Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Rafidur

Learned
Joined
Sep 12, 2019
Messages
411
Tome4 has necromancers that satisfy all of the OP's requirements aside from NPC interaction.

https://te4.org/wiki/Necromancer

It does have a "conjure shit from nowhere" spell but it is out of the way in an optional tree and just summons bunnies as meatshields you can harvest souls from to fuel your other spells.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,793
Location
Frostfell
It's not necromancy if they're summoned, rather than created from corpses.

What about some games who doesn't require a corpse BUT require reagents, eg, on Project Gorgon? you need a femur to summon a skeleton archer/mage/fighter.

Sure necromancers may do some summoning but that should only apply to incorporeal dead (which may be a very good counter to enemies relying on physical damage).

IMO "conjuring" undead should always be weaker and/or less durable than actually animating the dead
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,152
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
It's not necromancy if they're summoned, rather than created from corpses.

What about some games who doesn't require a corpse BUT require reagents, eg, on Project Gorgon? you need a femur to summon a skeleton archer/mage/fighter.

Eeeh. Maybe if you have to gather a complete skeleton in order to actually fashion it. That would be kinda cool. Collect bone parts from different sources to construct the perfect skellington.

Necromancy = turning the dead into your servants. Using one bone as an ingredient to summon a skeleton sounds more like some form of ritual magic, but not proper necromancy.

Proper necromancy works with entire skeletons or entire bodies, using magic to animate the dead bones and tissue. Or it uses magic to conjure the souls of the dead to do your bidding. Anything that doesn't directly work with the remains of the dead - be they physical remains or spiritual remains (souls, ghosts etc) - isn't full-fledged necromancy.

If you use a femur to summon a skeleton, where does the rest of the skeleton come from? Certainly not from existing bones that are right there.
 

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
16,030
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre
TBH I'm afraid any necromancy which is sufficiently cool stops fitting the CRPG genre (in the mechanicial sense only!) and crosses over to strategy games. Of course this is also true for any other magic - your spells are either parlor tricks to be used in sewers against gelatinous cubes or powerful bursts of magic that decimate regiments on the battlefield.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,152
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Dominions series has the best necromancy, that is true. Closely followed by the HoMM series.

If you can't enslave nations with necromancy, why even necromance?
 
Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
3,535
While reading Hawthorne's The Marble Faun, I came across a reference to a "necromancer", a white-haired old magician who uses his powers to divine the secrets of the distant past. Essentially, he is a device by Hawthorne to suggest a possible truth to a legend older than history might plausibly record.

I was reminded that the term "necromancer" once referred to what might also be called a "spiritualist" -- a diviner who communes with spirits.

In much modern fantasy, a "necromancer" is more likely to be a particularly morbid and ghoulish death-mage, who creates zombies and animates skeletons, and otherwise uses his magic to muck around with corpses.

The earliest stories I can think of that feature this modern type of "necromancer" are the stories of Clark Ashton Smith. And the earliest clear example of this, that I can think of, is "The Empire of the Necromancers", published 1932 - the first Zothique story. And of course there are more "necromancers", of the ghoulish, corpse-mage type, in future CAS stories, particularly those set in Zothique, such as "Necromancy in Naat".

Earlier CAS stories, such as "The Last Incantation" and "The Necromantic Tale", use the word in its more-or-less traditional sense.

The only precedent I can think of for this type of "necromancer" is Joseph Curwen from H.P. Lovecraft's "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward". However, Curwen, though he also mucks around with corpses, is called a "necromancer" for the more-or-less traditional reason that he communes with the dead in order to learn their secrets. Also, "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward" was not published until after Lovecraft's death; I am not clear if Clark Ashton Smith ever got a chance to read it.

Of course, HPL did invent the "Necronomicon", which might have helped influence Smith's ideas of "necromancy".

So, did CAS essentially invent the modern fantasy "necromancer" as a ghoulish, corpse-enchanting death mage? Or are there other precedents that I have overlooked?

Necromancy is a corruption of Nigromancy or "black magic" - it picked up its specific association with reanimation sometime later.

Raising the dead, whether animate or inanimate, has been a literary trope for a while before CAS. Zombies from the Pulps does note "Empire of the Necromancers" as a prominent early tale in the corpse reanimation tradition.

> Necromancy is a corruption of Nigromancy or "black
> magic"

It's the other way around. At least, "nigromancy" from the Old French, originated as a corruption of nekromanteia, whish is from the Greek.

