Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Editorial RPG Codex Editorial: Darth Roxor on the State of RPG Writing

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,484
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
In the old days, continuity in episodic media was typically seen as something to be avoided. The classical sitcom was structured so that one could watch its episodes in any order and have no problem understanding what was going on. Thus, producers reasoned, they would avoid alienating more casual viewers and maximize ratings. Sometime around the 2000s, for reasons which I won't go into here, that began to change. Continuity and the resulting increased complexity in storytelling and worldbuilding became acceptable, even valuable as a source of potential licensing opportunities. It was around this time that fans increasingly began to use terms like "franchise" and "intellectual property". The accumulation of all this detail became known as "lore", which was to be dutifully analyzed and recorded by said fans on their favored franchises' official Wiki sites.

Although videogames have never been quite as afraid of that sort of thing as the old TV shows were, they've nevertheless undergone a similar evolution. An evolution which was however mitigated by another phenomenon - the transition from text-based to fully-animated, voice-acted storytelling which happened around the same time. Game designers were forced to learn the language of cinema, which placed natural limits on their ability to indulge themselves with lore. And then Kickstarter came, and all the barriers came down. For some, it's a new golden age of RPG writing. But for many people on our forums, the kind of writing they're seeing in these neo-oldschool RPGs isn't what they wanted at all. One of the most vocal figures in this counterreaction against modern RPG writing is distinguished Codex contributor Darth Roxor, who posted a celebrated rant about it back in 2015. The following editorial is the summary of over a year of his thoughts on the matter since then. Even if you don't agree with him on some of the specifics, I think you'll find that it's one of the finer pieces that we've published. Here's an excerpt:

The third major issue is an important one for many reasons, primarily because it helps unveil even further the incompetence and lack of creativity that sits deep inside game developers. I am referring, of course, to the shallow copying of elements from other media, which don’t really fit particularly well with video games, followed by developers hailing their products not as “games”, but as “interactive [x]” and the like. Interactive movies, books, shows and whatever other stupid fads that for some reason enjoy popularity are quite possibly the main reason why the whole video game world is stuck in place and refusing to move forward, despite the claims to the contrary that sing praises of “revolutionary new art forms”, which are supposed to be found in these pseudo-genres.

When you consider someone saying that they are making, for instance, an “interactive movie”, what does that really mean? It’s simple – “I can’t for the life of mine come up with anything original, so I’ll just take cues from other, hardly even related stuff.” Why this has been encouraged for years now is particularly puzzling when you try to turn the tables. Imagine someone saying he wants to “write a movie in a book format” or “paint a novel”. Doesn’t this sound awful or, at least, incompatible? Case in point, I read a book recently that started with the author saying, “this is the movie I’ve always wanted to write” – naturally, it’s very bad pulp sci-fi/fantasy that has been planned as a trilogy from the get-go. Every entertainment or art medium has its own qualities and characteristics that can’t work well when transplanted into another one, and I wonder when will game developers finally realise this, because representatives of other media have realised that long ago. Take, for example, this short video about Buster Keaton.

How old can we say cinematography, in the sense of long movies telling actual stories, was in Keaton’s time? Let’s say roughly 15 years. Already at that time did Keaton realise that your mute visual medium cannot function properly if based on text screens. So instead he focused on what the medium does stand for – action and visuals. We are now in 2017, video games have been around for over 35 years, they have turned into a huge industry and business, and we are still stuck with people who think that touting the hundred million billion word count in their new RPG is a good idea.

Why would it be? Because more words = more content = more gud (= more payment per word for hired hack writers, but I digress)? In a development update from March, inXile say that Torment: Tides of Numenera will have a whopping 1 million words. Naturally, this can be dismissed as just fake marketing fluff, but the message still highlights a problem: why is the word count a subject of marketing? The motive behind it is obvious because it has been the same for years now: our skilled writers want it to be like a book, and a book has lots of text! Commenting upon the absurdity of the idea can be safely skipped, so let us instead draw a comparison.

