

The only reason one would ever replay DS1 is to experience the absolute masterpiece that is pre-Lordvessel areas, and that in and of itself is more than good enough reason. Hell, I'd say Tomb of the Giants with some light source isn't too bad and the Duke's Archives is actually just as good as any pre-Lordvessel areas (with the exception of having to die to Seath on first encounter, which is bullshit).

Depending how you define "preLordvessel", i think New Londo is good as well.

and another reason to replay DS1 is to get the different story path (i.e. unlock Kaathe) and try a couple different builds (though it's nowhere near as interesting as DS2 in that regard it still has some options)

 

[Black Angel]

Depending how you define "preLordvessel", i think New Londo is good as well.

Right, even New Londo is cool even though the ghosts might rub some people the wrong way.

 

[Cryomancer]

I love Dks 2 but one thing makes no sense.

Hexes and Pyromancies. If you build a hexer, he will inevitable become good at pyromancies too and thats makes no sense. I mean, the "age of fire" and "age of darkness", the undead and demons... Darkness was not supposed to be a opposite of fire? IMO should be Dark Sorceries and Dark Mircles. One scaling with INT MINUS FHT and another with FHT MINUS INT. And pyro with the actual hex scaling, that way, a dark magician will be awful at pyromancy and will make more sense.

 

[RoSoDude]

I think Pyromancy should have remained as the statless magic type (aside from Attunement, obviously). Having two INT+FAITH magic types, even if Hexes work a little distinctly, feels redundant to me.

 

[Strange Fellow]

I think pyromancy was changed mainly in an effort to appease the muh cheese crowd, as it is "overpowered" in the sense that you can max it out without making permanent stat investments. I'm with you, though. I liked that it was different, and it fit thematically as well.

 

[countrydoctor]

Pyromancy in DS1 required like 50 levels worth of investment to max the pyro glove. It didn't matter for online interactions but it sure as hell mattered for pve runs unless you're doing an SL1 run or just love farming phalanx in painted world. For the same investment as ascended pyro glove you could run around with 520 AR MSGS and some good health and endurance.
DS2 pyromancy actually scales pretty badly from what i remember. Now DS3 pyromancy was overbuffed into oblivion in exchange for heavy stat investment needed to max it out and only became better with DLC and two new pyro gloves.

 

[Cryomancer]

I don't think that pyromancy flames is exactly a "glove" , IMO is just a magical fire, since weights nothing and don't prevent you from using other gloves. About on DS3, i found pyromancy the unique magical type who is viable for the game. Sorceries are slow as hell in a game where everything is about speed. On DS2, the main advantage of pyro is that your hexer, your sorcerer and your cleric can be good at it...

 

[Average Manatee]

One thing that Pyromancy did in DS1 that I like from a game design perspective is act as a fallback for anyone who majorly fucked up their build (like, 100% resistance level of fucked up). But then DS2/3 both throw so many levels at the player that its impossible to fuck up. Pretty sure the reasoning behind the change was some sort of "muh pvp balance" crap.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Pyromancy in DS1 required like 50 levels worth of investment to max the pyro glove. It didn't matter for online interactions but it sure as hell mattered for pve runs unless you're doing an SL1 run or just love farming phalanx in painted world. For the same investment as ascended pyro glove you could run around with 520 AR MSGS and some good health and endurance.
DS2 pyromancy actually scales pretty badly from what i remember. Now DS3 pyromancy was overbuffed into oblivion in exchange for heavy stat investment needed to max it out and only became better with DLC and two new pyro gloves.

50 levels is nothing though. The cost of getting a a max level pyro glove was like the cost of getting 10 more levels after getting a similar level of power through magic. Which means that you can either have a level 60 wizard with 50 int and 10 vit, or a level 50 pyromancer with a maxed glove and 50 vit, which can just facetank most things outright.

 

[Lutte]

About on DS3, i found pyromancy the unique magical type who is viable for the game. Sorceries are slow as hell in a game where everything is about speed.

It's... usable. But realistically the only use of magic in DS3 is buffing your melee character.
Like you could spend 10 min trying to kill midir with pyromancy spells or you could kill it under in a min or two with a few fast combo of twinblades, your choice.

All the magic schools have viable spells.. it's just that they're buff spells haha. Attack magic is absolutely worthless, pyromancy included.

 

[countrydoctor]

50 levels is nothing though

50 levels are a lot for ng run. It's essentially a playstyle choice territory. Even 10 levels in second half of the game are a lot because your leveling speed slows down to a crawl. I always considered DS1 pyro glove a bit of an NG+ thing, especially since you physically can't amass enough casts to truly wipe whole locations out with pyromancies alone on your first run. And especially because of how slow pyro is unless you go with 45 dex for max casting speed.

