Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
News Content Gallery About Donate Discord Contact
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
8,361
funny how there are "more games" yet there hasn't been an uptick in good games actually released

If there are, say, 50x more games released annually now than in 1992 then why aren't there 50x as many good games released? Shouldn't we be swimming in good games now?
I'll even handicap myself and limit myself solely to Amiga. Let's compare good games 1991 to 2021.

1991 Amiga good games: Alien Breed, Another World, Eye of the Beholder, Lemmings, Secret of Monkey Island, Populous 2, Bard's Tale 3, Death Knights of Krynn, King's Quest 5, Moonstone: A Hard Days Knight, Utopia

2021 good games: uhhhh....?
Resident Evil Village & Guardians of the Galaxy appear to be the only notable releases that have a positive user score on Metacritic. The Gothic mod seems to be well received.

The ratio of good games : total games has taken a nosedive.
Good Amiga-original games released in 1991:
  • Lemmings
  • Another World
  • Populous II
  • Alien Breed
  • Amnios
  • Blade Warrior
  • Carcharodon
  • Fate: Gates of Dawn
  • First Samurai
  • Hunter
  • Moonstone
  • Wayne Gretzky Hockey II
  • Oh No! More Lemmings
Though for 2021, there are at least five good (not great) games:
  • Black Book
  • Praey for the Gods
  • Solasta
  • Urtuk
  • Wildermyth
Of course, Lemmings, Another World, and Populous II are all-time classics, and we could add Civilization and probably at least two more IBM PC original releases from 1991, whereas there doesn't seem to have been any release of this caliber in 2021.

6hWMZRl.png
 

Lord_Potato

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Messages
3,463
Location
Free City of Warsaw
funny how there are "more games" yet there hasn't been an uptick in good games actually released

If there are, say, 50x more games released annually now than in 1992 then why aren't there 50x as many good games released? Shouldn't we be swimming in good games now?
I'll even handicap myself and limit myself solely to Amiga. Let's compare good games 1991 to 2021.

1991 Amiga good games: Alien Breed, Another World, Eye of the Beholder, Lemmings, Secret of Monkey Island, Populous 2, Bard's Tale 3, Death Knights of Krynn, King's Quest 5, Moonstone: A Hard Days Knight, Utopia

2021 good games: uhhhh....?
Resident Evil Village & Guardians of the Galaxy appear to be the only notable releases that have a positive user score on Metacritic. The Gothic mod seems to be well received.

The ratio of good games : total games has taken a nosedive.
Good Amiga-original games released in 1991:
  • Lemmings
  • Another World
  • Populous II
  • Alien Breed
  • Amnios
  • Blade Warrior
  • Carcharodon
  • Fate: Gates of Dawn
  • First Samurai
  • Hunter
  • Moonstone
  • Wayne Gretzky Hockey II
  • Oh No! More Lemmings
Though for 2021, there are at least five good (not great) games:
  • Black Book
  • Praey for the Gods
  • Solasta
  • Urtuk
  • Wildermyth
Of course, Lemmings, Another World, and Populous II are all-time classics, and we could add Civilization and probably at least two more IBM PC original releases from 1991, whereas there doesn't seem to have been any release of this caliber in 2021.

6hWMZRl.png

You are comparing a number of good games for Amiga in 1991 with a number of good RPGs for PC in 2021. I am sure there were numerous quality games in other genres in 2021 (genres that I simply do not follow anymore because gaming became too vast for one person to enjoy them all).
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,100
Location
Terra da Garoa
Also, the context is really different. Loop Hero emulated the Amiga aesthetic, if had been released in 1991 for sure it would be on everyone's "Best Amiga games" list. In 2021, might not even make it into the Top 10 of the year.

Same for something like Pathfinder, Solasta or ATOM. Tech aside, if these games had come out in the 2000s, they would easily have been celebrated classics. The bar is much higher for the games that come later, especially when there's a lot of competition.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
29,937
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
I think he's depressed.
I'd also be depressed if I spent the last decade chucking out remakes of remakes that seem to usually only get worse with each iteration, but he's only got himself to blame for that.

He has become so risk-averse that he doesn't even try making something original at this point, he only relies on remakes and his new games are formulaic paint-by-numbers affairs that are a mere shadow of his earlier works.

I wager he doesn't get to do much fun stuff in his free time, either, but sticks with safe activities that don't pose any risk to his health and don't cost too much money to do.

He seems to have fallen into the trap of valuing safety and stability above everything else to the point that there's nothing exciting left in his life.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
42,675
Also, the context is really different. Loop Hero emulated the Amiga aesthetic, if had been released in 1991 for sure it would be on everyone's "Best Amiga games" list. In 2021, might not even make it into the Top 10 of the year.