- it picked up its specific association
> with reanimation sometime later.
> Raising the dead, whether animate or inanimate,
> has been a literary trope for a while before CAS.

Sure, but stories about animating the dead don't necessarily associate this with the word "necromancer".

Again, the earliest examples I have so far are: "Empire of the Necromancers" (published 1932); and "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward" (first published in abridged form in 1941, but written 1927).

I was wondering this as well--especially reading about forms of necromancy in the "western" and Mesopotamian/Near East tradition, where the closest thing to the modern fantasy necromancer is the use of a skull to embody the spirit you wish to contact.

Empire of the Necromancers is perhaps my favorite CAS tale, and it marks, as far as I'm aware, a true and full qualitative break with what the necromancer is, by tradition, and what he is believed to do.

Yet another facet of modern fantasy that is wholly indebted to CAS.

The great sorcerer Sauron was also referred to as The Necromancer. Not sure when J. R. R. Tolkien put this down in note, but he began writing The Silmarillion as early as 1914.

> The great sorcerer Sauron was also referred to as
> The Necromancer. Not sure when J. R. R. Tolkien
> put this down in note, but he began writing The
> Silmarillion as early as 1914.

Gandalf refers to "The Necromancer" a/k/a "that black sorcerer" in THE HOBBIT, including (I'm pretty sure) the 1937 version. He dwells in Dol Guldur (the "Hill of [Dark] Sorcery") in Mirkwood. However, we are told very little about him, other than that he is super-powerful and super-scary. So its hard to know what specific definition of "necromancy" Tolkien originally had in mind. "Guldur" apparently translates from Elvish as "dark magic"; and "necromancy" may be meant merely as a rough English translation

Sauron was also "the Necromancer" in certain non-final versions of the Silmarillion, but how early these were, I do not know. In THE LORD OF THE RINGS (1954) Gandalf discusses his discovery that the Necromancer of Dol Gulder is in fact Sauron.

In Robert E. Howard's HOUR OF THE DRAGON (1935-6), necromancy seems essentially synonymous with black magic ... magic taught by devils.

> > The great sorcerer Sauron was also referred to
> as
> > The Necromancer. Not sure when J. R. R. Tolkien
> > put this down in note, but he began writing The
> > Silmarillion as early as 1914.
>
> Gandalf refers to "The Necromancer" a/k/a "that
> black sorcerer" in THE HOBBIT, including (I'm
> pretty sure) the 1937 version. He dwells in Dol
> Guldur (the "Hill of Sorcery") in Mirkwood.
> However, we are told very little about him, other
> than that he is super-powerful and super-scary.
> So its hard to know what specific definition of
> "necromancy" Tolkien originally had in mind.
> "Guldur" apparently translates from Elvish as
> "dark magic"; and "necromancy" may be meant merely
> as a rough English translation
>
> Sauron was also "the Necromancer" in certain
> non-final versions of the Silmarillion, but how
> early these were, I do not know. In THE LORD OF
> THE RINGS (1954) Gandalf discusses his discovery
> that the Necromancer of Dol Gulder is in fact
> Sauron.

Tolkien's earliest use of "Necromancer" in relation to Thû (later renamed Sauron) is in the poem "Lay of Leithian", written in 1925.

Neither CAS nor Tolkien nor any modern writer invented this. Necromancy goes way back to antiquity, ... and probably further. Smith merely picked up from the fantastic and horrible corners of reality.

Primitive sorcery and ritualistic cannibalism (to gain spiritual power from the victims) is widely practiced even today, in western Africa especially, in rituals of the Talmud Kabbalah, and among other primitive races in South America and in the Indonesian archipelago.

Right but ... perhaps my question is a bit too narrow and semantic. "Invent" is too strong a word, perhaps, since what I'm suggesting he may have created was a link between a pre-existing word, and pre-existing concepts, thereby influencing the meaning of the word thereafter.

Yes, ... he has certainly added color to the concept, through his great and unique imagination. And given it more visual detail than any historic text previously might have been able to paint.

> Yes, ... he has certainly added color to the
> concept, through his great and unique imagination.
> And given it more visual detail than any historic
> text previously might have been able to paint.

My idea is more basic than that, and more independent of opinions of the quality of the work.

