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Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Disco Elysium

Discussion in 'RPG Codex News & Content Comments' started by Infinitron, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. Prime Junta Arcane Patron

    Prime Junta
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    This is entirely true and correct. Felicitations on taking the first step towards enlightenment™.
     
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  2. Maxie Der Einzige Patron

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    shut your whore mouth
     
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  3. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    https://zaumstudio.com/2019/09/30/introducing-the-thought-cabinet/
     
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  4. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

    Eyestabber
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    An RPG is a game in which you play as guy/girl/tranny/something with an uncanny talent for murdering shit. You start with basic tools for murdering shit and, by looting and regular character progression, you acquire new and more effective tools for murdering shit, while murdering bigger and more challenging shit.

    The reason why your character commits so many murders may or may not be explained. Maybe you need to save your vault/village/home, maybe you're butthurt at the villain because he got to tap Imoen while you never did. Whatever. What matters is that your character keeps pushing forward and committing more murders.

    In your path you may get these things called "quests", which present very important moral dilemmas for you to choose. Nah, jk, the only choice is which side has the best murder opportunities and whether or not killing the quest giver for more XP is worth it.

    Tl;dr: Doom is a gr8 RPG with tons of replayability, while DE is gay shit without combat, therefore not an RPG. If you're looking for something different, I recommend Slay the Spire, a game that is very much about killing shit.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
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  5. ScrotumBroth Disco balls Patron

    ScrotumBroth
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    I feel like this game is ideal candidate for a gonzo journalism review.
     
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  6. Politician Lurker King

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    Are you implying that the glorious King of the Dragon Pass doesn't have any combat? Because that would be a lie.

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. ItsChon Resident Zoomer Patron

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    If DE's combat is just clicking a bunch of dialogue checks and watching the outcome, I fail to see how KotDP's combat system isn't just clicking a range of options in different combinations for different outcomes. Obviously one is more complex and nuanced than the other, but whether or not something is considered combat doesn't necessarily depend on how complex it is. Just more Codex circle-jerking and agenda-pushing.
    Imagine comparing an actual RPG like DE to a card-based dungeon crawl like Slay the Spire, where your build is dependant on whether or not you get the right cards to make your predecided build work. Get the fuck out.
     
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  8. Kyl Von Kull The Night Tripper Patron

    Kyl Von Kull
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    Humor check: (failed)
     
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  9. Jenkem Cipher Patron

    Jenkem
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    Make the Codex Great Again!
    no my point was that the times you actually engage in combat in DE is ONE FUCKING TIME, despite people saying pre-release "there's combat, there's just not a combat system it's done in dialogues" and no I don't think punching or slapping someone mid-dialogue is "combat" like some here would like you to think. My criticism wasn't of the method of combat, but that there is literally no combat outside of that final encounter and no kicking measurehead doesn't count either. does king of the dragon pass have only ONE (1) combat encounter that's heavily scripted? No? then why are you equating it to what I said out of context?
     
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  10. Jenkem Cipher Patron

    Jenkem
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    look at this carlos mencia type this amy schumer type. sad
     
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  11. Politician Lurker King

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    Look, the first thing we need to settle is that cRPG is not an honorific class. You can have terrible cRPGs and great CYOAs, or mediocre race games and incredible shooters. Now, if you want to criticize heavy text cRPGs that have next to no combat as bad cRPGs, I would understand. Even PS:T has a ton of combat and a D&D system. It’s not great, but it adds pacing and a sense of progression. So yeah, I think these CYOA criticisms tend to move the discussion from the main problem, which is a lack of a traditional combat system. I agree with you that this is one of the cornerstones of a good cRPG, unless, of course, you manage to replace the combat for an equally complex and compelling system, which doesn’t seem to be the case with this game.
     
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  12. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
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    That puts the point just about perfectly.

    :salute:
     
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  13. Taurist Educated

    Taurist
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    The issue is the lack of systems generally, beyond a dice roll and a a stat check. A combat system doesnt generally just mean an option in a conversation box like in KotDP of Disco Elysium. You dont generally walk up to a group of kobolds and get given an option [1. Chuck a fireball [Magic] 2. Retreat! ]. Instead you get a full system which allows some level of emergent gamer choice in a combat system. This can apply to non combat options as well, the example of pickpocketing in Fallout was given above.

    In order to give these more emergent options, rather than selecting from a conversation box, what dialogue needs is a gamplay system, like Fallouts various interactions (pickpocketing, repair etc), which will allow the player to be in more control of the conversation. I think you all know what we need back.

    Show Spoiler
    [​IMG]


    I joke of course, but has any game successfully made a proper game system for conversation? I know that earlier PC RPGs games often had text inputs, but they usually didnt work. And a text input isnt as good an abstraction as a combat system is to real combat. How can a system exist that will actually allow me to use my 4 points in suggestion?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
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  14. Politician Lurker King

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    I understand, but you need to keep in mind that you have advantages and disadvantages in each system. It’s a trade-off. If you choose a more traditional combat system you have more variety, but you lose the narrative impact and unique character of each encounter. In KotDP each encounter feels like a unique event, while in BG, you kill how many orcs? One million of them. But hey, that adds pacing, so it must be good, right? You can argue that a developer could make each encounter unique, but that is more easily implemented in a strategy game. Of course, you could insist that the encounters of KotDP are meaningless to you, but that’s because you don’t care about the narrative, the setting or the characters. You are a reductionist and the only thing that matters to you is a combat system with things to do. I disagree with this perspective because cRPGs are due to their own nature simulationists, so it should matter whether the setting, the characters, and the encounters are interesting or not. If you think it doesn’t, and dismiss this as a presumption of failed artists, you are wrong. Of course, this doesn’t mean that developers should strive to do social commentary at the expense of the genre. There is a middle ground somewhere. Case in point, JA is a well-written game in the sense that it has the atmosphere and theme of an action movie from the 80s. The game would be considerably worse if the theme was presented in a more generic and unimaginative way even with the same systems.

    FO doesn’t have so much freedom as people sometimes want to suggest here. Besides, what made the Fallouts special and innovative, besides the setting, was the use of skill/stat checks in dialogue boxes. To praise the game for the emergent gameplay in a case against dialogue gameplay is ironic, to say the least. It is like praising the Eiffel Tower for its height. It misses the whole point.

    We shouldn’t kid ourselves. There is no way in hell than any dialogue system will ever achieve the same complexity of a traditional combat system because you don’t have the same repetitive tasks and variations in a meaningful quest, even if you consider different choices, items, etc. I think what is happening is this: some people here value stat/skill checks, interesting settings, NPCs, etc., and think these things should be an essential ingredient of a cRPG; while other people, like you, think this distracts from the core of gameplay, which should be the combat and exploration, and think this is pretentious because cRPGs are not books. I value the combat and exploration too, but I also want compelling settings, choices, and quests. It’s really hard to keep interested in cRPGs when you killed an orc or did a FedEx quest for the thousandth time. What is worse, I don’t think you can have a compelling setting with the kind of emergent gameplay and freedom players like you aspire to, so we will be fated to discuss and disagree about these things forever, just like Sisyphus was fated to roll his boulder up a hill.
     
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  15. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite

    Roguey
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    Outcomes that are entirely scripted aren't a combat system. DE has no combat system.
     
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  16. Politician Lurker King

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    The decisions in a traditional combat system are entirely scripted in the sense that such and such input has such and such output. You have no freedom here and your choices are predetermined. The difference is that it is a more complex system, so it gives you the illusion that you have freedom. In fact, freedom in cRPGs is pretending you are the boss when in reality you are justing moving from one predetermined point to another.
     
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  17. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

    FeelTheRads
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    Yes, if all you know is garbage shit like AoD.

    In fact, AoD even fails at giving you any illusion, that's how bad it is.

    Also, your reply is retarded (as usual) and has nothing to do with what Roguey said, which was for braindead like ItsChon and Junta who think a dice roll to hit a kid using a skill vaguely named like something physical counts as combat.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  18. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite

    Roguey
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    One allows for emergent gameplay, the other does not. Using systems, any given combat encounter can play out very differently depending on who's playing and what actions they take. In scripted combat scenarios oh sure you have your RNG, but how combat plays out is limited to how much Kurvitz felt like writing.
     
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  19. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

    FeelTheRads
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    Oh yeah, that shootout at the end is not combat in any way either.

    You're playing on a script and that's it. It's not just "heavily scripted", it's a fucking script. Literally no difference between that and any other conversation in the game.
     
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  20. Politician Lurker King

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    Look, if you never played the game, don't bother to comment about it. There is plenty of multiple venues to go through, with combat or not, fail-and-go-scenarios and whatnot. Don't be disingenuous and parrot things anyone who played the game knows it is false.
     
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  21. Politician Lurker King

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    This is the movie for combatfags

    [​IMG]

    This is the movie for storyfags

    [​IMG]


    Where is the middle ground?
     
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  22. Politician Lurker King

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    What you can and cannot do in emergent gameplay is predetermined by the developer. Besides, in emergent gameplay, you don’t have the sort of meaningful narrative impact you have in scripted text-adventure events. You may not like those, but it adds something you can’t have in emergent gameplay.
     
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  23. lukaszek the determinator

    lukaszek
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    I just started, made a character with lowest physique. Had a fatal crash with stationary wheelchair lady. Didn't survive that one. As in I died. Clearly combat encounter
     
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  24. Zed Duke of Banville Zo Kath Ra Patron

    Zed Duke of Banville
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    The Choose Your Own Adventure genre is relevant to discussion of Disco Elysium because it relates to the fundamental concept of the game, which is to replace game mechanics with scripting. The removal of mechanics might be most evident in combat but is not solely restricted to combat --- and the game only includes a few narrative situations of combat, broadly defined, such as punching Cuno, fighting Measurehead, and the "tribunal".
     
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  25. Haba Harbinger of Decline Patron

    Haba
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    Codex 2012 MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
    And have wildly different results, right?
    - player died, get a game over screen (go to page 91)
    - player victorious, continue (go to page 2)

    Sounds like a CYOA to me.
     
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