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Company News BioWare is still alive

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
Incidentally Roguey, a fair portion of the hatred of Hepler came from her promoting a complete 'whore/virgin dichotomy' with regard to the DA2 companions in a manner that was more poor fan-fiction than professional writer (i.e. the 'we've got a sex-obsessed massive-chested girl and a faux-virginial girl, so we've got them all covered covered'). Even putting aside that it's one hell of a sexist depiction for a person whose likes to pretend to be a feminist, it beggars belief that anyone could work as a professional writer while being so utterly unaware of such a fundamental creative failure. Whore/virgin dichotomies are the kind of thing you might forgive from a writer who has started out as an amateur hobbyist and gained a following - but for someone who took the route of studing writing at university (Hepler did creative writing or similar), it's an incredible failure. The reason why you hire professional writers is because you expect them to be aware of well-known literary flaws and tropes, so they can either avoid or subvert them. Either she's a complete failure of a writer, or worse, she knew that she was writing one-dimensional characters on the virgin/whore template and did so deliberately to pander to the bioware fanbase.

Add that to her declared lack of interest in gaming, and the poor work of the DA2 writing team in general (Did nobody stop to think that having a character talk about sex all the time just makes her seem like a naive school-kid trying to talk herself up (instead of the sexually confident woman that they were trying to write)?b I keep harping about the romance dialogue, but that's just because it shows how their failure was structural, rather than just a poor once-off result: so much of the embarassingly shite dialogue comes from trying to shoe-horn romances in from all characters to all possible PCs with no thought for thematic consistency or organic character growth - it's porn-level 'I'm here to clean the pool' dialogue, because like porn and fanfiction there's not even the most basic attempt to match the sex with the context of the story/character). It isn't a big leap from there to connect the two and conclude that she's working in games because that kind of writing doesn't get you work outside the pulp franchise 'novel' industry?

Please stop this absurd misogyny-internalizing shit.
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
Patron
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
18,330
Location
Jersey for now
Stop whining brother none.
All Azrael is saying that whatever the Bio fags intend, the opposite happens.
Shows how even the women writers can't write women.
What does this say about her?
 

GarfunkeL

Racism Expert
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
15,463
Location
Insert clever insult here
You failed your sarcasm detection roll, Blackhart. Azrael was basically saying the same thing that BN had tried to convey earlier, albeit with many more words. Roguey dismissed it earlier as misogyny-internalizing shit, so...
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
Patron
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
18,330
Location
Jersey for now
Meh, I didn't read the original post, all I read was
"a fair portion of the hatred of Hepler came from her promoting a complete 'whore/virgin dichotomy' with regard to the DA2 companions in a manner that was more poor fan-fiction than professional writer (i.e. the 'we've got a sex-obsessed massive-chested girl and a faux-virginial girl, so we've got them all covered covered'). Even putting aside that it's one hell of a sexist depiction for a person whose likes to pretend to be a feminist, it beggars belief that anyone could work as a professional writer while being so utterly unaware of such a fundamental creative failure."

Basically, shit is shit.
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
997
Location
Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
Followed shortly after by

and more babes
Babes: Think babes. Then think more babes.
Annah's description also seems custom made to annoy feminists.

Annah’s a smoldering young tiefling that speaks with an Irish accent. She’s brash, insulting and inexpressibly attracted to the player character.
A tiefling raised on Sigil‟s streets, Annah‟s a lot like one would expect from a Hive orphan. Streetwise, and not terribly patient where most matters are concerned, Annah has difficulties in affairs of the heart. Feelings beyond simple hostility make her terribly confused, hesitant and frustrated.

Only your penis can heal her pain, The Male One.

So Annah and Morrigan are basically the same character. "Oh, I was raised in the woods by a witch so I'm super hot and also super socially awkward. That's why I'm snarky; to hide the pain. You're the first person to have four conversations in a row with me. STICK IT IN!"

Nobody has any problem with TNO fighting almost naked, obviously for the female gaze./

He's also a repulsive blue-gray corpse covered in scars. So you know, acquired taste.
 

kris

Arcane
Joined
Oct 27, 2004
Messages
8,844
Location
Lulea, Sweden
Morrigan for me but tastes do differ, besides its the voice actore that did it for me.

Claudia black :), ever watched Farscape? That could have done it for me. But Morrigan was a bit unevenly written, but still better than Leliana. Both were like paradoxes in personality and behaviour.
 

Surf Solar

cannot into womynz
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
8,831
kris said:
Both were like paradoxes in personality and behaviour.

I dont know, that seems kinda realistic and fitting to some women I know. :M
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
Incidentally Roguey, a fair portion of the hatred of Hepler came from her promoting a complete 'whore/virgin dichotomy' with regard to the DA2 companions in a manner that was more poor fan-fiction than professional writer (i.e. the 'we've got a sex-obsessed massive-chested girl and a faux-virginial girl, so we've got them all covered covered'). Even putting aside that it's one hell of a sexist depiction for a person whose likes to pretend to be a feminist, it beggars belief that anyone could work as a professional writer while being so utterly unaware of such a fundamental creative failure. Whore/virgin dichotomies are the kind of thing you might forgive from a writer who has started out as an amateur hobbyist and gained a following - but for someone who took the route of studing writing at university (Hepler did creative writing or similar), it's an incredible failure. The reason why you hire professional writers is because you expect them to be aware of well-known literary flaws and tropes, so they can either avoid or subvert them. Either she's a complete failure of a writer, or worse, she knew that she was writing one-dimensional characters on the virgin/whore template and did so deliberately to pander to the bioware fanbase.

Add that to her declared lack of interest in gaming, and the poor work of the DA2 writing team in general (Did nobody stop to think that having a character talk about sex all the time just makes her seem like a naive school-kid trying to talk herself up (instead of the sexually confident woman that they were trying to write)?b I keep harping about the romance dialogue, but that's just because it shows how their failure was structural, rather than just a poor once-off result: so much of the embarassingly shite dialogue comes from trying to shoe-horn romances in from all characters to all possible PCs with no thought for thematic consistency or organic character growth - it's porn-level 'I'm here to clean the pool' dialogue, because like porn and fanfiction there's not even the most basic attempt to match the sex with the context of the story/character). It isn't a big leap from there to connect the two and conclude that she's working in games because that kind of writing doesn't get you work outside the pulp franchise 'novel' industry?

Please stop this absurd misogyny-internalizing shit.


You can call it misogyny-internalising all you like, but it's still shit writing. Any writing that uses one-dimensional dichotomies as the basis for characterisation, without the slightest awareness of that one-dimensionality (DA2 isn't an example of a piece that deliberately uses tropes for effect; it's completely lacking in self-awareness), is overwhelmingly likely to turn out to be goddawful, as it wipes away any sense of organic character development. The fact that the dichotomy was, in this case, the most well-known, over-studied characterisation flaw in literature just makes it all the more unbelievable that a professional writer would produce it in such an obvious manner, to such poor effect.

Can you honestly tell me that you didn't feel insulted by the DA2 dialogue? With those 2 characters in particular? Can you honestly say that they weren't unbelievably one-dimensional? That's BECAUSE they've just been constructed around a linear dichotomy. Instead of either (a) thinking of the character naturalistically, (b) having the character arise from the narrative's themes, or even (c) going with the dichotomy but just being aware of it and using it to effect (e.g. Troika uses the same dichotomy at times in VtMB, but always knowingly and to effect, often as a means to lure the player into making certain false assumptions about what an NPC is going to do) Bioware's writers simply mark out spots along basic dichotomies and hang all of the character's personaity and motivations upon it.

It's also why Bioware's characters keep falling back upon 'daddy issues'. They have to - there's nowhere for the characters to go in the narrative, so instead they turn to the past in a manner that's disconnected from their current context. They're too one-dimensional for the writers to think in terms of organic growth (i.e. 'how would this character react to this situation, and how would it change him/her?'), they serve no function in terms of the story's themes, and they're mostly extraneous to the narrative (given the issues that arise from making NPC's vital to the narrative, hence forcing the player to take them, I tend to favour thematic characters ala PS:T). Sure, they can add a backstory and have the characters reference it, but when it comes to their actual personality, the writers haven't thought past 'is this one a virgin or a whore? Is that guy a paladin or a psychopath?' and so any character growth is going to feel arbitrary. I forget the exact wording of the Hepler quote that folks made so much fun of, but it was something along the lines of 'We've got a highly sexed character and a virginial character [nb:except that she didn't say it in terms that were as self-aware as these] so we've got them all covered.' (I'm sure someone can find a link to the quote).

And a professional writer should know that shit. It isn't even an issue of talent, it's just the basics of writing - as I said in the previous post, it's the kind of thing that separates professional writing from fan-fiction. The fact that this comes from full-time writers, who studied writing formally, makes it a lot less forgiveable than it would be if this was a hobbyist who made it big on pure talent, or if it were a developer/designer who was writing due to lack of a writing team.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
He's also a repulsive blue-gray corpse covered in scars. So you know, acquired taste.

Yeah, right. Rugged masculinity and all that. All of them fall for it.

The_Nameless_One_by_Vertlain.jpg
 

kris

Arcane
Joined
Oct 27, 2004
Messages
8,844
Location
Lulea, Sweden
Please stop this absurd misogyny-internalizing shit.

You can call it misogyny-internalising all you like, but it's still shit writing.

It works better if you read all posts Azrael. for instance you would see that someone already said that BN was sarcastic, which was pretty evident if you read his posts in this thread.
 

Kane

I have many names
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
22,279
Location
Drug addicted, mentally ill gays HQ
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
I like how you and BN ignored where I said "I don't like it very much either." There are degrees of offensiveness. One can develop a sexism callus wherein one shitty male gaze-oriented armor gets a "Meh, business as usual, can't even get angry at this anymore" reaction and another gets "Fuck you."

Also it definitely fits the Planescape setting because it's brown, grey and spiky.

Really? Sometimes you don't care about the evil patriarchy opressing women and sometimes - when you can be arsed to get riled up - you hate the shit out of some pixel for bringing down the poor woman?

DOWN WITH THE EVIL PATRIARCHY.. but not today, I have migraine.
 

PunkPkunk

Educated
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
50
Successful troll is successful.

Accusing Bioware of misogyny? Bioware, just like every other high profile company, panders to women.

Because women control more than 60 % of all the wealth in the west.

Honestly, it's every company's wet dream to get wimin to buy their shit faithfully, or hasn't the steady uptick in 'strong independant' female types made it obvious?
 

Grimlorn

Arcane
Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Messages
10,248
Great article. I kind of doubt it's true that they mainly left due to negative fan feedback though. I mean if this is the case then why is Trent Oster putting out an article about it, so people can just criticize Ray and Greg more? Doesn't make any kind of sense.

Edit:
Actually, if this article is true then I love it. It means that the fans really did hurt their feelings. Maybe they should try putting out good games. They tend to not receive much negative feedback.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
Where'sm his evidence?

And, come on. BIodcos have been bashed since their first game was released so i doubt they can't handle criticism. That said, they've been in the industry for almost 2 decades... perhaps they needed a change and it's not like they need the money.

I mean Tim Cain and others took breaks as well. *shrug*
 

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