Consider Tolstoy’s War and Peace – perhaps it is slightly unfair to compare TToN and War and Peace because, ultimately, a game’s text structure is going to be much different from a book – it will need functional texts, item descriptions, different dialogue choices, etc. Indeed, much of the text content may even be exclusive of each other, if we take a very generous assumption that Torment will be non-linear enough to hide a lot of these words from the player during a single playthrough. But nevertheless, let’s do it, if just to indulge a kind of perverse flight of fancy and compare a “game-as-book” to an actual book.

The Project Gutenberg edition of the novel spans over 1890 pages and roughly 570k words. Tolstoy was a world-class novelist and a master of the written word, which was certainly a factor in him being able to produce this intimidating colossus. Torment, apparently, has almost double the word count of War and Peace. I have my doubts whether the writers at inXile profess the same writing ability as Tolstoy, and whether they can make this huge mass of words engaging enough for me to read, even if I’m supposed to read only half of it. Even worse yet, more comparisons could be made to material of a more similar category, like all the fantasy series that span multiple entries, and which certainly achieve even higher word counts when put together. I’m sure we can all think of at least one such series, and we can also agree that most of them are of rather poor quality. So perhaps the real question here is not whether TToN can compare to War and Peace, but whether it can be captivating enough not to sink into mediocrity along with all the other one-million-word fantasy drivel. I would say the prospects are bleak.​

Read the full article: RPG Codex Editorial: Darth Roxor on the State of RPG Writing
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California
TLRD pls?
Literature-degree-holder with no practical experience writes 11,470 unedited words complaining about other literature-degree-holders with no practical experience writing too much in RPGs. :D

Actually, I had the pleasure of reading an Early Access build of this article, and I think it's great and worth reading, though Darth Roxor and I disagreed on a number of points, which it seems like he has sort of addressed in the current version. (Sometimes not entirely to my satisfaction. For example "citation needed" and "weasel words" tags are probably required for "this is a background that you will see frequently among video game writers.")

Unfortunately, I think this article is likely to have much less impact that Roxor's review of PoE, which I know was widely read among RPG developers, because it contains a mix of broad empirical claims unsupported by empirical evidence and because it raises subjective complaints that are not amenable to easy solution. "Unskilled people at the wheel" is a good example of this.

But seriously, folks should take the time to read it.

[EDIT:

On re-read, this line jumped out at me. I had already grumbled with Roxor about the section about literature degrees -- maybe when his papers are posthumously published our emails will come to light! -- but I'm not sure this line struck me the same way:
The notion that someone who knows a lot about literature will make for a good writer is close to saying that a theatre historian will be a good actor.
I think it is generally agreed, though, that game designers should be very familiar with the best games. Indeed, felipepepe might have words to say about that. Do we not think that Vault Dweller's broad experience with classic RPGs bore on the quality of AOD?

Note that this is different from the argument that contemporary academic creative writing and literature courses don't actually cause you to "know a lot about literature." I understand Darth Roxor's point to apply even if the courses were not crazy deconstructionism and were instead the kind of old-school close textualism and analysis of say the 1940s and 50s.

Also, it's tragic that the lag time for publishing this article is so long because the Tyranny jab really should be updated with the guys' admission that he doesn't actually read.]
 
Last edited:

Aeschylus

Swindler
Patron
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
2,538
Location
Phleebhut
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Well, this was a good read. I'm not sure I entirely agree with all the things listed as 'causes', though I do largely see eye-to-eye on the examples of both good and bad writing in games. To me a lot of these newer games (PoE was a particular culprit here) just feel like reading novels written by first-time authors without an editor. Actually, that's probably pretty close to the truth of the situation.

The main thing I took from it though is that my linguistics PhD would be better used for video game writing than research. :cool:
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,484
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Unfortunately, I think this article is likely to have much less impact that Roxor's review of PoE, which I know was widely read among RPG developers, because it contains a mix of broad empirical claims unsupported by empirical evidence and because it raises subjective complaints that are not amenable to easy solution. "Unskilled people at the wheel" is a good example of this.

Yup, that second chapter is going to make a lot of people groan. Still, it's a common Codexian/Gamergatian viewpoint and it deserves to be aired eloquently.

Also, it's tragic that the lag time for publishing this article is so long because the Tyranny jab really should be updated with the guys' admission that he doesn't actually read.]