Same for something like Pathfinder, Solasta or ATOM. Tech aside, if these games had come out in the 2000s, they would easily have been celebrated classics. The bar is much higher for the games that come later, especially when there's a lot of competition.
Even when you account for all of this, there's still not as many good 2021 games as Amiga had in 1991. This is despite there being about 30-50x more games released overall.
The quality of games has taken a nosedive.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
7,439
Well, he could have made endless add-on scenario modules for each game and cashed in. Worse, he could have made a bunch of add-on random generation scenarios.

Some people enjoyed the idea of the continuing saga with same party or same base game construction but different game. As to creating endless scenarios, the dude who should have got sued for his wizardry 1 and ultima III modules for the apple comes to mind. I wanted more Wizard's Crown, Shard of Spring, Bardstale, Phantasie and Questron Games (Ultima 3-5s as well). Sequels helped.

Some games flopped completely when you look at what they wanted to accomplish (looking at you Alternate Reality series).

So Lord British tried to innovate and Jeff just stayed safe. I like the games up to a certain point. Queen Wish seems dumbed down but maybe I should give it another chance.

I really enjoy the Exile style series because of the style. That is the old flat 2D gamer in me that stems from ACS. It is no wonder I enjoyed Wyvern MMO when it came out (until it shut down).

I haven't looked at spiderweb forums or Jeff's blog so I have no clue what he plans if anything.
 
Last edited:

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
7,823
I haven't looked at spiderweb forums or Jeff's blog so I have no clue what he plans if anything.
What he plans is queen wish with a bit more options if you read the kickstarter news , oh nothing wild dont worry , it's good ol'jeff, burned out and risk averse.
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,238
What he plans is queen wish with a bit more options if you read the kickstarter news , oh nothing wild dont worry , it's good ol'jeff, burned out and risk averse.
Who knows maybe he will make a good game after a terribad start at making a new universe like he did with Avadon 2 coming off the bland Avadon 1.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
7,823
What he plans is queen wish with a bit more options if you read the kickstarter news , oh nothing wild dont worry , it's good ol'jeff, burned out and risk averse.
Who knows maybe he will make a good game after a terribad start at making a new universe like he did with Avadon 2 coming off the bland Avadon 1.
It will be good enough and entertaining, but it wil never be deeper than his first games.No evolution that way ever.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
7,439
I don't bother with Vogel KS. In fact... I don't bother with crpgs that aren't put up for sale. Only KS I go after are some books for pnp rpgs and pdfs.
 

Acrux

Prophet
Joined
Jul 1, 2019
Messages
773
How new? The newest Geneforge is pretty good, but that's built off of a really good base.

The Avernum remakes are average to above average. The Avadon games are less good.

I won't discuss Queen's Wish.
 

Serus

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
5,546
Location
Small but great planet of Potatohole
I think he's depressed.
I'd also be depressed if I spent the last decade chucking out remakes of remakes that seem to usually only get worse with each iteration, but he's only got himself to blame for that.

He has become so risk-averse that he doesn't even try making something original at this point, he only relies on remakes and his new games are formulaic paint-by-numbers affairs that are a mere shadow of his earlier works.

I wager he doesn't get to do much fun stuff in his free time, either, but sticks with safe activities that don't pose any risk to his health and don't cost too much money to do.

He seems to have fallen into the trap of valuing safety and stability above everything else to the point that there's nothing exciting left in his life.
Jarl, it is called "age". Nothing more, nothing less. The pre-final boss of everything and everyone.
 

Moaning_Clock

SmokeSomeFrogs
Developer
Joined
Feb 7, 2021
Messages
444
Yeah, he looks a bit older. Always thought he's around 60. I wonder how long he will be working - maybe until he's actually 60? 2019 Queen's Wish, 2021 Geneforge, 2022 Queen's Wish 2, 2024 Geneforge 2, 2025 Queen's Wish 3 and then the rest of the Geneforge games. Did he say something about other games he wants to remake?

Although he's critized widely on the codex as a developer without flashy graphics he always gave me hope! Still impressed how long his studio has been going. +M
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
2,352
I wonder how long he will be working - maybe until he's actually 60?

IIRC, he said something wanting to make one more great original game series before hanging up his hat.

So.... if codex opinion is anything to go by, he'll be working for a while.

Although he's critized widely on the codex as a developer without flashy graphics he always gave me hope! Still impressed how long his studio has been going. +M

I think a lot of the criticism here is fair but still friendly. The general consensus seems to be that he doesn't take risks and will just keep remaking the same games to his core fanbase... which is probably all he needs for retirement.

As a dev, I agree that he's an inspiration. Vogel seems to be a pretty chill guy and he has a successful business model.

I just wish he'd stop using the same clipart aesthetic.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Top Bottom