Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

[Late Bloomer]

Here is the tldr version

I'm old
Microtransactions make a lot of money
I'm old
I'm old
Next game is going to be 25 dollars
Don't pirate it
I'm old

 

[thesecret1]

Suppose someone says to me that my $20 game costs too much. Unless they are utterly simple, on some level, they know this isn't true. If I'm going to do this for a living, I have to charge enough to stay in business. Buy my game or don't buy it, your choice, but everyone knows I need to get paid some time.

No you old retard, nobody cares about your life situation and you needing to make a living, etc. everyone cares about the final price tag (how much buying the game is going to set them back) and potentially how it compares to the competition (is there a cheaper game I would want to play instead?). Besides, it's not even true. You can charge less, yet make more money thanks to moving more copies – it's a Laffer curve exercise. If you deem it worth it to actually invest into your game, you will move even more copies, the ideal ratio between investment and copies moved, again, being a Laffer curve exercise.

When someone says, "$20 is too much for your game," that's not what they are saying. What they are saying is, "I want to pirate your game, but I know, deep down, that this would be wrong, and I am trying to generate a moral justification for enjoying your labors for free."

Seething cope of someone with no idea about basic economics. If someone wants to pirate your game, he won't waste time talking to you, he'll just do it and tell you to blow it out your ass if you ask him about it.

 

[AdolfSatan]

It's been enough years that I've forgotten all the details, so I'm replaying Exile 3… Why couldn't Jeff stay on the good path? This is one of the greatest RPGs ever.

Also, lol at the rants about being old at 50. Faggot needs to inject T and stop being such a pussy.

 

[notpl]

I mean, seriously. I've been trying to get good at game design for almost 30 years. I'm bloated with lessons about usability and empathy for the player, and then the biggest megahit of the year trolls you with the tutorial. What have I even been doing with my life?

I love it when confused old men get so close to "getting it" but don't manage to stick the landing.

 

[BlackGoat]

Someone should tell this dude how much money Vampire Survivors made charging only 3 bucks

 

[Viata]

If someone wants to pirate your game, he won't waste time talking to you

Exactly. Been there, done that. Not for his games, though.

 

[Alienman]

Jeff is so old now he forgot about shareware.

 

[Mauman]

I just want my remaster of Geneforge 2. Which as far as I'm concerned was the pinnacle of spiderweb.

 

[Fowyr]

I wish I could go back in time to when all of us nerds were super-excited about the release of Doom. I would hitchhike to id Software's headquarters and tell them, "Yeah, I know you want to sell this game. But did you realize you can make way more money giving the game away for free and then charging people to make their guns cute?"

They would have thrown me into an asylum.

Yep, because shareware Doom that gave entire first episode for free never existed. Just like Exile that gave away for free gigantic area NE to the Great Cave. Technical thingies aside, players in these times were not braindead zoomers and most of them would never bought $70 cute guns for Doom.

When you release an indie game, there are people who will buy it and people who will pirate it. The second (huge) group of people is lost to you. Don't let yourself be influenced by their thoughts and ways.

Yep, Jeff, you are a moron. News at 11.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

He is right.

 

[Sizzle]

Also, lol at the rants about being old at 50.

He's been railing about being old for the last 15 years or so. Can't even imagine how crotchety he'll be when he actually does get old (if he doesn't retire at 52 before that, of course :D ).

 

[NerevarineKing]

Also, lol at the rants about being old at 50.

He's been railing about being old for the last 15 years or so. Can't even imagine how crotchety he'll be when he actually does get old (if he doesn't retire at 52 before that, of course :D ).

Why retire when he can continue to milk older titles?

 

[Infinitron]

Jeff won't stop babbling: https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/actually-no-we-dont-know-how-much

Actually No, We Don't Know How Much Video Games Should Cost.
"How about Free? Will you pay us zero dollars? Do we need to pay you?"


I admit that using Morty to beat up Batman while Ariana Grande watches would make me smile. What is the rational economic value of one smile?

I wrote a kind of tossed off blog post last week about pricing in video games. The jumping off point was seeing how much people were willing to pay for cosmetics in games like Fortnite or Valorant: Stuff that doesn't make you stronger but gives you a better sense of customization and style.

The post got a lot of really interesting comments. They were very thought-provoking, even the ones that disagreed with me.

The header of the post was, "Do we understand anything about pricing video games?" And you know something? I think we really don't.

A few more thoughts.

1. People Will Pay Money For Fun

One commenter told a really interesting story about how they played Fortnite for a while with siblings. They spent over $250 on cosmetics. Why? Because it made the game more fun and made them laugh. It made their limited, precious family time a little more special, and no regrets.

Now compare this with other sorts of entertainment. For example, here in Seattle, going out to a nice dinner for 4 with drinks can cost $250 easy. Game nerds routinely buy board games that cost $60 and only play them 2-3 times, but that's OK because four people having fun together for 3 evenings is easily worth that much money.

Game cosmetics are an instant pipeline from abstract cash to real enjoyment. It seems silly, but it works.

But, of course, everything I just wrote applies to a fairly affluent people with money to burn. The next time we get a serious recession (which always happens eventually and might be starting now), a hard rain is gonna fall.

Or maybe nothing will change! Who know!?

Spoiler

2. I Don't Think It's About 'Whales'

In mobile games, a whale is a compulsive person who spends enormous amounts of money on upgrades in a game. For a lot of titles, the business model is that most the profit comes from the 1% of players who are whales, while 90% play for cheap or free. (See also: Real life gambling.)

Note, however, that whales are generally spending their money on becoming more powerful in the game. Making upgrades unlock faster, and so on.

My question is: Do cosmetics work the same way? It's hard to find out, because the companies who make these games guard this information very closely.

My gut tells me no. I mean, sure, there are going to be obsessive collectors who buy EVERY. SINGLE. THING. But I bet most who buy cosmetics just buy fancy skins for their favorite gun every so often, to freshen up the experience and generate a few smiles. If you have a link to data that proves me wrong (or right?) I'd love to see it.


I actually really enjoyed studying Economics in school. Its theories are very, very interesting. Just, you know, with limits.

3. Basic Economics Don't Apply To Me, Alas

But back to my business, small indie games. In a rational, economics-based world, every dollar I increase the price of my game by decreases the number of customers. This means there is some ideal price that will maximize my revenue. This is called the Demand Curve.

Alas, as so often happens, the beautiful, crystalline theories of economics smash against the hard reality of erratic human psychology.

Some people have a mental block against spending more for video games. Especially indie games. For a long time, the standard price for an indie game has been $15-20, so increasing it about that seems painful. Plus, it will probably be placed on sale soon. Or put in a Humble Bundle. Or given away for free on Epic.

$25 for a full-length game is cheap entertainment. People routinely spend more on other games for less. ($250 on Fortnite is TEN GAMES.) Yet, for an indie game, it feels expensive. Part of this is that, if you buy a game at full price and it's given away for free the next day, you will feel like an IDIOT. People HATE that.

I think that the customer's fear of feeling dumb is a major factor in how we must price our games.

Of course, nothing can be done about that. Since the market for games in entirely glutted and the most popular games are given away for free, I feel lucky that I can get anyone to give me any sales at any price.

So all I can do will charge a price that will, if I get the usual number of sales, keep me in business. And that is how it will be for all of us from now on, forever.

But I Like To Be Sunny

A large number of the developers who deserve who have success end up getting success. I am very lucky to have my job. The games industry is still growing.

But it's a new industry. How best to price a game was still being worked out a year ago, and, now that the global economic system is all topsy-turvy, we'll have to figure out everything out again.

Thank you for humoring me as I make guesses about where we go from her. If I'm half wrong, at least I'm also half right.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

Technical thingies aside, players in these times were not braindead zoomers and most of them would never bought $70 cute guns for Doom.

Bullshit, D!ZONE would like to have a word with you.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Note, however, that whales are generally spending their money on becoming more powerful in the game. Making upgrades unlock faster, and so on.

My question is: Do cosmetics work the same way? It's hard to find out, because the companies who make these games guard this information very closely.

My gut tells me no ...

Oh sweet summer child. He has no idea, does he? Most whales are people who collect waifu.jpgs. Whaling has nothing to do with selling powerful in-game items. That might've been the case for a very short while 10 years ago when Korean MMOs were still semi-popular and egregiously Pay 2 Win.

 

[Late Bloomer]

$25 for a full-length game is cheap entertainment.

I think that the customer's fear of feeling dumb is a major factor in how we must price our games.

But it's a new industry. How best to price a game was still being worked out a year ago, and, now that the global economic system is all topsy-turvy, we'll have to figure out everything out again.

The industry is no longer new. It is evolving. As does every industry that wants to survive, especially tech related. In the 80's the cost of a new game was between 30-40 US dollars. Which equates to around 80-90 dollars today. The industry is not topsy-turvy it is extraordinarily healthy. Microtransactions have existed since 2006 with Horse Armor. Nothing new there. A recent, fairly successful indie game like Core Keeper is 13 dollars. Vampire Survivors is 3 dollars, the very positive rated favorite among gays, Unpacking is 20 dollars. V Rising sold 1.5 million copies so far and is 20 dollars.

Jeff is doing all these mental gymnastics about economics just so he can charge an extra 5 dollars for his copy pasted Queens Wish 2 to 25 Dollars. I would rather dig a hole in Core Keeper, Unpack an agiing lesbians clothes in Unpacking, or play another half hour session of Vampire Survivors than spend time playing Queen's Wish 2.

 

[CanadianCorndog]

I don't understand why he hates money and wants to do things the hard way.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

$25 for a full-length game is cheap entertainment.

I think that the customer's fear of feeling dumb is a major factor in how we must price our games.

But it's a new industry. How best to price a game was still being worked out a year ago, and, now that the global economic system is all topsy-turvy, we'll have to figure out everything out again.

The industry is no longer new. It is evolving. As does every industry that wants to survive, especially tech related. In the 80's the cost of a new game was between 30-40 US dollars. Which equates to around 80-90 dollars today. The industry is not topsy-turvy it is extraordinarily healthy. Microtransactions have existed since 2006 with Horse Armor. Nothing new there. A recent, fairly successful indie game like Core Keeper is 13 dollars. Vampire Survivors is 3 dollars, the very positive rated favorite among gays, Unpacking is 20 dollars. V Rising sold 1.5 million copies so far and is 20 dollars.

Jeff is doing all these mental gymnastics about economics just so he can charge an extra 5 dollars for his copy pasted Queens Wish 2 to 25 Dollars. I would rather dig a hole in Core Keeper, Unpack an agiing lesbians clothes in Unpacking, or play another half hour session of Vampire Survivors than spend time playing Queen's Wish 2.

At the end of the day the guy is successful - he might be able to make far more money by charging less, but that would require him to take a risk and go against his gut and what's worked for years and years.

It's very easy to play couch quarterback and say this guy should be ballsier with his pricing - but are y'all entrepreneurs going out and making baller money moves all the time, or are you working a desk job like the majority here. Once it's your money and your family on the line it's not easy to take those risks. If it was easy, there'd be a hell of a lot more success stories.

 

[Alienman]

He thinks people that spend 1000 bucks on Fortnite plays indie games. I think that is one big mistake to make.

 

[Late Bloomer]

At the end of the day the guy is successful - he might be able to make far more money by charging less, but that would require him to take a risk and go against his gut and what's worked for years and years.

It's very easy to play couch quarterback and say this guy should be ballsier with his pricing - but are y'all entrepreneurs going out and making baller money moves all the time, or are you working a desk job like the majority here. Once it's your money and your family on the line it's not easy to take those risks. If it was easy, there'd be a hell of a lot more success stories.

I hear what you're saying. I think that way sometimes too. But then I catch myself. Imagining everyone here is a desk jockey is naive at best. Perhaps it's true. Maybe you know something more about the many people that frequent here than I do. Can't say I pay much attention to non game related conversation. I am not allowed in those forums yet regardless. What I do know is that I value others opinions not based on what success or achievements in life I perceive them to have based on my own success or lack thereof in life as you might do, but what they say at the moment, wether I agree or disagree, and if they frequently say things that are asinine. At the end of the day we are on a gaming forum talking about games. Their design, their graphics, gameplay, music, sound, and sometime economics of games. I don't feel one needs to be a musician to appreciate good music, to understand musical form. Nor do I feel someone has to be a game developer to know good game design. People talk games. And even though your opinion feels off to me, I appreciate that you gave me something to think about.

I linked a video at the top of this page. It's timestamped. He lost a bit of my respect saying that. Then Queen's Wish came out, and he lost a bit more. Now he rambles about getting old, getting old, getting old, and microtransactions, and Elden Ring, and microtransactions. His audience, in my opinion are not the ones who will be playing Apex Legends, Fortnite, Valorant and spending big money though. I could be wrong. But as you stated, he has been successful in his own way. He obviously has some very mixed feelings about his success though, if you have taken the time to read his blog posts and watch his speaking engagements. I enjoy when Infinitron posts these updates, dont get me wrong. I have paid for and played many of his games over the years. Some real quality stuff mixed in with some stinkers. I know that Queen's Wish 2 will not be something I spend my time playing though. And I will continue to think that his current ramblings about charging 25 dollars instead of 20 are a bit misguided. Now excuse me, I have a 9-5 desk job I have to wake up for tomorrow.

 

[Fowyr]

Technical thingies aside, players in these times were not braindead zoomers and most of them would never bought $70 cute guns for Doom.

Bullshit, D!ZONE would like to have a word with you.

I had the H!Zone and probably one of the D!ZONEs discs, and it was not "cute guns".

D!ZONE - 75 levels for Doom and Doom II
D!ZONE 150 - 150 levels for Doom and Doom II
D!ZONE 2 - 150 levels for Doom and Doom II (some releases had 1,000 levels for Doom and Doom II)
D!ZONE 2 150 - 150 levels
D!ZONE Collector's Edition - 900 levels for Doom and Doom II (2,000 levels for Doom and The Ultimate Doom in the Macintosh version)
D!ZONE 3 - 1,000 levels for Doom and Doom II
D!ZONE Gold - 3,000 levels for Doom and Doom II
There was also D!MATCH, a collection of 500 levels for Doom and Doom II designed specifically for deathmatch.

 

[c u in da ballpit ashren]

At the end of the day the guy is successful - he might be able to make far more money by charging less, but that would require him to take a risk and go against his gut and what's worked for years and years.

It's very easy to play couch quarterback and say this guy should be ballsier with his pricing - but are y'all entrepreneurs going out and making baller money moves all the time, or are you working a desk job like the majority here. Once it's your money and your family on the line it's not easy to take those risks. If it was easy, there'd be a hell of a lot more success stories.

I hear what you're saying. I think that way sometimes too. But then I catch myself. Imagining everyone here is a desk jockey is naive at best. Perhaps it's true. Maybe you know something more about the many people that frequent here than I do. Can't say I pay much attention to non game related conversation. I am not allowed in those forums yet regardless. What I do know is that I value others opinions not based on what success or achievements in life I perceive them to have based on my own success or lack thereof in life as you might do, but what they say at the moment, wether I agree or disagree, and if they frequently say things that are asinine. At the end of the day we are on a gaming forum talking about games. Their design, their graphics, gameplay, music, sound, and sometime economics of games. I don't feel one needs to be a musician to appreciate good music, to understand musical form. Nor do I feel someone has to be a game developer to know good game design. People talk games. And even though your opinion feels off to me, I appreciate that you gave me something to think about.

I linked a video at the top of this page. It's timestamped. He lost a bit of my respect saying that. Then Queen's Wish came out, and he lost a bit more. Now he rambles about getting old, getting old, getting old, and microtransactions, and Elden Ring, and microtransactions. His audience, in my opinion are not the ones who will be playing Apex Legends, Fortnite, Valorant and spending big money though. I could be wrong. But as you stated, he has been successful in his own way. He obviously has some very mixed feelings about his success though, if you have taken the time to read his blog posts and watch his speaking engagements. I enjoy when Infinitron posts these updates, dont get me wrong. I have paid for and played many of his games over the years. Some real quality stuff mixed in with some stinkers. I know that Queen's Wish 2 will not be something I spend my time playing though. And I will continue to think that his current ramblings about charging 25 dollars instead of 20 are a bit misguided. Now excuse me, I have a 9-5 desk job I have to wake up for tomorrow.

I've seen you around a lot, and your posts get a single wide eye out of me.

I'm a newbie like you, and our names have a similar motif going on. You wouldn't happen to be a fan of midwest emo now, would you?

On my end, I've been lurking since about 2014 and never thought to make an account until now. What I can say, is that most people on this site do in fact have a desk job, and while that makes one feel a certain way, just know that I work blue collar jobs. It's also that I've noticed the older posters here especially have affluence to them, though it wouldn't be surprise me to think the average poster in general in the last few years is similar. So the guy you're replying to may be onto something when it comes down to experience. It's easy to say someone should take more risks in Jeff's position, which I do agree with, but having a family on the line changes everything. It's why I recommend people to get started in gamedev when they don't have that going on, and preferably from a young age. T. me.

I really wish people got more into the notion that it's possible to hold multiple viewpoints at the same time, rather than argue back and forth only to see that the answer you go to sleep at night with was right there all along: That you're all right, that everyone here brings something true to the table, while displaying obvious limitations. Lego set construct the true points, and voila. There you go. No need to go back and forth about the downsides when all you have to do is form a working plan with what works and what doesn't.

I've often heard in the past of Jeff insisting that he'd take more risks if someone paid him. His whole risk fear makes little sense when you consider that he can easily just work with a publisher on one or two games, he wouldn't even need to do it with all of his games hereafter. For someone with such a good GDC that you posted in this thread that I've watched a million times and got inspired by, he sure doesn't seem to grab opportunity like he used to, and it makes one ask "How much of this is due to family, and how much of this is a fear that he peaked a long time ago in risktaking endeavors?"

You're also right, yourself. I highly doubt anybody who's stupid enough to buy skins for guns in Valorant is smart or patient enough to play any of Vogel's games. So Jeff's clearly looking at the wrong areas for him to improve in upon, unless he plans on selling Geneforge Saga skins for weapons in Exile's re-re-re-re-master.

If I were him, I'd just put my games on sale more often. See from there how it goes. I'd do other things too like work on my drawing skills, and other components to make an original experience unlike the asset flip 90's openart.com style he's going on, but then again, he is pretty damn old by now, and he may never see a return on that investment with his time until he kicks the bucket. I think he has two daughters as well, which is honestly a fucking shame seeing as how if he had a son, he could simply invest himself into him so the business keeps on going. Or at least fuck more while his old lady is still juicy so that by the time he realizes he needs a son, she isn't too old. Think of all that talent Jeff is throwing away simply because of circumstances not favoring him. Who was that one british king again? King Henry? The guy who kept having daughters. It's like that.

What we can all learn from this, is -
1. You can hold multiple viewpoints at the same time, even contradicting ones, and work with it
2. Work on your skills before it gets too hard to justify.
3. Midwest emo is a good music genre
4. Jeff is old and needs a T injection.
5. Jeff should get a publisher, start his new endeavors dipping into risk that way.
6. Secure waifu from a young age, get them sold on your life thereafter
7. If you have a daughter, have a son. Balance that shit out, otherwise you'll be finding yourself taking more business trips just to avoid the zoomer decline you gotta hear when she turns 13, at least if you have a son, you can balance that shit out and show him how to make sick death animations while pretending to care about whatever trash influencer your daughter is into. If you keep having daughters, keep on fucking, it don't matter, don't stop until there's another stench of T in the house. If you're a self employed person like Jeff, you don't have the excuse that you can't take proper care of them. You're home all the time, what's it matter between the amount before it hits 4-5 kids in the house if you're always home anyway? Create. Your. Living. Legacy.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

Technical thingies aside, players in these times were not braindead zoomers and most of them would never bought $70 cute guns for Doom.

Bullshit, D!ZONE would like to have a word with you.

I had the H!Zone and probably one of the D!ZONEs discs, and it was not "cute guns".

D!ZONE - 75 levels for Doom and Doom II
D!ZONE 150 - 150 levels for Doom and Doom II
D!ZONE 2 - 150 levels for Doom and Doom II (some releases had 1,000 levels for Doom and Doom II)
D!ZONE 2 150 - 150 levels
D!ZONE Collector's Edition - 900 levels for Doom and Doom II (2,000 levels for Doom and The Ultimate Doom in the Macintosh version)
D!ZONE 3 - 1,000 levels for Doom and Doom II
D!ZONE Gold - 3,000 levels for Doom and Doom II
There was also D!MATCH, a collection of 500 levels for Doom and Doom II designed specifically for deathmatch.

Point being it was hard core trash - packages of freely available wads and garbage maps. Did you ever play those packs? They were atrocious. And people ate that shit up.

$70 for cute guns is on par with $70 for extremely shitty levels. If ID had released gun skins those same people would have bought that shit.

See Also: Quake-Xmen total conversion. X-Men skins on Quake. People bought that shit.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

At the end of the day the guy is successful - he might be able to make far more money by charging less, but that would require him to take a risk and go against his gut and what's worked for years and years.

It's very easy to play couch quarterback and say this guy should be ballsier with his pricing - but are y'all entrepreneurs going out and making baller money moves all the time, or are you working a desk job like the majority here. Once it's your money and your family on the line it's not easy to take those risks. If it was easy, there'd be a hell of a lot more success stories.

I hear what you're saying. I think that way sometimes too. But then I catch myself. Imagining everyone here is a desk jockey is naive at best. Perhaps it's true. Maybe you know something more about the many people that frequent here than I do. Can't say I pay much attention to non game related conversation. I am not allowed in those forums yet regardless. What I do know is that I value others opinions not based on what success or achievements in life I perceive them to have based on my own success or lack thereof in life as you might do, but what they say at the moment, wether I agree or disagree, and if they frequently say things that are asinine. At the end of the day we are on a gaming forum talking about games. Their design, their graphics, gameplay, music, sound, and sometime economics of games. I don't feel one needs to be a musician to appreciate good music, to understand musical form. Nor do I feel someone has to be a game developer to know good game design. People talk games. And even though your opinion feels off to me, I appreciate that you gave me something to think about.

I linked a video at the top of this page. It's timestamped. He lost a bit of my respect saying that. Then Queen's Wish came out, and he lost a bit more. Now he rambles about getting old, getting old, getting old, and microtransactions, and Elden Ring, and microtransactions. His audience, in my opinion are not the ones who will be playing Apex Legends, Fortnite, Valorant and spending big money though. I could be wrong. But as you stated, he has been successful in his own way. He obviously has some very mixed feelings about his success though, if you have taken the time to read his blog posts and watch his speaking engagements. I enjoy when Infinitron posts these updates, dont get me wrong. I have paid for and played many of his games over the years. Some real quality stuff mixed in with some stinkers. I know that Queen's Wish 2 will not be something I spend my time playing though. And I will continue to think that his current ramblings about charging 25 dollars instead of 20 are a bit misguided. Now excuse me, I have a 9-5 desk job I have to wake up for tomorrow.

Desk job, blue collar job, whatever job - point is that unless people here are taking big risks with their income, then it's silly to act as if it's so obvious that that Vogel should charge $3 a game, and he'll see a huge bump on his sales, and that he's a fool for not doing it. It's not comparable to criticism of music, game design, etc. You can say, "I don't do X doesn't mean I can't criticize X" when it's something that takes a time investment to learn to do - but every single person in existence deals with money in their personal life. And the argument of "Make a ballsy risk with your money it'll pay off!" that people make here is applicable to each and every one of us. So - if you're not making the same level of ballsy money moves, but are instead doing the traditional - put some money in the bank, make safe investments - then your criticism being so absolutist is silly.

 

[AdolfSatan]

I'm a freelancer and I've done some risky moves like putting work aside for a long period to focus on a project that, instead of paying dividends once done, would rake in its profits in the form of reputation to raise my asking price, and that kinda stuff.
Am I allowed to tell Jeff he needs to inject T?