All the magic schools have viable spells.. it's just that they're buff spells haha. Attack magic is absolutely worthless, pyromancy included.

But that's absolutely wrong.
DS3 pyromancy is borderline broken. Vestiges and chaos orb completely melt everything not outright fire resistant up to NG+7, a whole damn lot of things are not fire resistant and you can get those spells relatively early just by rushing to the smouldering lake. The few things that are fire resistant typically don't resist dark which is where black flame comes in. Parting Flame is utterly broken, once you kill 12 enemies you have a weapon art that can be abused to restore all your normal estus. If anything it's pyro buffs that suck absolute ass, especially the overnerfed power within.
The only problem with damaging DS3 miracles is that all the good ones are locked behind end game so the cleric caster is only really possible on NG+ and beyond. Once you have lighting arrow, dorhys gnawing and sunlight spear, you have tools for every situation. Buffs only make cleric better, especially dark buffed Crucifix or lightning blade buffed sunlight straight sword.
DS3 sorcerers are the least changed caster class and out of 3 so their gameplay style, while strong, is pretty boring. GHSA is extremely powerful and utterly spammable, Great Soul Dregs are just retarded for a spell that homes in and Pestilent Mist is a true damage aoe spell that can bully even Midir into submission.

 

[Lutte]

But that's absolutely wrong.
DS3 pyromancy is borderline broken..

Melee is what is broken


You haven't used the right buffs and weapons if you think spellcasting is anything comparable. On a normal NG without too many buffs (only casted carthus) I melted almost every single boss with the dual blade build that consists of having one of the fast hitting dual blades (my preference goes for the sellsword tWINblades) + pontiff right eye + carthus beacon + old wolf curved sword on your back and without going hyper mode low HP glass canon.

Pyromancy is the realm of peasantry outside of casting carthus beacon.

Pestilent Mist is a true damage aoe spell that can bully even Midir into submission.

'bully' midir after a long while the melee guy would have already killed it.

 

[Damned Registrations]

50 levels are a lot for ng run. It's essentially a playstyle choice territory. Even 10 levels in second half of the game are a lot because your leveling speed slows down to a crawl. I always considered DS1 pyro glove a bit of an NG+ thing, especially since you physically can't amass enough casts to truly wipe whole locations out with pyromancies alone on your first run. And especially because of how slow pyro is unless you go with 45 dex for max casting speed.

It's not like you're forced to max the glove and buy every spell before putting stats anywhere else. And 45 dex is overrated. Even at base dex you can stunlock most enemies with combustion trivially, and it gives a fuckton of casts. You'll have plenty of magic as long as you don't rely on it completely exclusively. Something as simple as a dagger for backstabbing or an elemental weapon for bashing really easy enemies like rats or whatever will easily make up the difference. The only thing easier than my pyro playthrough would be getting an early black knight halberd. And honestly that's kind of a tossup. Being able to dump a ton of levels into vitality early makes an insane difference.

 

[countrydoctor]

You haven't used the right buffs and weapons if you think spellcasting is anything comparable

Pure spellcasting was hardly comparable in damage department to buffed hypermode weapon abuse all the way since DS2 and only because running firestorm existed in DeS and dark bead existed in DS1, and even then most of the DS1 1HKO challenges were carried out with the buffed DKGA. This doesn't make casting "worthless", or any other setup for that matter, given the fact that you trade all forms of defensive capabilities and ability to kill enemies at range for this. Non-hypermode sellswords need their full paired combo to deal the same damage as chucking ~950 fire damage attack rating Vestiges at everything that moves across the screen.

'bully' midir after a long while the melee guy would have already killed it.

There's a shit ton of melee setups that will take way more time to kill Midir compared to just burning through his HP with the pestilent mist while being able to freely dodge around without being forced to aim for his head. Out of all the ways to kill Midir it's by far one of the most foolproof and one of the easiest to do on low levels.

It's not like you're forced to max the glove and buy every spell before putting stats anywhere else.

By that point you will have far better things to spend your souls on. For vitgouge builds pyromancy is forced to compete with any fire, and later chaos weapons, and those reach Combustion tier damage output without requiring you to dump immense shitload of souls into your glove. For casting at range a level 5 sorcerer with oolacile catalyst can reach the same damage output despite spending only a small fraction of souls (and more importantly, time, since you just need to bomb down the hydra and rescue Dusk which can be done 10 minutes after starting the game) on setting everything up.

 

[Cryomancer]

Like you could spend 10 min trying to kill midir with pyromancy spells or you could kill it under in a min or two with a few fast combo of twinblades, your choice.

You are right. One thing that i hate about DS3 is. Everything is about FAST SWINGING blades. I was seeing top pvp build videos for dks3. All using ... Fast swinging blades. People complain about DS2 having too much "armored guys" BUT lets be real. At least armored guys on DS2 uses tons of different weapons. On DS3, looks like or you fight swordsman or gimmicky bosses.

 

[Lutte]

The decks were far less stacked in DS1. Sure, the absolute one shot builds were mostly melee or fast hitting spam of piercing weapons but magic could do this :


No, you won't kill any of the health equivalent of Manus in DS3 in sub1min with a level 78 caster. And let's not even talk running NG+ with the SHOTGUN.


DS2 had lightning spear spam and massively op dark magic by the midpoint of the game.

Magic was never all that fun in the souls but in DS3 it's just straight out garbo. My sellsword build didn't oneshot bosses in the first NG (I don't grind) but it sure felt close enough compared to when I tried magic.

Trying magic after experiencing good melee leaves an incredibly horrible taste in the mouth and only shit eaters would enjoy the feel.

 

[Cryomancer]

massively op dark magic by the midpoint of the game.

As a magefag, i have to disagree. Hexes on Dks 2 are not OP.

• They require two stat investments and most good haxes has high INT or high FHT requirement
• Most powerful Hexes costs souls and it destroy your soul memory
• Dark Orb has the worst range and projectile speed among basic projectile attacks
• A lot of bosses are dark resistant
• Dark fog produces the same effect of some toxic mist but require twice the ATN slots
• Or you sacrifice damage for a catalyst or you will have to upgrade a staff and a chime

Anyway, what make many consider magic "easy mode" in dark souls was never the damage. Was the RANGE. In a game about hit and avoid being hit, range is a huge advantage. If most spells worked like Combustion/Great Combustion, nobody would ever consider it "OP"... Spitfire Spear is one of the least used spears despite the good damage because has a poor range for a spear.

 

[Lutte]

As a magefag, i have to disagree. Hexes on Dks 2 are not OP.

• They require two stat investments and most good haxes has high INT or high FHT requirement
• Most powerful Hexes costs souls and it destroy your soul memory
• Dark Orb has the worst range and projectile speed among basic projectile attacks
• A lot of bosses are dark resistant
• Dark fog produces the same effect of some toxic mist but require twice the ATN slots
• Or you sacrifice damage for a catalyst or you will have to upgrade a staff and a chime

Anyway, what make many consider magic "easy mode" in dark souls was never the damage. Was the RANGE. In a game about hit and avoid being hit, range is a huge advantage. If most spells worked like Combustion/Great Combustion, nobody would ever consider it "OP"... Spitfire Spear is one of the least used spears despite the good damage because has a poor range for a spear.

• you don't need a whole lot of the other stats when you play a caster anyway. Barely up phys stats on casters
• PVP talk? who gives a shit about soul memory. Not to mention, the spells that don't use souls are fine.
• are you talking about PVP again? It literally doesn't matter in DS2 PVE. I don't talk or do pvp. The whole idea of competitive in a game with P2P connectivity is retarded.
• not too many in the main game, and the DLC made magic shit in general not just dark magic (dlc was clearly designed with the same philosophy as DS3 in making magic feel like you're using a peashooter. It physically hurts me to see the ---impact--- on those bosses.)
• never used the poison stuff. Where's the fun in that shit?
• oh boy, you will have to upgrade two things in the game that was the most liberal in handing out resources. You're not trying to get a pure bladestone in demon's souls.

I didn't mention once a talk about easy mode and most of the talk about dark souls difficulty is inherently retarded. The real easy mode is just making turtles, it's valid in all souls games (well, not bloodborne)




(bonus DS3 video with some iron flesh facetank r1spam/drink estus cycle)


A STR build that can wield a greatshield will arguably be easier to handle for a noob over a caster because you can just press a button and be safe all day. Even a ranged user can occasionally get some enemies that can get them but The Wall takes it all and a fast melee hit will always be less dangerous to get in than being stuck in an animation in the wrong time.

Even DS3 that dramatically nerfed shields still kept greatshields intact in their role as The Wall. They just made it less plausible to be a Wall if you're not built like a Wall ie no more facetanking without investing in STR.

Whether you're seeking hard mode 360 loldodgednaked or yearn for easy mode, face it, melee is superior master race. The mage build is what you do when you're bored and seek novelty before you /uninstall

 

[Cryomancer]

Lutte, you are right. Only a small discordance. IMO range of spells in PvE are useful. i mean, i can't counter greatbow archers with my hex but can with my sorceries. Shrine of Amana is much easier with long range spells.

Also, costing souls when you can easily farm Dragonrider and use items to get souls is not a drawback on PvE. Note how even on DLC's who nerfed spells to oblivion, Hex can deal massive damage