Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Disco Elysium

[Lithium Flower]

After researching advanced genre theory for long enough, I have come to the conclusion that the genre enigma is mostly aesthetic.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Morrowind which let you become heads of several guilds simultaneously

Oblivion, more like.

 

[Jenkem]

Also there is combat in DE. I've punched a kid, roundhouse kicked a race theorist in the face, shot two people, and gotten shot.

more disingenuous shit. this is not "combat" and you fucking know it. these are dialogue choices and/or scripted events. one of the more disappointing things was when '''''''''''''people'''''''''''''' were claiming yes there's combat it's just through the dialogue system when that is a fucking lie and the fact is that there is ONE (1) scripted encounter near the end of the game. you can't instigiate a "fight" anywhere else.

 

[Jenkem]

What? DE may not be a "full-fledged RPG" (if RPGs require robust combat systems; there are occasional fights of a limited sort in the game), but it has not even the faintest resemblance to CYOA books, which don't track variables. Even the very, very limited number of gamebooks that tracked character stats (in a very, very limited way) didn't track world-state variables. And none of them had anything resembling dialogue.

You might say that DE is a very good RPG minus combat, but a CYOA book is not an RPG minus combat, it's something else entirely. An elephant without tusks isn't a chez lounge.

And, to preempt the argument, DE isn't an adventure game. Its puzzles are comparably limited to its combat, its items primarily have generic stat-based effects that trigger upon being equipped rather than custom puzzle-oriented effects that trigger upon being used on a hotspot.

Nor is DE a visual novel, as those don't offer free-form exploration, inventories, etc.

Overall, DE is clearly closest to an RPG, so it seems like either you have to say "it's its own thing" or "it's an RPG without combat" rather than trying to shoehorn it into some other category of game.

First, there are plenty of VNs that have exploration and inventories, etc. Two that I recommended in the DE thread both have inventories and exploration. You are correct on everything else though, any genre in which you put the game in ends up with the game lacking a variety of substantive elements for that particularly genre. The game is the video game manifestation of gommunism, it has a few good ideas and a lot of horrible ones, and it all sounds good on paper but when put into practice it all falls apart.

Which leads us to:

It's even funnier how shills were complaining nobody discussing the game, but now that people tried, it quickly turns out we shouldn't discuss:

- mechanics
- combat
- features
- genres
- anything at all related to the game,

Because it's all unfair nitpicking, and missing a point, and you're playing it wrong.

So let's just agree that the only acceptable way of discussing Disco Elysium is to film yourself furiously jacking off to Disco Elysium logo, then inserting a boxed copy of the game into your anus while screaming KUURVITZ I LOVE YOU.

The fans of DE, like the fans of gommunism, will downplay and minimize any perceived criticism that they feel "harms" the game. If you had an issue with a particular mechanic or situation, it's not the fault of disco elysium lacking in certain areas, or systems not working as well as they should, but something wrong with YOU! If you stand by your opinion without acquiescing they become enraged that you are not falling into line and will gang stalk you. And in the end, real disco elysium has not been tried, so buy the sequel, bigot.

 

[Jenkem]

is disco elysium the only thing that postmodern marxists DON'T want labelled and categorized?

 

[Prime Junta]

is disco elysium the only thing that postmodern marxists DON'T want labelled and categorized?

This ain't Marxism or pomo. There is a philosophical basis but somehow I doubt you'd be all that interested to hear about it so I won't bore you.

But to answer your question, no, this is a general principle. There are no ontological categories, only provisional and situational ones.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

is disco elysium the only thing that postmodern marxists DON'T want labelled and categorized?

There is no Prime Junta. There may be a set of qualities or characteristics that are Prime Junta-ish, but we must reject the notion that these qualities or characteristics can be assigned the identity of Prime Junta in any way other than situationally.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

is disco elysium the only thing that postmodern marxists DON'T want labelled and categorized?

There is no Prime Junta. There may be a set of qualities or characteristics that are Prime Junta-ish, but we must reject the notion that these qualities or characteristics can be assigned the identity of Prime Junta in any way other than situationally.

Prime Junta is not the subject of classification, but an object within it. Gotta improve your rhetoric, lad.

 

[Darth Roxor]

And in the end, real disco elysium has not been tried, so buy the sequel

 

[BlaineMono]

Sidestepping this incredibly faggy discussion for a little bit, the review mentions that all pictures in the thought cabinet are actually parts of the same giant mural.

Is that really so? If yes then does anyone have the link to the whole thing?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

So we're moving the goalposts from "guys this is definitely an RPG" to "look I just don't like all these labels".

Progress I guess.

 

[Prime Junta]

There is no Prime Junta. There may be a set of qualities or characteristics that are Prime Junta-ish, but we must reject the notion that these qualities or characteristics can be assigned the identity of Prime Junta in any way other than situationally.

