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RTS should focus more on single-player campaigns, lore-heavy settings

Louis_Cypher

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I played the remaster of Command and Conquer last year, and enjoyed it a lot. The Brotherhood of Nod are just a really interesting concept; something like an archetypal messianic cult like Aum Shinrikyo or Jonestown, but with a global army and vision. I haven't played a C&C game for decades. The campaign was really interesting, imaginative, and contained a sense of creative freedom. I was looking at some info given out by someone, perhaps a Blizzard rep; they found that out of their RTS players, something like 80% enjoy the story, and never bother with multiplayer. Bliz or whoever wanted to convert more singleplayer-players into multiplayer-players. I don't really find PvP that interesting, I just liked things like C&C or Age of Empires mainly for these interesting sci-fi or historical settings. So, maybe an old take, but I think the focus on multiplayer in RTS was a mistake from a commercial point of view, as these interesting mission briefings and cutscenes were driving a lot of the fun. It also means everything must be balanced for MP, and you can't have assymetry.
 

Louis_Cypher

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RTS genre is dead and you expect something out of new releases, I have some bad news for you.
Maybe, maybe not. I haven't been following things for a few years (which means a lot of releases are new to me; feels like quite a lot has built up and should last me years). There is some C&C clone called Tempest Rising on it's way apprently, space RTS games, Total Annihilation knockoffs and stuff.
 

Stormcrowfleet

Aeon & Star Interactive
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I like it in Red Alert where you could select your missions, or when you came back to the same map with the same base you left last time. This was genious and I don't think there's enough of that. Although I didn't like the game overall, SC2 had some good ideas for RTS campaign, such as having optional missions unlocking new units and technology, so that you could effectively "strategize" over the long term. These two things together could be really cool if done well in a lore-heavy campaign. Or introduce it in a semi-lore campaign, like Dawn of War Soulstorm campaign style.
 
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I agree. Multiplayer RTS and then MOBAs which took over the same space are more like sports. That can be enjoyable but it does nothing for single player players, and there is a lot of demand for single player RTS games, like Age of Empires 2, Starcraft, Warhammer 40000k Dawn of War, Stronghold, and many others.

The problem was, the RTS genre never evolved. They never really managed to incorporate RPG elements successfully into RTS (Warcraft 3 tried in a very shallow way, there was also Warlords Battlecry and Spellforce but none of these did it well). They also never built on the kind of complex building and supply chain stuff that Stronghold introduced.
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
uTKLFQW.png


I played the remaster of Command and Conquer last year, and enjoyed it a lot. The Brotherhood of Nod are just a really interesting concept; something like an archetypal messianic cult like Aum Shinrikyo or Jonestown, but with a global army and vision. I haven't played a C&C game for decades. The campaign was really interesting, imaginative, and contained a sense of creative freedom. I was looking at some info given out by someone, perhaps a Blizzard rep; they found that out of their RTS players, something like 80% enjoy the story, and never bother with multiplayer. Bliz or whoever wanted to convert more singleplayer-players into multiplayer-players. I don't really find PvP that interesting, I just liked things like C&C or Age of Empires mainly for these interesting sci-fi or historical settings. So, maybe an old take, but I think the focus on multiplayer in RTS was a mistake from a commercial point of view, as these interesting mission briefings and cutscenes were driving a lot of the fun. It also means everything must be balanced for MP, and you can't have assymetry.
Yes! Man, I miss the C&C universe. There's just something about it, it's cheesy, but it still comes across as having a semi-serious tone from time to time. The concept of Tiberium is great too - how it slowly devastates the world and eats it up, but is still considered a highly useful source of power. I even bought the book that is based on Tiberium Wars. It's not a masterpiece, but it's a fun read about a GDI elite soldier who gets to kill a lot of Nod. I miss when games build these great worlds that get you to actually seek out more information.

Here is a great video about Tiberium:

 

H. P. Lovecraft's Cat

SumDrunkCat
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I've seen and played more singleplayer campaign RTS games than not-ones. I didn't realize there was a scarcity of them. Even the big multiplayer ones I know of have campaigns and lore. Referencing StarCraft and Warcraft.
 

Lucumo

Educated
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May 9, 2021
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The problem was, the RTS genre never evolved. They never really managed to incorporate RPG elements successfully into RTS (Warcraft 3 tried in a very shallow way, there was also Warlords Battlecry and Spellforce but none of these did it well).
Eh, I wouldn't lump Spellforce in with the other two, as it was actually an RPG/RTS hybrid (at least the first title + expansions were, never played the sequel due to weird changes which I didn't like). It also had cooperative multiplayer maps which was pretty great.
 

Harthwain

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I was looking at some info given out by someone, perhaps a Blizzard rep; they found that out of their RTS players, something like 80% enjoy the story, and never bother with multiplayer.
rating_citation.png


Starcraft 1 and Warcraft 3 were both big multiplayer titles (as well as Diablo 2) and they did really well. They also had strong campaigns, but it only proves it doesn't have to be either or type of deal. I immensely Emperor: Battle for Dune as a singleplayer experience, while playing a lot of multiplayer games in Starcraft 1 and Warcraft 3.