Mostly doesn't read the kind of overlong fantasy fiction excoriated by the article, though. :M
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California
Still, it's a common Codexian/Gamergatian viewpoint and it deserves to be aired eloquently.
I don't think Roxor's articulation of it is particularly eloquent, though it may be forceful. :)

Also, it's tragic that the lag time for publishing this article is so long because the Tyranny jab really should be updated with the guys' admission that he doesn't actually read.]

Mostly doesn't read the kind of overlong fantasy fiction excoriated by the article, though. :M
Nope, mostly doesn't read anything (or at least any literature)."

Some guy whose name I never bothered to read said:
Most of my inspiration comes primarily from real life - I could mine human history for evil ideas literally forever - more acts of evil and deceit are created in one day than we can put in a game that takes years to make. Games are probably the second most influential source for me. I'm not much of a reader and can usually only tolerate fantasy literature if it's interactive.
Giving him the generous benefit of the doubt, his "real life" and "human history" might refer to non-fiction, though I think it's fairly clear in context that he's referring to Cracked.com articles like "The 17 Zaniest CIA Plots You Never Heard Of" and "Bronze Age Warfare Was Batshit Crazy... and Hilarious!" and so on. But even still, he goes from non-fiction to games as his second influence, and makes clear that the reason he's skipping over literature is because "I'm not much of a reader." Since the interview didn't suggest to me false humility, we should probably take him at his word. It's true that he skips over crappy fantasy literature, but if you're making a historical RPG, you might read historical fiction, for example.

[EDIT: Also, in a different interview, when asked what books influenced Tyranny the only book (series) he mentions is The Black Company, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]
 

CryptRat

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
3,564
Very nice read, I agree with most of the text. Some comments :

It is widely understood that worldbuilding is an important aspect of RPGs, and that it ties closely to all the other ones, such as exploration and story/world interactivity. The ways to establish a setting and make it believable are many, but the methods largely correspond to how big the setting is supposed to be.
The thing is, to me the world being coherent or documented is far less important that the world building in a gameplay sense. The best worlds in recent games are in Legend Of Grimrock 2, Heroine's quest or Voidspire Tactics, and SiTs, and maybe SiTS excepted they're all constructed around gameplay and nothing else. It's utter annoying that developpers prioritize the narrative aspect of the world (and don't even succeed at making that aspect good).

Do note that my criticism concerns only the people who try to do “elaborate” writing. None of this applies to game developers who really couldn’t give a damn about creating a multilayered plot structure with a dozen stylisations. If anything, I have nothing but respect for them, because it typically means they focus on things that actually matter for games, i.e. the goddamn gameplay. The bottom line is that “bad” writing by people who aren’t cut for it is fine when they are aware of their limitations and weaknesses. Bad writing by pompous poseurs who think themselves the next Tolkien, however, is definitely not fine.
:salute:

The third major issue is an important one for many reasons, primarily because it helps unveil even further the incompetence and lack of creativity that sits deep inside game developers. I am referring, of course, to the shallow copying of elements from other media, which don’t really fit particularly well with video games[...]One significant thing has to be stressed concerning the above “novelisation” of RPGs: it still remains just shallow copying and cue-taking without thought. That is because these games never go all the way in with the style or theme they are trying to emulate, instead sticking to the same old conventions, just polluted with qualities stolen from other media.
One thing that I never see mentioned here, personnally I really like the use of texts in games like Wasteland, Dragon Wars or Legend of Faerghail. Basically they are "tell, don't show" games for a big part, they use (I'd personally say well-written and very atmospheric) walls of text which describe a scene, then it's up to the player to figure out what to do (generally using an item or a skill), at least that's a gamey way to present texts, unlike clicking on a banal dialog choice.

Most of it, I think, can be observed in RPG companion characters. Each follower must have a Deep Story to share, unravelling it throughout the game, with multiple twists and turns, ambiguities, etc, and you are almost always forced to listen to it all to unlock new abilities for them. After a while, it gets tiresome, particularly since these companion stories are all constructed from similar building blocks, and so they tend to be very samey.[...]Finally, there is the matter of “serious business” and how it ruins the fun for everyone. Sometimes, developers will attempt to strive to a kind of constipated seriousness that doesn’t benefit them at all, and which begs for some comic relief.
I generally hate dialogs with companions, seriousness, emotional engagement, and often heavy story at all. I think sometimes it completely breaks the fun, or at least the mystery or investigation aspects. But it's clearly a big point of disagreement when talking about well-written or not well-written games and clearly a reason why prefer Fallout to many other games praised for their writing like PS:T.

The same can be said of all the other remakes, spiritual successors and reboots, when the people responsible for them will try to feed you nonsense about features that you shouldn’t expect to see again, because they “would just not work in this day and age”. If you ask me, if something did work fine at least once before, odds are it can be recreated and work just as well once more. But, again, this would take effort and humility, which are so hard to come by.
:salute:
 

Kem0sabe

Arcane
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
13,093
Location
Azores Islands
Mediocrity plagues the genre, look at hacks like CmCc, hailed as one of the writers of Torment.

Oathbreaker, Book 1: The Knight's Tale

A young knight, surgically augmented by the secretive Council of Magi, discovers a highly placed conspiracy aimed at the heart of the Empire of Terona. Foresworn and forced to choose between his oath and his duty, he flees the capital with the king's infant daughter, the last surviving member of the dynasty. Called a traitor, and with the might of the Empire pursuing him, he must seek friends who can help him to stave the rising darkness at the heart of his home.

A lifetime of writing, and this degenerate can't come up with a single original story, he even names his knights... Knights Elite.

Telling a good story in a game, is much more than simply writing text, it involves both artists, designers and writers, to setup a scene that pulls the player into the story that the game is telling, thats why The Witcher 3 managed to pull off some truly impressive story telling, or The Darkness adding some really impressive emotional scenes to the traditional shooter genre.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,484
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
MRY, you're pretty mean! The words "can only tolerate fantasy literature" seem suggestive of a particular antipathy towards that genre. I guess a valid interpretation if you think he's that much of a turbogeek is that fantasy literature is the only thing he would even consider reading and nothing else would ever even come to his mind.

Still, it's a common Codexian/Gamergatian viewpoint and it deserves to be aired eloquently.
I don't think Roxor's articulation of it is particularly eloquent, though it may be forceful. :)

Well, more eloquent than most? Maybe he should have run it past Decado. :cool:
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California
A third of American men read no books a year.[1] Two thirds of American men read no fiction.[2] Against that backdrop, "I'm not much of a reader" and no mention of any literary influence suggests to me that he simply doesn't read fiction. I think he mentions fantasy because he assumes it's expected of him that he'd read fantasy if he were making fantasy RPGs. Anyway, abstaining from fiction is not a moral wrong -- in fact, it's practically a norm!

My snarkiness about his non-fiction sources probably was mean, but the number of silly things that guy has said in marketing Tyranny merits a little bit of snark.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California
Mediocrity plagues the genre, look at hacks like CmCc, hailed as one of the writers of Torment.
Can't really judge a writer by that kind of a precis. My only objection is the use of "foresworn," which is contributing to the decline and fall of American letters, complete with an etymological red herring.[*] :shakesfist: I read a little of Colin's book and I thought that for a high fantasy sword-and-sorcery, it seemed well done, although I find the genre almost unbearable as a general matter these days.

[* Oh no! Foresake? What's next? Foregive?!]
 

Plane Escapee

Your friend
Patron
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
221
Location
chair
Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Nice, I'm looking forward to reading this. Snippet looks promising.

Infinitron you did a good job with the introductory text for this newspost. I thought I was reading from the article until "One of the most vocal figures in this counterreaction against modern RPG writing is distinguished Codex contributor Darth Roxor".
 

pomenitul

Arbiter
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
979
Location
μεταβολή
I've said this before, but it bears repeating. On the one hand, I can only sympathize with the call for avowable writing in CRPG's. On the other hand, anyone with a genuine interest in well-wrought fiction and diction would do best to suspend disbelief when playing video games or steer clear altogether, unless your goal is to transcend the entire medium from the ground up, in which case I salute your ill-fated endeavour.
 

SausageInYourFace

Angelic Reinforcement
Patron
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
3,858
Location
In your face
Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
Yeah, about that literature degree chapter..

a) Extremely forgiving/undemanding and giving out degrees to every average joe;
b) Generally favourable of everything post-modern, and all the things associated with it.

a) is a good point but to my mind the importance of b) is not as big as people on the interwebz presume it is.

All this is made even more prominent by post-modern sensibilities, according to which nothing can really be judged or evaluated, because the problem leading to something being bad is always due to some nebulous, unchangeable reason… or the problem doesn’t exist altogether. Finally, and perhaps worst of all, the disregard for past models and thought, exchanged for ill-advised attempts at reinventing the wheel and heedlessly pushing forward, that stems from universities and teachers being stuck in post-modern bubbles kills the one thing that has always been the basis of academia, and which also constitutes an important support platform for creativity – the proliferation of ideas.

This whole part is kinda citiation needed-tier. Postmodernism is not all that relevant anymore in literature departments and it certainly isn't on the contemporary book market. Why its importance is sometimes so overemphasized probably has a lot to do with the politization on universities in recent years, when postmodern sensibilities became a strawman for the alt-right. Perhaps its more relevant in certain social science departments (genderstudieslol; which incidentally you mention, so thats probably where the argument comes from) but for literature, I don't think so, not when it comes to quality judgements.

But that whole argument does not really matter because..

The combination of these two problems is the ultimate rotten foundation on which all terrible writing is based, for a number of reasons. First, undemanding courses require no effort from the student the lack of effort leads to complacency, and complacency stifles creativity. Second, didactic structures tailored for the lowest common denominator are typically based on inflexible models with simple, rigid goals, which stifles creativity even further. [... ] This auspicious fellow will be stripped of any broad knowledge or linguistic mastery and unwilling to learn anything new. He will be overly sure of his skill and immune to any criticism due to being patted on the head all the time. He will be the master of creation by checklist because his evaluation was always based on checklists.

..that part is spot on. :salute:

Postmodern induced absence of value judgements isn't needed to explain morons with a degree, yo.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
Does he quote passages from the new Torment? Please do!

Fingers-crossed1.jpg
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,484
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Nice, I'm looking forward to reading this. Snippet looks promising.

Infinitron you did a good job with the introductory text for this newspost. I thought I was reading from the article until "One of the most vocal figures in this counterreaction against modern RPG writing is distinguished Codex contributor Darth Roxor".

Thanks. I think of my writing as formulaic and mediocre, but I guess it's decent enough given my meager experience.

A potential problem with the intro is that it makes it seem like the article is all about DEEP LORE. It isn't - it starts with that, but it's about much more than that. Which is a good thing, because I think people have overstated the importance of the whole "loredumping" thing to the exclusion of other, less easily conceptualized issues. It's a low-hanging fruit criticism, like complaining about the camera in NWN2 or boss fights in DX:HR. This article goes deeper than that and expands the conversation.
 
Last edited:

Glaucon

Prophet
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
1,000
This whole part is kinda citiation needed-tier. Postmodernism is not all that relevant anymore in literature departments
Look through the course-list of any english department in America and you'll find dozens of classes devoted to postmodernism/deconstruction/post-historicism/critical theory/etc...but what I've noticed recently is that a lot of the kids in university now (and the younger faculty as well), are actually too dumb for deconstruction. The incredibly politically passionate, and they've memorized by rote the sentiments of all the fashionable (or once fashionable) french writers through professors/second literature--they just have no real, direct understanding of the texts. Maybe this is just my own experience at university, but I can't imagine their isn't a similar trend of mediocrity+politics going on elsewhere.
politization on universities in recent years, when postmodern sensibilities became a strawman for the alt-right.
The claim that humanities studies at universities has gone astray isn't a recent criticism by alt-righters--it's neither recent nor a criticism made exclusively by conservatives.
 

---

Arcane
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
1,724
Location
Italy
Found particularly interesting the section in which Darth Roxor suggests the utilization of different fonts and graphics features, inspired by comic books and things like that.
 

SausageInYourFace

Angelic Reinforcement
Patron
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
3,858
Location
In your face
Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
you'll find dozens of classes devoted to postmodernism/deconstruction/post-historicism/critical theory/etc

A class about postmodernism turns you into a postmodernist just as much as a class about victorianism turns you into a victorian.

in America

Yeah, that probably does make a difference.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom