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World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs and Brian Mitsoda - coming March

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by vortex, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. volklore Educated

    volklore
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    You don't find accuracy/steadiness/recoil increase/decrease with stats entertaining in deus ex 1?
     
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  2. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite Sawyerist Sawyer's Bride No Fun Allowed

    Roguey
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    Deus Ex: Human Revolution had this without making any guns bullet hoses (you could upgrade your character to reduce recoil and moving-while-shooting-accuracy so you could play more as a run and gunner).

    Then there was Fallout New Vegas where meeting the skill requirements on any gun would allow perfect accuracy while aiming and standing motionless (and there were also perks that allowed you to run and gun better).
     
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  3. Kem0sabe Arcane

    Kem0sabe
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    No, it's clunky as fuck.
     
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  4. Zer0wing Arbiter

    Zer0wing
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    Definitely not how Deus Ex 1 handles it.
     
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  5. normie Learned Zionist Agent

    normie
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    morrowind had the best combat
     
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  6. Cross Savant

    Cross
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    Bloodlines did "stat based combat" wrong. Deus Ex did it right by making your weapon skill affect how long it took for the crosshairs to tighten, with it occuring faster the higher your weapon skill, giving you direct feedback on where your shots will go. Once your crosshairs are tightened, you have the same accuracy as you do in any normal FPS. And with master weapon skill, your crosshairs tighten basically instantly.

    In Bloodlines the crosshairs never tighten. Even with the highest possible ranged feat, they always stay wide apart even when standing perfectly still. This means you never know where your shots will go.

    In Deus Ex weapon skill affects multiple things like reloading speed and movement speed while holding heavy weapons. In Bloodlines weapon skill only affects damage and (possibly) accuracy.

    Bloodlines also has random damage, e.g. it's possible to see a weapon deal anywhere from 2 to 20 damage. Deus Ex, as well as every other action-RPG, avoids this and used fixed damage, and for good reason. Damage ranges exist in tabletop/turn-based RPGs to simulate the chaos and unpredictability of combat. This is not necessary in an action-RPG because that chaos is already there on account of it being an action game.

    There's lots of other things Bloodlines does wrong, like how the 'block' move doesn't actually block anything and just marginally reduces damage, making it completely useless when you could have killed the enemy in the time it took to block. Or how enemies are almost always completely stationary when they attack, whereas in other FPS or action-RPGs they strafe and move around you. There's very little positive to say about Bloodlines' combat.

    That being said, the combat in Bloodlines 2 looks even worse, which is quite an achievement.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
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  7. Bester Arcane Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    I always said VTMB needs:
    - stealth and AI from MGS5
    - gunplay from Far Cry
    - melee combat from Chivalry
     
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  8. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
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    Random damage is OK because not every shot will do same damage. It depends on multiple factors, mostly where it hits. And if the game does not have body part shooting random damage is only way to simulate this.

    Also Deus Ex is a bad comparison. In Deus Ex you start as a hardcore and experienced police/military guy with enhancements. Of course your gun skill is already near max and all you invest into are masteries.

    In Bloodlines you start as a random Joe that just got embraced. You cannot even choose your background and you just pick what skills you are proficient with. And I doubt anyone puts all their points into guns. I think combat was done OK. Guns missed as they should in RL (statistics show that cops miss a huge percentage of their shots and they are trained) and melee combat was messy as it is also often in RL. Nobody in RL does precise kung fu moves and takes down 5 people like they are Daredevil.
     
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  9. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
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    People that claim Bloodlines combat was bad don't want a RPG, they want their power fantasy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
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  10. Delterius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Delterius
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    and to those i'd say stop using stoopid guns and just grab celerity/thaumaturgy/wolf magic dangnabbitus
     
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  11. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Wesp5
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    This is exactly the same in Bloodlines.

    This depends on the guns in Bloodlines. Some stay wider apart than others because I guess not all weapons have the same accuracy even when handled perfectly.

    Yeah, the weapon skill also affects if you can magically damage a target at all which I found really ridiculous at the time!

    I think this is exaggerated, while there is some random damage fluctuation, it shouldn't be that high...
     
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  12. Squadcar Learned

    Squadcar
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    I agree with this if I want to play a RPG.

    I don't mind twitch based combat, I like games that require my skill in combat but I don't want that in a RPG. I'd go play a FPS game if I want to test my skills. I don't mind Dark Souls and Witcher combat but they really take away from the idea of RPG if you ask me and make them at most action-RPGs. Stat based combat is how RPGs should be.
     
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  13. Child of Malkav Learned

    Child of Malkav
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    Missed shots, missed this missed that, simulate real life, accuracy, recoil etc.
    So basically you want this kind of retarded shit cus it's realistic:
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
    Though in this case we run into a bit of a quagmire in that "Thin-Blood" in regards to how it's used in the setting is very fast and loose and often extremely dependent on the specific time period (ie, before 20th century, 12th Generation was already considered a Thin-Blood and 13th Gen was prone to kill-on-sight domain policy), and in regards to editions while Thin-Bloods in V5 can't have that particular weakness in previous editions since they were essentially sets of additional Flaws and scant Merits they COULD (and by default would) have Clan Weaknesses (though in previous editions the Nosferatu Clan Weakness could be taken as extra by ANY vampire, so that's just another layer of caveats to note).
     
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  15. Zombra Arcane Patron

    Zombra
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    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    RPGs are absolutely not superior "realism simulators". "Realism" in gun handling and stat-based combat are two very distinct (though related) issues. Many games have realistic gun handling (wandering reticles, bullet spread, reduced accuracy while moving etc.) but do not use RPG stats. Also, many games have RPG stats but don't use any stuff like this, just modifiers to damage or "forced" misses. My favorite example of a game that knows what it's trying to do and pulls it off brilliantly is the first Silent Hill, where the protagonist was "just some guy" so his aim was always crap and combat was deliberately clunky to reflect it.

    In my opinion, the ideal action-RPG should use all the same systems advanced shooters do, and have those systems governed by character stats, in a perfect marriage of strong gameplay and character building relevance. I absolutely want my crosshair wandering all over the screen if my character's skill level sucks. Guys like Kem0sabe who expect character stats to be irrelevant in the gameplay can and should max their character skill levels. If you want to play a character who can shoot straight, build a character who can shoot straight. Not rocket science.

    In this specific case, however, I don't need Bloodlines 2 to strive for this particular ideal; it should invest its development hours in what's important. I feel like they've made a strong declaration about this in their "you throw away guns" move; again, no matter what your stats, the player character is not going to be a United States Marine. Which is fine; nobody with an ounce of sense came to this thread expecting the world's best-designed first-person shooter.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
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  16. Kem0sabe Arcane

    Kem0sabe
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    My issue is not with stats governing game systems, it's how developers used that as an excuse for poor game design. Do you want a ranged combat system that is stat dependent but with the trade-off that it plays like shit?

    I'm still to play an rpg shooter with stat dependent aiming that feels fun to play... they always feel like you are wrestling against the game systems during fights. My advice to devs is that if you can't master it, then ditch it, because people are paying good money to suffer through your shit design skills.
     
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  17. Zombra Arcane Patron

    Zombra
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    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    To be blunt, yes. No one is excited about weak gameplay, but if I have to choose between a sweet action game and an RPG where character build matters, I'll take the RPG every time.

    All or nothing, eh? That's valid. I don't mind mediocre gunplay, but personally I'd be fine with it if the player character in Bloodlines 2 couldn't use guns at all.
     
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  18. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker


     
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  19. Who Cares Educated

    Who Cares
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    Instead it's gonna have:
    Stealth and AI from Far Cry
    Gunplay from Chivalry
    Melee combar from MGS5
    Screencap this.
     
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  20. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    :nocountryforshitposters:
    Have you even played the first game?!
     
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  21. Rinslin Merwind Learned

    Rinslin Merwind
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    You do not to be a fucking US marine to not to do retarded shit such as throwing your gun away after killing shit load people with it. And you don't need to be a US marine to be decent gun user. Guns isn't rocket science, with enough dedication and training ( aka in-game it will be just leveling your skills) and viola - you are decent gunman.
     
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  22. Fluent Arcane Possibly Retarded The Real Fanboy

    Fluent
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    Throwing your gun away is dope, it's an action movie thing. You can always procure another one, what vampire worth its salt is going to fuck with bullets and ammunition? Just grab a gun and squeeze until empty, throw away and pick up some other weapon. The Chad way.
     
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  23. HansDampf Prophet

    HansDampf
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  24. Vibalist Arcane

    Vibalist
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    Holy fuck, who engineered this track? It sounds completely unprocessed.

    FFS the snare drum is like 5db louder than everything else.

    And the singer is terrible.

    And there's no width to it at all. This sounds like a Cubase project I made two weeks after getting into music production.
     
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  25. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    Is Gloriously Fabulous Ultra Mega New Age Heavy Pop Soft Art Rock Modern Faggot Garbage!
     
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