Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

[Koschey]

I have genuine arachnophobia and the only game that ever made it kick in is Northern Journey.

Eight legs, yet no feet...a truly nightmarish combination.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

funny how there are "more games" yet there hasn't been an uptick in good games actually released

If there are, say, 50x more games released annually now than in 1992 then why aren't there 50x as many good games released? Shouldn't we be swimming in good games now?

I'll even handicap myself and limit myself solely to Amiga. Let's compare good games 1991 to 2021.

1991 Amiga good games: Alien Breed, Another World, Eye of the Beholder, Lemmings, Secret of Monkey Island, Populous 2, Bard's Tale 3, Death Knights of Krynn, King's Quest 5, Moonstone: A Hard Days Knight, Utopia

2021 good games: uhhhh....?
Resident Evil Village & Guardians of the Galaxy appear to be the only notable releases that have a positive user score on Metacritic. The Gothic mod seems to be well received.

The ratio of good games : total games has taken a nosedive.

Good Amiga-original games released in 1991:

• Lemmings
• Another World
  
• Populous II
• Alien Breed
• Amnios
• Blade Warrior
• Carcharodon
• Fate: Gates of Dawn
• First Samurai
  
• Hunter
• Moonstone
  
• Wayne Gretzky Hockey II
• Oh No! More Lemmings

Though for 2021, there are at least five good (not great) games:

• Black Book
  
• Praey for the Gods
• Solasta
• Urtuk
• Wildermyth

Of course, Lemmings, Another World, and Populous II are all-time classics, and we could add Civilization and probably at least two more IBM PC original releases from 1991, whereas there doesn't seem to have been any release of this caliber in 2021.

 

[Lord_Potato]

funny how there are "more games" yet there hasn't been an uptick in good games actually released

If there are, say, 50x more games released annually now than in 1992 then why aren't there 50x as many good games released? Shouldn't we be swimming in good games now?

I'll even handicap myself and limit myself solely to Amiga. Let's compare good games 1991 to 2021.

1991 Amiga good games: Alien Breed, Another World, Eye of the Beholder, Lemmings, Secret of Monkey Island, Populous 2, Bard's Tale 3, Death Knights of Krynn, King's Quest 5, Moonstone: A Hard Days Knight, Utopia

2021 good games: uhhhh....?
Resident Evil Village & Guardians of the Galaxy appear to be the only notable releases that have a positive user score on Metacritic. The Gothic mod seems to be well received.

The ratio of good games : total games has taken a nosedive.

Good Amiga-original games released in 1991:

• Lemmings
• Another World
  
• Populous II
• Alien Breed
• Amnios
• Blade Warrior
• Carcharodon
• Fate: Gates of Dawn
• First Samurai
  
• Hunter
• Moonstone
  
• Wayne Gretzky Hockey II
• Oh No! More Lemmings

Though for 2021, there are at least five good (not great) games:

• Black Book
  
• Praey for the Gods
• Solasta
• Urtuk
• Wildermyth

Of course, Lemmings, Another World, and Populous II are all-time classics, and we could add Civilization and probably at least two more IBM PC original releases from 1991, whereas there doesn't seem to have been any release of this caliber in 2021.

You are comparing a number of good games for Amiga in 1991 with a number of good RPGs for PC in 2021. I am sure there were numerous quality games in other genres in 2021 (genres that I simply do not follow anymore because gaming became too vast for one person to enjoy them all).

 

[felipepepe]

Also, the context is really different. Loop Hero emulated the Amiga aesthetic, if had been released in 1991 for sure it would be on everyone's "Best Amiga games" list. In 2021, might not even make it into the Top 10 of the year.

Same for something like Pathfinder, Solasta or ATOM. Tech aside, if these games had come out in the 2000s, they would easily have been celebrated classics. The bar is much higher for the games that come later, especially when there's a lot of competition.

 

[Narushima]

"Save the Lemmings and... break the wall"???

 

[JarlFrank]

I think he's depressed.

I'd also be depressed if I spent the last decade chucking out remakes of remakes that seem to usually only get worse with each iteration, but he's only got himself to blame for that.

He has become so risk-averse that he doesn't even try making something original at this point, he only relies on remakes and his new games are formulaic paint-by-numbers affairs that are a mere shadow of his earlier works.

I wager he doesn't get to do much fun stuff in his free time, either, but sticks with safe activities that don't pose any risk to his health and don't cost too much money to do.

He seems to have fallen into the trap of valuing safety and stability above everything else to the point that there's nothing exciting left in his life.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Also, the context is really different. Loop Hero emulated the Amiga aesthetic, if had been released in 1991 for sure it would be on everyone's "Best Amiga games" list. In 2021, might not even make it into the Top 10 of the year.

Same for something like Pathfinder, Solasta or ATOM. Tech aside, if these games had come out in the 2000s, they would easily have been celebrated classics. The bar is much higher for the games that come later, especially when there's a lot of competition.

Even when you account for all of this, there's still not as many good 2021 games as Amiga had in 1991. This is despite there being about 30-50x more games released overall.
The quality of games has taken a nosedive.

 

[BlackGoat]

This dude should spend less time writing these shitty blog posts and volunteer at a soup kitchen instead

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Well, he could have made endless add-on scenario modules for each game and cashed in. Worse, he could have made a bunch of add-on random generation scenarios.

Some people enjoyed the idea of the continuing saga with same party or same base game construction but different game. As to creating endless scenarios, the dude who should have got sued for his wizardry 1 and ultima III modules for the apple comes to mind. I wanted more Wizard's Crown, Shard of Spring, Bardstale, Phantasie and Questron Games (Ultima 3-5s as well). Sequels helped.

Some games flopped completely when you look at what they wanted to accomplish (looking at you Alternate Reality series).

So Lord British tried to innovate and Jeff just stayed safe. I like the games up to a certain point. Queen Wish seems dumbed down but maybe I should give it another chance.

I really enjoy the Exile style series because of the style. That is the old flat 2D gamer in me that stems from ACS. It is no wonder I enjoyed Wyvern MMO when it came out (until it shut down).

I haven't looked at spiderweb forums or Jeff's blog so I have no clue what he plans if anything.

 

[Mortmal]

I haven't looked at spiderweb forums or Jeff's blog so I have no clue what he plans if anything.

What he plans is queen wish with a bit more options if you read the kickstarter news , oh nothing wild dont worry , it's good ol'jeff, burned out and risk averse.

 

[Modron]

What he plans is queen wish with a bit more options if you read the kickstarter news , oh nothing wild dont worry , it's good ol'jeff, burned out and risk averse.

Who knows maybe he will make a good game after a terribad start at making a new universe like he did with Avadon 2 coming off the bland Avadon 1.

 

[Mortmal]

What he plans is queen wish with a bit more options if you read the kickstarter news , oh nothing wild dont worry , it's good ol'jeff, burned out and risk averse.

Who knows maybe he will make a good game after a terribad start at making a new universe like he did with Avadon 2 coming off the bland Avadon 1.

It will be good enough and entertaining, but it wil never be deeper than his first games.No evolution that way ever.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I don't bother with Vogel KS. In fact... I don't bother with crpgs that aren't put up for sale. Only KS I go after are some books for pnp rpgs and pdfs.

 

[Gandalf]

Which of the newest Vogel's games/remakes are worth checking out?

 

[Acrux]

How new? The newest Geneforge is pretty good, but that's built off of a really good base.

The Avernum remakes are average to above average. The Avadon games are less good.

I won't discuss Queen's Wish.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

She WISHES you would.

 

[Serus]

I think he's depressed.

I'd also be depressed if I spent the last decade chucking out remakes of remakes that seem to usually only get worse with each iteration, but he's only got himself to blame for that.

He has become so risk-averse that he doesn't even try making something original at this point, he only relies on remakes and his new games are formulaic paint-by-numbers affairs that are a mere shadow of his earlier works.

I wager he doesn't get to do much fun stuff in his free time, either, but sticks with safe activities that don't pose any risk to his health and don't cost too much money to do.

He seems to have fallen into the trap of valuing safety and stability above everything else to the point that there's nothing exciting left in his life.

Jarl, it is called "age". Nothing more, nothing less. The pre-final boss of everything and everyone.

 

[Modron]

Jarl, it is called "age". Nothing more, nothing less. The pre-final boss of everything and everyone.

Reminder that Vogel is younger than Crispy, he's just been doing the old man routine since his early 20s.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Who's the final boss? (Almost typed funeral)

 

[PorkaMorka]

He's only 51, it's not mandatory to be this much of a downer at 51.

He might need some kind of medication.

 

[gaussgunner]

ITT Jeff Vogel tells them kids to GET OFF HIS LAWN.

His problem is only old fucks play his games these days, no kid is interested to be on his lawn

I've seen little girls play his games, lol

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Ewwwwwww....

This is getting old man creepy (albeit he's only about 4 years older than me.). Still creepy.

 

[BlackGoat]

He's only 51?? lol

 

[Moaning_Clock]

Yeah, he looks a bit older. Always thought he's around 60. I wonder how long he will be working - maybe until he's actually 60? 2019 Queen's Wish, 2021 Geneforge, 2022 Queen's Wish 2, 2024 Geneforge 2, 2025 Queen's Wish 3 and then the rest of the Geneforge games. Did he say something about other games he wants to remake?

Although he's critized widely on the codex as a developer without flashy graphics he always gave me hope! Still impressed how long his studio has been going.

 

[Tyranicon]

I wonder how long he will be working - maybe until he's actually 60?

IIRC, he said something wanting to make one more great original game series before hanging up his hat.

So.... if codex opinion is anything to go by, he'll be working for a while.

Although he's critized widely on the codex as a developer without flashy graphics he always gave me hope! Still impressed how long his studio has been going.

I think a lot of the criticism here is fair but still friendly. The general consensus seems to be that he doesn't take risks and will just keep remaking the same games to his core fanbase... which is probably all he needs for retirement.

As a dev, I agree that he's an inspiration. Vogel seems to be a pretty chill guy and he has a successful business model.

I just wish he'd stop using the same clipart aesthetic.