So, maybe an old take, but I think the focus on multiplayer in RTS was a mistake from a commercial point of view, as these interesting mission briefings and cutscenes were driving a lot of the fun.
Yes, having a strong campaign is great for an RTS. But so is a good multiplayer, because with good multiplayer the game can keep being active for a very long time, even when the campaign itself is long spent.

It also means everything must be balanced for MP, and you can't have assymetry.
Wrong. Look at Starcraft 1 or Warcraft 3 (both of which had very distinct races to play in a multiplayer). It is not about having assymetry. It is about how you handle it.
 

Ba'al

Scholar
Joined
Jun 26, 2016
Messages
169
Most RTS players play single player (me included) and a campaign is important, but I'm surprised nobody mentioned skirmish mode. It's why I played more Stronghold Crusader than Stronghold and why I played more Red Alert than Tiberium Dawn. You could probably make a multiplayer focused RTS without a campaign and just add AI opponents to the main "competitive" mode and get the casual playerbase that way. On the topic of multiplayer focused: if you want a large competitive playerbase you need to have mechanisms in place so that bad players can win and good players can lose. The easiest way to do that is team games - bad players get carried, good players have someone to blame for losses other than themselves. There's also the general variance/bullshit team games bring but it's game specific, other than the generic 2v1 "being focused is unfair". I'd say that it's possible to make a multiplayer RTS with casual appeal but it's never going to happen if sweaty 1v1 is the main game mode.
 

Louis_Cypher

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I agree. Multiplayer RTS and then MOBAs which took over the same space are more like sports. That can be enjoyable but it does nothing for single player players, and there is a lot of demand for single player RTS games, like Age of Empires 2, Starcraft, Warhammer 40000k Dawn of War, Stronghold, and many others.
RTS is an easy genre to enjoy, at any level, as a beginner or whatever. You and I know C&C, AoE, WC, SC, etc, are enjoyable as casual single-player games, that children can just pick them up; because thats what people did in the 1990s, before the great amnesia in gaming. Most multiplayer matches are like 'drunken brawls' as someone put it, with no skill involved. I had no clue as a kid even about what unit countered what, etc, never mind anything deep.

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There is apparently a perception however, probably born of eSports clips, plus urban tales of how Starcraft was played in Korea, that RTS is a super-hardcore-only genre. People like myself never once bothered to play in a hyper-competetive way; that's just some fringe thing, probably far less than 1% of paying players, but the perception is apparently that 100-APM to 400-APM pros are the normal skillset, at least for online if not SP. In the 1990s we just fucked around. The general casual gamer now apparently looks upon RTS as a formiddable genre, and think that it requires huge management skills and inhuman APM. To beat the AI, you probably don't need any of that, or to play normal multiplayer, maybe just a few minor deeper skills, like knowing build order (which I agree isn't exactly transparent to players). It's a pretty far out notion to us who grew up in the 1990s, to think you have to play like a Korean Starcraft pro, but I can see how a younger person might develop such an illusion.



So Palikka posted a video above, where I must have seen those demographic stats, citing that 80% never convert to multiplayer, and arguing that most time should therefore be devoted to a good campaign. What I found really resonated to me, is that the guy argues that at some point in RTS history, the genre forgot that it was always primarily a single-player driven thing, for single-player fans. That not creating a beautiful single-player world, companies shoot themselves in the foot. (Like with some other gaming genres).

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Westwood knocked it out of the park with their FMVs, their world-building, a setting you wanted to learn about in your own time. After that, I personally think I noticed a lot of RTS games paying less attention to single-player, like the video says. Some of them were at least given less emphasis, rather than an operatic war-story.
I think the clip might be inside that video someone Palikka above, and I think they were specifically talking about Starcraft 2, in that particular case. 4:22 mark on the video. He says that they see about 80% play the campaign, but only 20% "stick around for hardcore multiplayer". Blizzard has a free-to-play model for Starcraft, where anyone can install it, but to get certain features requires a payment. I think the remastered graphics for Starcraft 1 are behind the paywall, but the game is otherwise free.
 

Dr Skeleton

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Nov 9, 2014
Messages
817
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I was looking at some info given out by someone, perhaps a Blizzard rep; they found that out of their RTS players, something like 80% enjoy the story, and never bother with multiplayer.
rating_citation.png


Starcraft 1 and Warcraft 3 were both big multiplayer titles (as well as Diablo 2) and they did really well. They also had strong campaigns, but it only proves it doesn't have to be either or type of deal. I immensely Emperor: Battle for Dune as a singleplayer experience, while playing a lot of multiplayer games in Starcraft 1 and Warcraft 3.
I wish I still had it somewhere, but I remember reading an analysis of Diablo 2 SP vs MP specifically, and the conclusion was that comparing D2 sales vs how many people played MP on Battlenet was that only a small fraction bought the game to play in MP. Granted, it was written from the perspective of someone arguing that "balancing" gameplay and item drops for online players who trade items, traders and botters was a mistake, and I don't think there's any reliable data of how many players ever logged in / regularly played MP over the years, but I believe it's more or less accurate. From anecdotal evidence, Diablo 2 was super popular, but most people I know only played it SP with occasional co-op games outside of Bnet, maybe tried online for a while, but rarely for long. The people who were really hardcore into MP ladder, trading, PvP and all that stuff were there, but comparatively few. That part of the player base was simply much more involved and vocal online, so they were more visible to the devs and from an outsider and journalist perspective, similarly to competitive RTS players as the guy in the video talks about:
Here's a video talking about this:

These successful "big multiplayer" games were still mostly played SP or very casual/custom games MP, they just had good MP support and a small hardcore online community. The perception of them people had then and still have today is skewed. If you ask someone who only vaguely knows Diablo 2 by reputation how the game is played they might tell you it's about doing "runs" for high level runes and shit, when that wasn't how the majority played the game. Hell, I remember even Diablo 1 having this weird reputation in gaming press back in the day that online MP was the best thing ever and a big part of the game, when most people didn't have an Internet connection or connection good enough to play it online even if they wanted.
 
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Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I usually don't complete RTS campaigns, because they usually end up feeling like a very long tutorial for the skirmish/MP mode in which you play with 25-50% of the roster/techs/buildings.
The only RTS campaign I liked was Dawn of War: Dark Crusade, because it didn't feel so limited. I ended up playing most of them in multiplayer because of that.
I'd rather have a competent skirmish AI than SP campaigns for RTS, except maybe for the Spellforce series and similar RPGish RTS.
 

ind33d

Educated
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Actually, one of the only good uses for "AI" would be to talk to it and convert your strategy into APM for Starcraft as an accessibility feature (Computer, do a Zerg Rush), but they'll probably just keep using it to make Aragorn black.
 

Louis_Cypher

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Just as an aside, I think one of the videos above mentioned that Age of Empires 2, a 25 year old game, still gets consistent players today. A big appeal of that game was toward the absolute ton of single-player campaigns, and even the 'teaching/learning' aspect of how it highlighted important historical figures. They continued to add single-player campaigns even to the HD editions.



EDIT: Here is a chart that video above did showing how people rated different things in importance 1 to 5. Campaign easily wins. Esports was only ranked 5 by 7%.

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Some stats:
  • - Starcraft 2 pulls in an insane 2 million players despite beign 7 years old (at the time of his video).
I can't find where I saw it, but there was interesting stats on the player counts for stuff like Age of Empires, showing stready player base if I remember right.
 
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Jonathan "Zee Nekomimi

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Decline began when they started catering to the competitive scene in south korea (starcraft case study) and moba. Couple with that the desire to bring more casual players to the genre with simplification of gameplay and features and u have the poop we got today.
 
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Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
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Games were better when they didn't take themselves too seriously. Made by small teams, basically just a collective of hobbyists who were passionate about really nerdy things most people don't care about.

Now games are products produced by megacorps made by hundreds of faceless corpo drones.

There's really no secret in why games have declined.
 

Humanophage

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Although I like the videos and silly plots, I don't typically play campaigns in strategy games. I just play the maps, preferably the non-random ones. Campaigns do indeed feel like long tutorials with obnoxious limitations that make the games too puzzle-like and not strategic enough. This goes for TBS as well. Late campaign or unusual missions can be OK. Transferable units a la Warlords Battlecry can spice things up a bit. Another exception are the grand campaigns without a strict sequence of missions a la Rome: Total War, but they're really a very different type.

I wouldn't call the disappearance of campaigns particular decline. If anything, strategies are one of the purest PC genres. More contaminated genres like FPS moved in the direction of inserting plot and cinematics thanks to the influence of consoles and being oriented towards playing on the TV screen. Overstressing plot could have happened to strategies too, but they mercifully avoided this path.
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Games were better when they didn't take themselves too seriously. Made by small teams, basically just a collective of hobbyists who were passionate about really nerdy things most people don't care about.

Now games are products produced by megacorps made by hundreds of faceless corpo drones.

There's really no secret in why games have declined.
They don't take them seriously now either, but unfortunately, it's all sarcastic, quippy zoomer Marvel humor.
 

Lyric Suite

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Arena shooters didn't kill single player FPS games (though an attempt was made with UT and Quake 3), so i don't see why single player RTS games couldn't work but i do think the formula would have to be rethought a little bit. As much as people prefer skirmish style maps over maps with "puzzle" elements the sad reality is that AI is never gonna measure up to a real human opponent. Something needs to be done to make up for the difference and i don't mean letting the AI cheat even more.

And no, i don't think more emphasis on plot is the solution either.

One thing that is worth pointing out is that while single player is possible in RTS games, no such thing exists in MOBAs (unless we are talking about bot matches). Perhaps the solution lies in understanding what makes RTS games different and do more of that.
 
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