Review Our Gothic 3 review

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: Gothic III; Piranha Bytes

<a href=http://www.gothic3.com>Gothic 3</a> has just been released in North America and we are pleased to influence your buying decision with this <a href=http://www.rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=137>review</a>:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote>If you absolutely must know what some global goals are, the fire mages want you to find twelve fire chalices that are scattered all over the land (some of them are guarded carefully and will be traded for a fortune, some of them fell into the hands of orcs/humans who don’t know their real value and, thus, could be easily obtained – very nice touch, if you ask me); the ex-general wants a teleporter-to-the-palace stone to finish the, well, unfinished business with the king; I was also asked to find Xardas, but as usual the bastard has managed to talk his way out with some “I can explain!” bullshit instead of laughing maniacally and throwing fireballs at me, which is what evil necromancers called bosses usually do in games. I didn’t do much work for the orcs, so I couldn’t see the top guys and find out what they want.</blockquote>It did feel refreshing to find Xardas, a necromancer who helped the orcs to breach the humans' defenses, and have a civilized conversation with him.
<br>
<br>

 

[Krokar]

Thats a realy nice review VD. I enjoyed reading it.

 

[Volourn]

Well written review.... but///


80% combat and you praise it? Sounds like reptive questing where each town is baicially the same choice - who to join. *yawn* LOL BIO games - which don't neccessarily fit the firstd esxcription (but can sometimes get clsoe to the second) would be destroyed by you if it fit that criteria. What a hypocrite who is no better than the Bethesda fanboys.

Graphics look good, and all that. The game might be fun; but yuour fanboyness comes shining through. Pathetic.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Choices, Volly, choices. If Bio games had choices, they would have been praised like the first coming of Christ.

 

[tetsuo]

Well written review.... but///


80% combat and you praise it? Sounds like reptive questing where each town is baicially the same choice - who to join. *yawn* LOL BIO games - which don't neccessarily fit the firstd esxcription (but can sometimes get clsoe to the second) would be destroyed by you if it fit that criteria. What a hypocrite who is no better than the Bethesda fanboys.

Graphics look good, and all that. The game might be fun; but yuour fanboyness comes shining through. Pathetic.

i agree and ontop of that its very buggy and unoptimized , the story is very weak (compared to the previous games) and combat is the worst i ever had the misfortune to experience in an action rpg, here in germqany many people are not very happy with the game the fan forums are full of them.I really didnt think this game would be praised here so mutch, it really doesnt deserve that in my book.

Choices, Volly, choices. If Bio games had choices, they would have been praised like the first coming of Christ.

yeah well but they lead to nothing the game would be the same with or without them.

 

[Baphomet]

Of course the story is weak. I have never played Gothic and I could have told you that. Plot and interactivity are opposed concepts. You can't let the player make real choices because it will harm the developer's fragile storyline. Gothic features what is called a metaplot.

 

[Volourn]

"Choices, Volly, choices. If Bio games had choices, they would have been praised like the first coming of Christ."

BIO games have LOTS of choices. And, they're much more complex usually than a simple orc vs. human one. L0LLERZ Moron.

I'm not judging the game itself either since I ahfven't played it. I'm going strictly by your very own review which states quite clearly that it's 80% combat, it has a poor story, choices are pretty limited to orc vs. human in 24 towns that are basically set up the same way, etc., etc.

Doesn't sound that impressive the way YOU describe it and you are a fanboy of the game. That makes me really worried despite the graphics looking very impressive. Perhaps, I shouldn't have bother putting my $10 down for it... if a fnaboy mkaes a game look average at best; that's pretty scary indeed...

 

[The_Nameless_Prick]

Well written review.... but///


80% combat and you praise it? Sounds like reptive questing where each town is baicially the same choice - who to join. *yawn* LOL BIO games - which don't neccessarily fit the firstd esxcription (but can sometimes get clsoe to the second) would be destroyed by you if it fit that criteria. What a hypocrite who is no better than the Bethesda fanboys.

Graphics look good, and all that. The game might be fun; but yuour fanboyness comes shining through. Pathetic.

Volley, I think most of us agree that Gothic 3 is much more fluid, lacks the clunkiness of Bioware games, and is not a pure RPG. Therefore it is overall more enjoyable than Bioware games. I also think our goal here is to get peoples minds off Oblivion so we can broaden peoples horizens. Mankind(or at least intelligent, constructive gaming) is fucked if Oblivion stays dominant over the industry.

 

[tetsuo]

Of course the story is weak. I have never played Gothic and I could have told you that. Plot and interactivity are opposed concepts. You can't let the player make real choices because it will harm the developer's fragile storyline. Gothic features what is called a metaplot.

yeah well but it wasnt that way in the previous game, the game designers them self said in an statement that they are not happy with the game and its story and many fans here in germany think this is the weakest part of the gothic triology because of that and many other things.

Volley, I think most of us agree that Gothic 3 is much more fluid, lacks the clunkiness of Bioware games, and is not a pure RPG. Therefore it is overall more enjoyable than Bioware games. I also think our goal here is to get peoples minds off Oblivion so we can broaden peoples horizens. Mankind(or at least intelligent, constructive gaming) is fucked if Oblivion stays dominant over the industry.

This is the problem i see here, you people seem to like G3 because it is not Oblivion.It seems to have some kind of exotic and indie feeling for you guys or something like that, it isnt that way here, Gothic is a big Hype Game over here and very Mainstream.
I was Gothic fanboy from the first Game on, but i just cant like this Game it doesnt feel like the gothic i loved anymore, it feels more like a bad Oblivion Clone, it has worse and way to mutch combat then the last Games, worse story and dialogue, the friends from the past games dont matter anymore and so on, ontop of that its buggy and unfinished (previous Games where buggy too but not unfinished) so maybe its a good Game for Americans who are new to the series but many German old time Fans here would have hoped for so mutch more.

 

[Volourn]

"Therefore it is overall more enjoyable than Bioware games."

If it's anything like G1 or G2; NO. And, Gothic 3 possibly being better than Oblivion does NOT impress me. Sorry.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Not having played the game I can't contribute much to the discussion other than the review gives a fairly objective view of the game, while also dripping enough venom to sting at other CRPGs which are highly publicized yet fail to accomplish something as simple as that which Gothic 3 provides.

As for the 'Bioware vs. choices' discussion, I'd advocate that like Volourn says, their games do present choices and do so quite often. Sometimes, as he says, more complex than an Orc vs. Human issue. However, I think what Vault is trying to say here - and has said - is that choices in their games aren't judged in a vacuum. After all, Morrowind and Oblivion also provide with many choices yet several here still look down on the games. The issue isn't the existence of choices themselves but how they're handled. As the most outspoken Bioware fan Volly, you should know as well as I do that most choices in Bioware games are cosmetic, with consequences being poorly handled. We've gone through this plenty of times with specific examples, even.

As for the Orc vs. Human side of things, Bioware did present greater or one would say, far more epic situations. The entire Bhaalspawn saga is an example. Problem is, just how many times does the PC manage to be anything more than a witless pawn forced by several sides into doing their bidding? The case for Gothic 3's main story hook - the racial tensions - haven't really been done in the same way in Bio's games. When was the last time in one of their games where the PC's actions could effectively change faction standing and power within the gameworld and related gameplay situations, as opposed to some hint on a endgame slideshow? Not much if at all. Sure as hell not to this scale.

 

[The_Nameless_Prick]

This the problem i see here , you people seem to like G3 because it is not oblivion.
I was Gothic fanboy from the first game on, but i just cant like this game it doesnt feel like the gothic i love anymore, it feels more like a bad oblivion clone, it has worse and way to mutch combat then the last games, worse story and dialogue, the friends from the past games dont matter anymore and so on, ontop of that its buggy and unfinished (previous games where buggy too but not unfinished) so maybe its a good game for americans who are new to tthe series but many german old time fans here would have hoped for so mutch more.

I agree that the first 2 Gothic games were much harder and had more depth and practical skills than Gothic 3. It's sad that we have to use a broken-down-from-the-origins series, but if we can convince people that Gothic 3 is better than Oblivion, that's a good start.

 

[Volourn]

"As the most outspoken Bioware fan Volly, you should know as well as I do that most choices in Bioware games are cosmetic, with consequences being poorly handled."

I disagree for the most part. Oustide of the game ending where chocies didn't matter allt hat much - at least until HOTU - choices made in BIO games didn't matter and were more than just cosmetic.

And, even that changed with HOTU, a little with KOTOR (though that was as basic as G3), and JE. And, I'm sure they'll continue that tend witht heir new Action RPG ME, and DA.


"The case for Gothic 3's main story hook - the racial tensions - haven't really been done in the same way in Bio's games. When was the last time in one of their games where the PC's actions could effectively change faction standing and power within the gameworld and related gameplay situations, as opposed to some hint on a endgame slideshow? Not much if at all. Sure as hell not to this scale."

That's about the thing G3 does better seemingly role-playing wise than BIO games have done to date. One thing. And, loike I said, it's nothing more than an either/or choice. If BIO had done that they'd be crucified here - just like when they made their first 9well second) mutliple ending game with KOTOR when they had a 'good vs evil' system which as whined about multiple teams wa svery simple. Orc vs. human is not really better.

 

[The_Nameless_Prick]

"Therefore it is overall more enjoyable than Bioware games."

If it's anything like G1 or G2; NO. And, Gothic 3 possibly being better than Oblivion does NOT impress me. Sorry.

I personally do not think DnD should be put on computer games, Volley. It just doesn't seem to work out in an enjoyable way ESPECIALLY with that stupid fucking clunky interface. So naturally, I think G1 and G2 are much more enjoyable than Bioware games because their interface was designed for computer gaming, not pen and paper.

Like I said in my last post, convincing people G3 is better than Oblivion is a good start.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"Choices, Volly, choices. If Bio games had choices, they would have been praised like the first coming of Christ."

BIO games have LOTS of choices. And, they're much more complex usually than a simple orc vs. human one. L0LLERZ Moron.

You are way too predictable these days.

I'm going strictly by your very own review which states quite clearly that it's 80% combat, it has a poor story, choices are pretty limited to orc vs. human in 24 towns that are basically set up the same way, etc., etc.

Now describe Fallout in such a manner and let's see how it sounds.

This the problem i see here , you people seem to like G3 because it is not oblivion.

Did you miss the G3 vs Oblivion paragraph written for people like you?

It seems to have some kind of exotic and indie feeling for you guys or something like that, it isnt that way here , Gothic is a big hypegame over here and very mainstream.

Really? It's not a 2-people indie studio operating out of Wisconsin?

...so maybe its a good game for americans who are new to the series ...

What series? Are you saying there were other Gothic games before this one?

 

[tetsuo]

What series? Are you saying there were other Gothic games before this one?

if you know about them maybe you should play them , maybe then you could understand why long time fans like me are disapointed with gothic 3.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Thanks for the tip, but I've played all of them.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I disagree for the most part. Oustide of the game ending where chocies didn't matter allt hat much - at least until HOTU - choices made in BIO games didn't matter and were more than just cosmetic.

How many of their choices were more than cosmetic? Taking civilians lives for instance, in the Baldur's Gate games. One trip to the church and you could walk away free from having slaughtered an almost entire town. Trying to betray or otherwise work against a story specific faction in Baldur's Gate 2 would result in the party getting killed by a killsw01.itm-wielding Thief, or getting barred at the cemetary. Many, many dialogue choices lead to the same outcome from an answer standpoint. All good or selfless decisions made at the Underdark made no Drow suspicious. And how many choices in Knights of the Old Republic were affected by how your NPCs butted in on your actions in the game, such as commiting evil actions? I know, I know - these games are dead. But cut me some slack

I did say most, not all. Some choices have consequences. While trivial and ultimately lacking punch since their death was reversible, having Bodhi snatch away the PC's romantic interest was a good example of choices - particularly those that have been made along the course of the game - had a logical and satisfying consequence. The trials in Hell also come to mind. I didn't get much time with HotU so I'll have to take your word for the time being.

And, even that changed with HOTU, a little with KOTOR (though that was as basic as G3), and JE. And, I'm sure they'll continue that tend witht heir new Action RPG ME, and DA.

Honestly, I always want to see what Bioware has in store because they are in a position to take their usually limited design into greater heights. I can only hope someday they'll get there.

That's about the thing G3 does better seemingly role-playing wise than BIO games have done to date. One thing. And, loike I said, it's nothing more than an either/or choice. If BIO had done that they'd be crucified here - just like when they made their first 9well second) mutliple ending game with KOTOR when they had a 'good vs evil' system which as whined about multiple teams wa svery simple. Orc vs. human is not really better.

The issue isn't the kind of races involved in the dispute though, just how it's particularly handled. I know I'd congratulate Bioware for doing this, the same way I did when they allowed for more character choices in Knights of the Old Republic.

And the only time I criticize multiple endings is when they are determined by last minute choices. Not that they are necessarily bad from a storyline point of view but they are of much lesser impact, poorly handled or simply fail to take past decisions into account. There should be some incentive into replaying a game and why not tie that into the decisions the PC makes along the way? This was one of my main gripes with Deus Ex, Throne of Bhaal and - surprise! - Vampire: Bloodlines.

 

[tetsuo]

Thanks for the tip, but I've played all of them.

Well if you played them and cant see whats wrong wth G3 compared to them, then i really dont know what to say.

 

[bylam]

Hey Volourn,
You really should give G3 a chance. Having played and enjoyed Jade Empire, KOTOR, BG's, NWN's I can still see that Gothic 3 allows for far more choice.
Bioware games tend to force you to play "levels" (not in the RP sense).

I actually disagree with VD that the game is 80% combat. It is only if you choose it. But you can run from town to town doing quests without fighting anything. And most of the quests are NOT of the kind, go here, kill this.
Hell I teleported to the kings city and then managed to run through an army of orcs to reach the king, without having to fight anything.
And leading a violent mob of bloodthirsty monsters to attack an orc-invaded town carries its own rewards!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Thanks for the tip, but I've played all of them.

Well if you played them and cant see whats wrong wth G3 compared to them, then i really dont know what to say.

That's the part where the "the game sucks but you don't understand it because you haven't played the first one" bullshit stops and an attempt to present your position begins.

 

[Volourn]

"You really should give G3 a chance."

I'm already planning to. As before, i've alreayd put 10$ down on the game. For the record, I disliked the first two games though I saw potential in the series. What I've read about G3 before its release was pretty impressive. I do have some second doubvts about the game now due to all the bug talking (I don't count VD's proclaimation of 'no bugs' as anything b/c he has a habit of stating agmes he likes having no bugs ala TOEE since he's a prototypical fanboy), and even VD's own review makes me scratch my head over it.


" Having played and enjoyed Jade Empire, KOTOR, BG's, NWN's I can still see that Gothic 3 allows for far more choice.
Bioware games tend to force you to play "levels" (not in the RP sense)."

If 'levels' mean areas, yeah, that's true. But, that's also because BIO has always stressed the stories as well. They've never pretended to be open exploration game like a Gothic or ES game or even FO to a degree. But, there's more to role-playing than big open spaces. If there wasn't, ES games would be the 'best ever' RPGs; and I despise thats eries.

 

[Claw]

Choices, Volly, choices. If Bio games had choices, they would have been praised like the first coming of Christ.

But VD, BIOD games have very deep choices with strong consequences. You can decide to play them or not. That's significant.

many fans here in germany think this is the weakest part of the gothic triology because of that and many other things.

And why do we care that those morons think? Oh wait, we don't. Stop trying to support your position by referring to "the fans" in Germany.

its a good Game for Americans who are new to the series but many German old time Fans here would have hoped for so mutch more.

That's one of the most pathetic arguments I've ever heard on the Codex and I am not surprised you are the one to utter it. Of course I hoped for more. Of course my high hopes were horribly disappointed. But I got over it. It's still a good game as long as it runs on your system. The only serious problem with Gothic 3 is that it seems to be virtually unplayable for too many people. If you are "lucky" and it runs on your system, it's a fine game. Not the pure awesomeness I might have hope for, but really fine.

i really dont know what to say.

You never did. Unfortunately that didn't stop you.

 

[Littlefizz]

Well if you played them and cant see whats wrong wth G3 compared to them, then i really dont know what to say.

I'm curious about that, what do teh hardcore fans find so wrong about this gothic? I played the others and it clearly shows it is a sequel, they tried to fix some of the problems (horrible interface, horrible combat when theres more than 1 enemy) and even succeeded in some areas.

What makes it closer to oblivion that to the first 2 gothics? the bigger world?

 

[Jasede]

I haven't played G3 yet, only the demo, so I guess the complaints might be as follows:

* less interaction with the old key NPCs, Diego, Gorn and folks.
* many small settlements, instead of a few big ones
* level-like design with little backtracking. [PB said it themselves: After clearing a town, you are NOT supposed to come back. You just move on. Completely unlike G1/2.]
* more mainstream skillpoint system with many points to distribute. [In G1/2 you'd think thrice before spending a single point; doesn't seem to be the case in G3]