CAS is, AFAIK, the first fiction writer to draw a clear connection between the word "necromancy" and the concept of re-animating dead bodies.

HPL's "Charles Dexter Ward" does not really count. Joseph Curwen gets called a "necromancer" by the townsfolk for the more-or-less traditional reason that he is believed to talk to ghosts. Also, this text was published later.

Tolkien's "Necromancer" does not seem to count either. He is evidently called a Necromancer because he practices dark magic (the "nigromancer" sense of the word); and perhaps because he commands "hosts / of phantoms and wandering ghosts" in the Lay of Leithian. And again, these texts were published later.

In Haiti, there was a folk-belief that a witch could raise a person's corpse for slave labor as a "zombi". But I doubt that "necromancy" was the local term for it.

Before CAS, the closest thing I've come across, after thinking on it for a while, is the Thessalian witch Erichtho who, among other crazy powers (for instance, it's implied she holds the gods themselves hostage) demands from the underworld a spirit hovering over the mouth of oblivion, then, after treating a body with ointments and potions, forces the spirit into a dead soldier's body, after which he sits up straight and tells Sextus Pompeius that which he wishes to know.

Although this isn't 100% the modern necromancer, it's the closest I've heard of before CAS. Erichtho does say, however, that if she willed it, an army would rise at her command, though she does not exhibit this power.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,793
Location
Frostfell
If you define nec as from the corpses, I cant think of any games using such a cumbersome process. True to source,true, but cumbersome.

Come on. Diablo 2 and M&M VIII doesn't require a "cumbersome process", you just kill shit and cast animate dead on the corpses or revive on corpses...

On Path of Exile, you can even create corpses to cast corpses skills...


But if you can easily create fully obedient minions, what's the point in enslaving nations?

Minions are too ugly to be your concubines.

I mean, technically, historically, it's a form of divination based on contacting the dead. Raising the dead as servants isn't even a properly Western practice.

Historically, pyromancy is also only divination with fire but in fantasy, pyromancers can be someone who can manipulate the fire.
 

ValeVelKal

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
1,605
Ultima 8 had great Necromancy that was totally specific to the other magic. You did not need a corpse, true, but both the questline to become a necromancer and the power and limitation (skeleton that will fight for you... for a time) were top-notch.

Eador has the best necromancy in a TBS, way above HOMM. You actually don't produce troops in your city,, you produce troops on the battlefield and stockpile them. Everyone soon hates your guts, but you don't care as you summon undead as "province protection" so your hapless citizens can't rebel.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,152
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Historically, pyromancy is also only divination with fire but in fantasy, pyromancers can be someone who can manipulate the fire.

Historically, everything that ends with "-mancy" was originally used for divination. But in fantasy RPGs, it would be pretty lame if all your wizard could do was tell the future. Not to mention it would be hard to implement spells that predict the future without spoiling the plot for the player, or when making a game with a non-linear story.

So all my wizard can do is look at the flight of birds and by their patterns predict that a massive battle is going to happen in the near future? Yeah, I could've guessed that myself, I'm playing an RPG after all I'm expecting there to be a big battle at the end. Thanks for nothing, wizard skills, I'm restarting the game as a fighter.
 

V_K

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you
If you can't enslave nations with necromancy, why even necromance?
But if you can easily create fully obedient minions, what's the point in enslaving nations?

Breeding material for more minions. Also, skilled workers, since most undead are only capable of very basic work.
Minions are too ugly to be your concubines.
Either problem can be easily solved by small-scale targeted abductions. No need to bother with large-scale conquests.
But then again, if your undead are so impractical, you should have studied mind control instead anyway.
 

V_K

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you
it would be pretty lame if all your wizard could do was tell the future

I wouldn't mind such a class, to be honest.
Once again, technically, divination is not just about telling the future, but also revealing the past and the concealed or unknown. In a game focused on exploration and investigation, a diviner type class would be invaluable.
But even in combat, some near-future telling, like whether an attack is going to hit or miss or who the enemy will target next, could be a very interesting mechanic. Knights of Legend already did something like that with its Foresight stat.
 

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
16,030
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre
If you can't enslave nations with necromancy, why even necromance?
But if you can easily create fully obedient minions, what's the point in enslaving nations?

Breeding material for more minions. Also, skilled workers, since most undead are only capable of very basic work.
Minions are too ugly to be your concubines.
Either problem can be easily solved by small-scale targeted abductions. No need to bother with large-scale conquests.
But then again, if your undead are so impractical, you should have studied mind control instead anyway.