This is entirely true and correct. Felicitations on taking the first step towards enlightenment™.

 

[Infinitron]

Sidestepping this incredibly faggy discussion for a little bit, the review mentions that all pictures in the thought cabinet are actually parts of the same giant mural.

Is that really so? If yes then does anyone have the link to the whole thing?

https://zaumstudio.com/2019/09/30/introducing-the-thought-cabinet/

 

[Eyestabber]

An RPG is a game in which you play as guy/girl/tranny/something with an uncanny talent for murdering shit. You start with basic tools for murdering shit and, by looting and regular character progression, you acquire new and more effective tools for murdering shit, while murdering bigger and more challenging shit.

The reason why your character commits so many murders may or may not be explained. Maybe you need to save your vault/village/home, maybe you're butthurt at the villain because he got to tap Imoen while you never did. Whatever. What matters is that your character keeps pushing forward and committing more murders.

In your path you may get these things called "quests", which present very important moral dilemmas for you to choose. Nah, jk, the only choice is which side has the best murder opportunities and whether or not killing the quest giver for more XP is worth it.

Tl;dr: Doom is a gr8 RPG with tons of replayability, while DE is gay shit without combat, therefore not an RPG. If you're looking for something different, I recommend Slay the Spire, a game that is very much about killing shit.

 

[ScrotumBroth]

I feel like this game is ideal candidate for a gonzo journalism review.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Also there is combat in DE. I've punched a kid, roundhouse kicked a race theorist in the face, shot two people, and gotten shot.

more disingenuous shit. this is not "combat" and you fucking know it. these are dialogue choices and/or scripted events. one of the more disappointing things was when '''''''''''''people'''''''''''''' were claiming yes there's combat it's just through the dialogue system when that is a fucking lie and the fact is that there is ONE (1) scripted encounter near the end of the game. you can't instigiate a "fight" anywhere else.

Are you implying that the glorious King of the Dragon Pass doesn't have any combat? Because that would be a lie.

 

[ItsChon]

If DE's combat is just clicking a bunch of dialogue checks and watching the outcome, I fail to see how KotDP's combat system isn't just clicking a range of options in different combinations for different outcomes. Obviously one is more complex and nuanced than the other, but whether or not something is considered combat doesn't necessarily depend on how complex it is. Just more Codex circle-jerking and agenda-pushing.

If you're looking for something different, I recommend Slay the Spire, a game that is very much about killing shit.

Imagine comparing an actual RPG like DE to a card-based dungeon crawl like Slay the Spire, where your build is dependant on whether or not you get the right cards to make your predecided build work. Get the fuck out.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Humor check: (failed)

 

[Jenkem]

Also there is combat in DE. I've punched a kid, roundhouse kicked a race theorist in the face, shot two people, and gotten shot.

more disingenuous shit. this is not "combat" and you fucking know it. these are dialogue choices and/or scripted events. one of the more disappointing things was when '''''''''''''people'''''''''''''' were claiming yes there's combat it's just through the dialogue system when that is a fucking lie and the fact is that there is ONE (1) scripted encounter near the end of the game. you can't instigiate a "fight" anywhere else.

Are you implying that the glorious King of the Dragon Pass doesn't have any combat? Because that would be a lie.

no my point was that the times you actually engage in combat in DE is ONE FUCKING TIME, despite people saying pre-release "there's combat, there's just not a combat system it's done in dialogues" and no I don't think punching or slapping someone mid-dialogue is "combat" like some here would like you to think. My criticism wasn't of the method of combat, but that there is literally no combat outside of that final encounter and no kicking measurehead doesn't count either. does king of the dragon pass have only ONE (1) combat encounter that's heavily scripted? No? then why are you equating it to what I said out of context?

 

[Jenkem]

And in the end, real disco elysium has not been tried, so buy the sequel

look at this carlos mencia type this amy schumer type. sad

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

no my point was that the times you actually engage in combat in DE is ONE FUCKING TIME, despite people saying pre-release "there's combat, there's just not a combat system it's done in dialogues" and no I don't think punching or slapping someone mid-dialogue is "combat" like some here would like you to think. My criticism wasn't of the method of combat, but that there is literally no combat outside of that final encounter and no kicking measurehead doesn't count either. does king of the dragon pass have only ONE (1) combat encounter that's heavily scripted? No? then why are you equating it to what I said out of context?

Look, the first thing we need to settle is that cRPG is not an honorific class. You can have terrible cRPGs and great CYOAs, or mediocre race games and incredible shooters. Now, if you want to criticize heavy text cRPGs that have next to no combat as bad cRPGs, I would understand. Even PS:T has a ton of combat and a D&D system. It’s not great, but it adds pacing and a sense of progression. So yeah, I think these CYOA criticisms tend to move the discussion from the main problem, which is a lack of a traditional combat system. I agree with you that this is one of the cornerstones of a good cRPG, unless, of course, you manage to replace the combat for an equally complex and compelling system, which doesn’t seem to be the case with this game.

 

[MRY]

That puts the point just about perfectly.

 

[Taurist]

The issue is the lack of systems generally, beyond a dice roll and a a stat check. A combat system doesnt generally just mean an option in a conversation box like in KotDP of Disco Elysium. You dont generally walk up to a group of kobolds and get given an option [1. Chuck a fireball [Magic] 2. Retreat! ]. Instead you get a full system which allows some level of emergent gamer choice in a combat system. This can apply to non combat options as well, the example of pickpocketing in Fallout was given above.

In order to give these more emergent options, rather than selecting from a conversation box, what dialogue needs is a gamplay system, like Fallouts various interactions (pickpocketing, repair etc), which will allow the player to be in more control of the conversation. I think you all know what we need back.

Spoiler

I joke of course, but has any game successfully made a proper game system for conversation? I know that earlier PC RPGs games often had text inputs, but they usually didnt work. And a text input isnt as good an abstraction as a combat system is to real combat. How can a system exist that will actually allow me to use my 4 points in suggestion?

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

The issue is the lack of systems generally, beyond a dice roll and a a stat check. A combat system doesn't generally just mean an option in a conversation box like in KotDP of Disco Elysium. You dont generally walk up to a group of kobolds and get given an option [1. Chuck a fireball [Magic] 2. Retreat! ]. Instead you get a full system which allows some level of emergent gamer choice in a combat system. This can apply to non combat options as well, the example of pickpocketing in Fallout was given above.

I understand, but you need to keep in mind that you have advantages and disadvantages in each system. It’s a trade-off. If you choose a more traditional combat system you have more variety, but you lose the narrative impact and unique character of each encounter. In KotDP each encounter feels like a unique event, while in BG, you kill how many orcs? One million of them. But hey, that adds pacing, so it must be good, right? You can argue that a developer could make each encounter unique, but that is more easily implemented in a strategy game. Of course, you could insist that the encounters of KotDP are meaningless to you, but that’s because you don’t care about the narrative, the setting or the characters. You are a reductionist and the only thing that matters to you is a combat system with things to do. I disagree with this perspective because cRPGs are due to their own nature simulationists, so it should matter whether the setting, the characters, and the encounters are interesting or not. If you think it doesn’t, and dismiss this as a presumption of failed artists, you are wrong. Of course, this doesn’t mean that developers should strive to do social commentary at the expense of the genre. There is a middle ground somewhere. Case in point, JA is a well-written game in the sense that it has the atmosphere and theme of an action movie from the 80s. The game would be considerably worse if the theme was presented in a more generic and unimaginative way even with the same systems.

In order to give these more emergent options, rather than selecting from a conversation box, what dialogue needs is a gameplay system, like Fallouts various interactions (pickpocketing, repair etc), which will allow the player to be in more control of the conversation. I think you all know what we need back.

FO doesn’t have so much freedom as people sometimes want to suggest here. Besides, what made the Fallouts special and innovative, besides the setting, was the use of skill/stat checks in dialogue boxes. To praise the game for the emergent gameplay in a case against dialogue gameplay is ironic, to say the least. It is like praising the Eiffel Tower for its height. It misses the whole point.

I joke of course, but has any game successfully made a proper game system for conversation? I know that earlier PC RPGs games often had text inputs, but they usually didnt work. And a text input isn't as good an abstraction as a combat system is to real combat. How can a system exist that will actually allow me to use my 4 points in the suggestion?

We shouldn’t kid ourselves. There is no way in hell than any dialogue system will ever achieve the same complexity of a traditional combat system because you don’t have the same repetitive tasks and variations in a meaningful quest, even if you consider different choices, items, etc. I think what is happening is this: some people here value stat/skill checks, interesting settings, NPCs, etc., and think these things should be an essential ingredient of a cRPG; while other people, like you, think this distracts from the core of gameplay, which should be the combat and exploration, and think this is pretentious because cRPGs are not books. I value the combat and exploration too, but I also want compelling settings, choices, and quests. It’s really hard to keep interested in cRPGs when you killed an orc or did a FedEx quest for the thousandth time. What is worse, I don’t think you can have a compelling setting with the kind of emergent gameplay and freedom players like you aspire to, so we will be fated to discuss and disagree about these things forever, just like Sisyphus was fated to roll his boulder up a hill.

 

[Roguey]

If DE's combat is just clicking a bunch of dialogue checks and watching the outcome, I fail to see how KotDP's combat system isn't just clicking a range of options in different combinations for different outcomes. Obviously one is more complex and nuanced than the other, but whether or not something is considered combat doesn't necessarily depend on how complex it is.

Outcomes that are entirely scripted aren't a combat system. DE has no combat system.