.

[JamesDixon]

Attack the points not the poster

I just don't think that's a good use of my time in your case. And that's saying something.

And it's not "points" I'd be attacking, just bizarre misinformation and misunderstandings due to an uneducated (not pejorative, we can't all be experts at everything) individual reaching beyond his grasp and feeling like he has something to prove.

If there were misinformation in my post then defeat it you retarded walking poster for post birth abortion. You kept strawmanning what I said and ignored all the technical information because you're stupid just like the rest of your fucking generation. The best part of you ran down your momma's ass as she got up from servicing the bull that was your dad.

 

[JamesDixon]

I can't help it if you can't read you stupid commie fuck.

You should stop embarrassing yourself since you obviously don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Attack the points not the poster fucktard.

Right on.

Golden rule, if you don't attack me I don't attack you. I am under no obligation to be nice after someone attacks me. You want to be treated nicely then you treat me nicely. If not then you get all the abuse I heap on you.

 

[Rincewind]

I can't help it if you can't read you stupid commie fuck.

You should stop embarrassing yourself since you obviously don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Attack the points not the poster fucktard.

Right on.

Golden rule, if you don't attack me I don't attack you. I am under no obligation to be nice after someone attacks me. You want to be treated nicely then you treat me nicely. If not then you get all the abuse I heap on you.

Telling you that you're technically inaccurate and don't make much sense isn't "attacking", bro...

 

[JamesDixon]

I can't help it if you can't read you stupid commie fuck.

You should stop embarrassing yourself since you obviously don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Attack the points not the poster fucktard.

Right on.

Golden rule, if you don't attack me I don't attack you. I am under no obligation to be nice after someone attacks me. You want to be treated nicely then you treat me nicely. If not then you get all the abuse I heap on you.

Telling you that you're technically inaccurate and don't make much sense isn't "attacking", bro...

No, but calling me uneducated is PRINCESS.

 

[Rincewind]

...aaand back to the iggy bin he goes

 

[Morenatsu.]

I've been seeing a lot of this JamesDickhead guy around lately. It doesn't seem like anyone likes him at all.

 

[JamesDixon]

I've been seeing a lot of this JamesDickhead guy around lately. It doesn't seem like anyone likes him at all.

I've got quite a few people that like me on here. However, life is not a popularity contest and I don't care what anyone thinks. When you've lost everything in life repeatedly including your own kid then nothing matters.

If you can't debate honestly or adhere to the golden rule then you get everything you put out including the shit you did bestiality faggot.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

I like pixel art games, but I genuinely prefer the ps1 era 3d graphics.

 

[Great Deceiver]

plus I like the convenience of emulators.

Me too but the display technology just isn't there to emulate CRTs. Even this very expensive 4K 160HZ "HDR" IPS display I have doesn't cut it. What's missing is

1. The motion clarity
2. The brightness

For 1., I have to say that my current LG OLED panel gives me great motion clarity through black frame insertion (it's a 120hz panel). I love CRTs, own multiple arcade cabinets with them, but frankly it's getting pretty close now.

The drawback is, of course, that if you use BFI you're getting a dimmer overall picture, considerably dimmer than a CRT. But it doesn't bother me that much because of the much deeper blacks (yes, OLED blacks are deeper than CRT blacks) and because I play in a completely dark room.

 

[Bad Sector]

This is the point of contention. Except for pixel art created on and for VGA (how much such art is there? Even on PC half the games with decent pixel art were Amiga ports where the art was done on an Amiga).

PCs were widely more successful over the 90s than Amigas ever were, there are way more games made for PCs than for Amiga. Also, as i already wrote before, i do not refer to just VGA graphics.

most "retro" pixel art was built for analog image reconstruction, not coloring a grid of squares

Pretty much every single pixel art was made as coloring a grid of squares. Have you ever seen a 2D paint program? The ability to zoom in and work into individual pixels as colored rectangles is one of the most basic features - even on the Amiga.

People who grew up playing 2D games on [...] VGA low res modes are the ones who get it wrong. For fucks sake, how hard is to understand that?

That makes no sense, the point was how the monitor CRTs look, i show a photo of a PC monitor CRT that show pixel art like pretty much as you'd see them on a modern flat panel display and you go on tirades about signal processing, how VGA is somehow wrong and other irrelevant garbage. You are really off topic to the discussion.

Only if you have the view that an image is a 2D grid of squares, and not a sampled signal that needs to be reconstructed. The former is a very unsophisticated, poor, and I dare say amateurish misconception of what an image is.

And you'd be wrong to say that because in pixel art - and even in many graphics algorithms, but let's focus on pixel art - these images were indeed designed by painting them as a 2D grid of squares (again, see the relevant pixel art editing programs) and they are certainly not "sampled signal" (i mean think about it, sampled from where exactly? The artist's brain?). And again this has nothing to do with what i was referring to which is that monitor CRTs show pixel art like you'd see on a flat panel display (unless there is some issue with the CRT itself of course).

You don't know what you're talking about. There is no color bleeding unless your "TV CRT" is damaged in some way. Color bleeding might come from a composite signal, but RGB signals on "TV CRTs" with the same resolution, mask and phosphor spec will look *exactly* the same as a monitor on the same resolution, mask and phosphor spec.

I refer to the output shown on the left side as that image posted previously from -i guess- Final Fantasy 7.

 

[Morenatsu.]

I've been seeing a lot of this JamesDickhead guy around lately. It doesn't seem like anyone likes him at all.

I've got quite a few people that like me on here. However, life is not a popularity contest and I don't care what anyone thinks. When you've lost everything in life repeatedly including your own kid then nothing matters.

If you can't debate honestly or adhere to the golden rule then you get everything you put out including the shit you did bestiality faggot.

So you want everyone to treat you like a buttmad retard? Okay then.

 

[JamesDixon]

I've been seeing a lot of this JamesDickhead guy around lately. It doesn't seem like anyone likes him at all.

I've got quite a few people that like me on here. However, life is not a popularity contest and I don't care what anyone thinks. When you've lost everything in life repeatedly including your own kid then nothing matters.

If you can't debate honestly or adhere to the golden rule then you get everything you put out including the shit you did bestiality faggot.

So you want everyone to treat you like a buttmad retard? Okay then.

You get treated like you treat me bestiality loving faggot.

 

[Morenatsu.]

I've been seeing a lot of this JamesDickhead guy around lately. It doesn't seem like anyone likes him at all.

I've got quite a few people that like me on here. However, life is not a popularity contest and I don't care what anyone thinks. When you've lost everything in life repeatedly including your own kid then nothing matters.

If you can't debate honestly or adhere to the golden rule then you get everything you put out including the shit you did bestiality faggot.

So you want everyone to treat you like a buttmad retard? Okay then.

You get treated like you treat me bestiality loving faggot.

Maybe people wouldn't treat you that way if you didn't start yelling at them every chance you get.

JD: [retarded shit]
Poaster: I disagree
JD: Fuck you faggot, piss off.
Poaster: What? Why are you so mad, you fucking retard?
JD: MUH GOLDEN ROOL ITS UR FAULT

 

[JamesDixon]

I've been seeing a lot of this JamesDickhead guy around lately. It doesn't seem like anyone likes him at all.

I've got quite a few people that like me on here. However, life is not a popularity contest and I don't care what anyone thinks. When you've lost everything in life repeatedly including your own kid then nothing matters.

If you can't debate honestly or adhere to the golden rule then you get everything you put out including the shit you did bestiality faggot.

So you want everyone to treat you like a buttmad retard? Okay then.

You get treated like you treat me bestiality loving faggot.

Maybe people wouldn't treat you that way if you didn't start yelling at them every chance you get.

‘[retarded shit]’
‘I disagree’
‘Fuck you faggot, piss off.’
‘What? Why are you so mad, you fucking retard?’
‘MUH GOLDEN ROOL ITS UR FAULT’

See how much I care what I think of you and your idiotic bestiality fucking opinion faggot.

*Presses the ignore button*

 

[Morenatsu.]

It's like that thing Unreal was talking about.

 

[tritosine2k]

asfasdf What is it hard to understand; "pixel art" was already largely sidelined in 90's by high quality sprites , then there wasn't any sort of revival but kitsch "artist"-s found it, and don't appreciate same qualities you did- at all.
If you don't understand then feel free to discuss "pixel art" then, lol.

^ "BFI" in 2021, lol.

 

[gurugeorge]

It has its charms sometimes, but basically it's a thing of the past, and a nostalgia jag for young and old.

Yes, I'm a graphics whore, and I'm proud of it.

 

[Nutmeg]

Also, as i already wrote before, i do not refer to just VGA graphics.

You most certainly do as only VGA card output does that nearest neighbor line doubling for low res.

Remove that, and the (extra) chunkiness goes away and a "monitor CRT" will display the signal just like evil magical "TV CRT" of equivalent specs. How could it be otherwise?

sampled from where exactly? The artist's brain

From the data grid the artist defines. The data grid gets transformed by electronics to an image. This is done differently by LCDs which show the data grid more or less verbatim and CRTs which make a more sophisticated attempt to reconstruct a continuous signal.

 

[Nutmeg]

PC monitor CRT that show pixel art like pretty much as you'd see them on a modern flat panel display and you go on tirades about signal processing, how VGA is somehow wrong

My point is simple:

1. It's not the monitor that's causing the look but the signal cause it gets line doubled. You keep ignoring this point and saying the difference is due to the screen being a monitor instead of a TV and it's annoying, so if you insist on this I think it's best to end the conversation.

2. VGA is wrong to line double as that's nearest neigbor scaling along the vertical axis. If the thing being doubled were a digital photograph, it would be obviously wrong as it (completely unnecessarily) takes away the (free!) sinc-like scaling CRTs do (only along the vertical axis in this case, horizontal is still getting it), sinc being objectively mathematically perfect. For art, it's not "wrong" unless it goes against the artist's intent which it would for anything created on a machine that doesn't do this.

Also how much 2D low res (hi-res does not get doubled by VGA) pixel art from the CRT era do you think was created on and for VGA? I would think like 1%? Probably less.

 

[Malamert]

Pixel art in Jap games is great. Nigh divine. Pixel art in Western "games"? Yeah, nah, fuck off.

 

[Rincewind]

Sure, pixel art was born out of necessity, but then it grew into its own unique art form. Just like any medium (pencil-on-paper, oil painting, airbrushing, wood etchings, etc.) it imposes limitations on the artist than can lead to interesting results that are unique to the medium. Pixel art is very much alive and both veteran and newschool artists are doing amazing work.

Sure, most pixel art is not "high art"... but what videogame art can be considered "high art" anyway? More generally, is "high art" even being produced nowadays? And if it is, do I even care? I either like the end result or not. Plus, if we're honest about it, 99.99% of all sci-fi, fantasy and game illustrations can easily be considered "kitschy", but we still love them.

But then I'm heavily biased because I grew up with C64, Amiga and DOS games, and I was also into producing pixel art back in the Amiga days in DPaint. I also like game art that is more abstract; one of the things that is ruining today's gaming in my opinion is that everybody wants to be hyper-realistic and "literal" in presentation.

Another important consideration for non-artists: I takes a *lot* more time to produce high-quality game art (e.g. static background paintings) at 1920x1080 vs something like 640x480. The thing is, if you have more resolution to work with, you really need to put it more details otherwise the final piece looks like just a sketch. I can see that sketchy "style" in too many indie games and absolutely can't stand it (it's not really a "style" as it's really about saving time & effort while still producing art at higher resolutions). Personally, I'd take art carefully pixelled in 90s Bitmap Brothers / Psygnosis style in 960x540 or as low as 640x360 over sketchy 1920x1080 any day.

In any case, here are some recent(ish) examples of great non-hipster pixel art (Thimbleweed Park was pixelled by the one and only Mark Ferrari). None of these have any palette restrictions, and to me "true" pixel art always has a limited palette, but they're still great "modern" examples.

Thimbleweed Park

Thimbleweed Park

Gemini Rue

Gemini Rue

VirtuaVerse

VirtuaVerse

 

[tritosine2k]

The topic should be "pixel art era games" at the very least.

Current stuff hopefully goes silent film route, it already mimics it to hell and back ( sped up movement, keyed scenery, "fun", stereotyped characters etc).

+Nowadays even 2person teams use high quality imported sprites from Blender that can be lit

...

 

[Morenatsu.]

So where's this magical VGA monitor that can display low resolutions as is without shitting its pants? Can you show it to me?

 

[Nutmeg]

So where's this magical VGA monitor that can display low resolutions as is without shitting its pants? Can you show it to me?

Are you asking me? Anyway, there's plenty. Google "15kHz VGA monitor". Amiga and Arcade communities maintain lists of them. Here's one such list https://www.amiga.net.au/15KHz Monitors.html.

A nice one I have my eye on at the moment is the Sony GVM-2020.

If your screen doesn't support low-res and you don't want to get a new one I guess what you could do is just blank out every other line. That's what I heard some people do i.e. they just output a standard 640 by 480 signal, by 2x scaling with nearest neighbor on their emulator or game settings or whatever, and then run it through a mini-SLG. Not sure if it works with a "native" VGA 13h line doubled 320 by 400 signal (it might), but as discussed if you're running a game where this is the native video mode (i.e. not an Amiga port or emulated console or arcade game), it was probably intended to have chunky, almost square, visible pixels.

 

[Bad Sector]

You most certainly do as only VGA card output does that nearest neighbor line doubling for low res.

It's not the monitor that's causing the look but the signal cause it gets line doubled.

None of that stuff matter, what matters it that the art made on CRTs only look like the smudgy stuff people keep on associating with CRTs on the -often crappy- TV CRTs they used with their consoles at the time and people who played games on PCs (and other computers) had actually a much better and sharper image that properly reproduced the pixels.

That artists who targeted TV CRTs took advantage of how these CRTs displayed their images to produce better looking results doesn't mean that *ALL* CRTs looked like that nor all people who played games on CRTs played games looking like that or associate CRTs with looking like that and *especially* it doesn't mean that the TV CRTs are how CRT graphics are "supposed" to look - which is exactly what i am trying all this time to say that is wrong.

Also...

Remove that, and the (extra) chunkiness goes away and a "monitor CRT" will display the signal just like evil magical "TV CRT" of equivalent specs.

...you keep ignoring that i was not refering only to low res VGA, i only used that as a very obvious example.

From the data grid the artist defines. .

The data grid the artist defines is 2D rectangular pixels, have you ever seen a pixel artist actually work? Or even a program made for pixel art? Or actually, ignore the "pixel art" part, have you actually seen *ANY* 2D bitmap image editing program? Do you think the zoom in feature is nearest neighbour out of some hardware limitation? These are all intentional because artists (and especially pixel artists) *do* treat these as 2D rectangular pixels.

And honestly i'm not that interested in keeping up with this discussion, you just cling to something you wrote and do not want to change your mind no matter what, it is a waste of time to go further. I used my tablet's camera which is a bit better than my phone's to take two photos of the same image posted above and included the mouse cursor which - especially on the CRT side which is on a PC running an older version of Windows - shows how rectangular pixels look. Here it is, scaled to be more or less the same size (it isn't perfect because i only took a snapshot):

If you think the left side looks closer to the smudgy stuff posted earlier or the two images look considerably different (honestly in person they look even more similar since i had to zoom in the flat panel more than the CRT because it is a 1440p panel - i could connect my 768p which has lower DPI and is closer the CRT's DPI but i just can't bother beyond that) or that the pixels on the mouse cursor are not clearly visible and rectangular then i do not know what to say - check your eyes perhaps.