For the concubines, perhaps. But not if you want to rule a massive empire.
 

V_K

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you
But not if you want to rule a massive empire.
Mind control works great for ruling a massive empire. First, you just need to dominate a ruler of some reasonably powerful country to hand you the crown. And then you just dominate the heads of the noble houses, and let them use their resources to do the work for you. As an added bonus, you know for sure that none of high courtiers are conspiring against you because they're all completely under your command.
But then again, building and ruling an empire just seems like too much hassle, when you can just charm whomever to get whatever you want from them. It would actually be quite interesting to have a fantasy villain who's not bent on world domination or destruction, but is just a vastly powerful hedonist.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,793
Location
Frostfell
In a world where people has access to abilities to mind controll, high nobility OBVIOUSLY will have hired magicians to protect then for it, Mind control will only be OP in a world where only you can use it... On a D&D campaign, i tried to use dominate person to make me noble and ended with bounty hunters specialized on sorcerer hunting trying to hunt my party...

The same can be said to necromancy. You will not be the unique necromancer and clerics will be able to banish evil. On Gothic 1, Death to Undead(circle 4) was a OHK spell vs any undead.
 

V_K

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you
In a world where people has access to abilities to mind controll, high nobility OBVIOUSLY will have hired magicians to protect then for it
This is a very questionable logic. What exactly can high nobility offer to the magicians that the magicians can't make or take for themselves, if they are powerful enough? And if they are weak, what use is their magic anyway. I mean, in principle, if on any given world, magic is powerful - then there's no chance that world isn't already ruled by mages, whether secretly or overtly. And if magic is weak, or protection from magic is readily available - then it's largely worthless, or at least not nearly enough for any kind of conquest.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,357
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Dominions series has the best necromancy, that is true. Closely followed by the HoMM series.

If you can't enslave nations with necromancy, why even necromance?
Indeed, turning peasants of conquered regions into a mindless army of undead was really cool.
Necromancy requires some stronghold to conduct experiments and store undead pieces (or vampires!).
Pathfinder:Kingmaker is a missed opportunity in this regard.

In a world where people has access to abilities to mind controll, high nobility OBVIOUSLY will have hired magicians to protect then for it, Mind control will only be OP in a world where only you can use it... On a D&D campaign, i tried to use dominate person to make me noble and ended with bounty hunters specialized on sorcerer hunting trying to hunt my party...

The same can be said to necromancy. You will not be the unique necromancer and clerics will be able to banish evil. On Gothic 1, Death to Undead(circle 4) was a OHK spell vs any undead.

Actually, nobility had power because it was the warrior class. A world with magic and mind control would make the warrior class much weaker.
 

Inehresa

Educated
Patron
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
38
Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Haven't seen it being mentioned yet so here it comes - Cultist Simulator. Yeah I know that writing does not suit everybody and well without automatic repeat mods it's quite tedious however it's probably the only arguably fresh title which not only implements "black magic" concepts (with lore gathering that is actually useful and sometimes necessary to progress) but has separate aspect of magic related to death and passing with raising dead rituals that require proper instruments or ingredients, invocations and actual bodies, which are procured via murder, so it allows for a cool powertrips (once I've kidnapped a detective that was investigating my cult, I've sent a wraith that manifests itself through mirrors and frostbites after him, it has killed the poor guy in gruesome manner, dragged the corpse to my HQ where I proceeded to raise it, only to have it be a part of some tomb expedition where it has found a final resting place among the remains of less prepared expeditionary teams, and thus not only I have got rid of some nosy fucker, but managed to loot artifacts from the site and got rid of evidence, because well - who's gonna suspect that officer McDoe's desecrated corpse is lying in some godforsaken occult mass grave). To top that Ghoul DLC is obviously death-themed - it sets you up as a semi-quack medium which starts on devouring memories to gain access to eerie knowledge and eventually ends up eating dead to survive.

Also at some point you'll be sacrificing wagons upon wagons of people (all sorts of them - investigators, competitors, randos off the street, followers etc) to the powers that be. Seriously, play it.

Also game is autistic enough to consider mutilation as a legit way of gaining magical power.
A Consent of Wounds: "To open certain Ways, one must first open oneself. This practice outlines that opening, in the name of the Mother of Ants
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom