Prosper A Dane and a Swede argue about MOBAs, also Crime & Punishment

[Sensuki]

Sensuki is cool for not dismissing lessons from mobas out of hand

The things to ignore from MOBAs IMO for an RPG is the hero system designs, itemization, cooldowns and 'length' of combat. Four abilities, lots of levels that don't really give you much and lots of HP Bloat. That's why Aarklash: Legacy is really boring after a few encounters.

Another problem with doing a moba-influenced RPG is you take out the 'player' element and unpredictability that makes a lot of those mechanics interesting. AI Coding in RPGs hasn't gone very far past - enemy runs in and auto attacks and maybe reacts to stuff that you do. So hit scan aimed abilities like landing a Pudge hook or a PotM arrow becomes pretty easy in a singleplayer game.

In spite of this there are actually a lot of interesting game mechanics to be found in such games. Ability design is something worth looking at (minus cooldowns). WC3/DotA's proc system is pretty interesting, mathematically. These games would be good to look at in regards to how to make positioning important in RtwP and how to make combat interesting through map and fog of war design. There's lots and lots of stuff.

 

[Ninjerk]

I think what DotA, especially (and maybe some of the clones), does well is consistently coming up with interesting iterations of a particular playstyle.

 

[Space Satan]

LOL @ equating Dota to chess

...with one piece and a forest

 

[Grunker]

a retard for thinking there is a significant different in complexity between DotA and its compadres (League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth et al). League of Legends for example compensates for less complex "superficial mechanics" like denial with much, much more lane aggressiveness and a larger focus on player vs. player mechanics and skill shots.

yeah keeping down the enemy's exp and gold gain is superficial and not at all how you get ahead outside of kills and base raze.

this is a discussion for another thread, but I would really like to see how LoL has a bigger emphasis on "skill shots". as I understand it, LoL has many visual aids to see where stuff lands, and things do not deal as much damage or has as big impact as a successfully landed ability in Dota. also, how can you say it has much more lane aggressiveness when it's entirely possible to spend an entire game of dota just focusing on 1-2 lanes with constant fighting..?
I really think you're out of your depth in this discussion.

There you have it folks: complex mechanics = obtuse targeting!

 

[Grunker]

Sensuki is cool for not dismissing lessons from mobas out of hand

The things to ignore from MOBAs IMO for an RPG is the hero system designs, itemization, cooldowns and 'length' of combat. Four abilities, lots of levels that don't really give you much and lots of HP Bloat. That's why Aarklash: Legacy is really boring after a few encounters.

Another problem with doing a moba-influenced RPG is you take out the 'player' element and unpredictability that makes a lot of those mechanics interesting. AI Coding in RPGs hasn't gone very far past - enemy runs in and auto attacks and maybe reacts to stuff that you do. So hit scan aimed abilities like landing a Pudge hook or a PotM arrow becomes pretty easy in a singleplayer game.

In spite of this there are actually a lot of interesting game mechanics to be found in such games. Ability design is something worth looking at (minus cooldowns). WC3/DotA's proc system is pretty interesting, mathematically. These games would be good to look at in regards to how to make positioning important in RtwP and how to make combat interesting through map and fog of war design. There's lots and lots of stuff.

I guess I agree, dunno why you quoted me to make this point though.

 

[DraQ]

Why do I always have the urge to punch someone's face in whenever I hear one of those -ization buzzwords?

 

[Newfag-er]

1008 pages... my lord

(the number on the page tab even starts to look funnah now)

Even though it isn't the best idea to let single player games be compare to mutiplayer games, there are certain things we can learn from them.

Also keep in mind the game in discussion assuming ai of different types, and it's quite frustrating when your team ai isn't living up to their expectation.

 

[RPGMaster]

I never liked Starcraft 2 anywhere near as much as the first one. Blizzard killed it with the expansion as well.

I know this is pretty OT but I pretty much see it this way

DotA is a 50 over cricket game. It can be exciting, it can be boring. Depends on the meta, the match etc - much more room for variation with lineups.

LoL is a 20/20 Cricket game. It's technically more exciting and you see more boundaries and sixes, but it is an inferior game.

I think 20/20 Cricket is fucking terrible just like I think DotA derivatives are terrible. Many people don't like the amount of superficial mechanics that DotA has but I think those are the things that make it exceptional and every little thing like that adds to player skill. That's just me - I don't think there's anything wrong with the farm game - there's macro and micro to consider rather than just hurr hurr all in 5 man push and ganks.

HoN was actually pretty good in the beta, then they killed it just around the time the full version came out when they started making heroes that have everything - nuke, escape mechanism and ridiculous boom ults.

All cricket is shit.

 

[Zed]

a retard for thinking there is a significant different in complexity between DotA and its compadres (League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth et al). League of Legends for example compensates for less complex "superficial mechanics" like denial with much, much more lane aggressiveness and a larger focus on player vs. player mechanics and skill shots.

yeah keeping down the enemy's exp and gold gain is superficial and not at all how you get ahead outside of kills and base raze.

this is a discussion for another thread, but I would really like to see how LoL has a bigger emphasis on "skill shots". as I understand it, LoL has many visual aids to see where stuff lands, and things do not deal as much damage or has as big impact as a successfully landed ability in Dota. also, how can you say it has much more lane aggressiveness when it's entirely possible to spend an entire game of dota just focusing on 1-2 lanes with constant fighting..?
I really think you're out of your depth in this discussion.

There you have it folks: complex mechanics = obtuse targeting!

you say LoL "compensates for less superficial complexity" with that complete bullshit about more aggressive lane play and skill shots.
I explained to you why skill shots in Dota require more from the player. LoL is a fucking disneyland attraction in comparison to Dota.
So I guess it doesn't make up for any lack of complexity then, and that there in fact is a disparity in complexity between the two titles.
LoL is a game for babies. Dota is more complex. Mystery solved.

 

[Grunker]

I explained to you why skill shots in Dota require more from the player.

baldur's gate is a harder game than toee 'cause toee has clearer targeting

you say LoL "compensates for less superficial complexity" with that complete bullshit about more aggressive lane play and skill shots.

You're just talking out of your ass, right?

Do you actually fucking watch these things getting played? LoL has an obviously more aggressive laning phase, there's just no way around it. The fucking game is designed around engangements being less costly and therefore players attempt them much, much more. Less focus on farming + less costly engaments = more fucking engaments. How is this rocket science? There's nothing bad or good about this objectively, it's just different. The focus of the game's laning phases are difference. But it creates different gameplay and you can't meaningfully say that one is supar-deep and the other is 2tally for babies. It makes no sense.

Fucking can't believe i'm having the "which moba is better lololololo" with an actual intelligent human being. It's a retarded discussion on the level of YouTube comments made by 12-year-olds.

 

[DefJam101]

a retard for thinking there is a significant different in complexity between DotA and its compadres (League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth et al). League of Legends for example compensates for less complex "superficial mechanics" like denial with much, much more lane aggressiveness and a larger focus on player vs. player mechanics and skill shots.

yeah keeping down the enemy's exp and gold gain is superficial and not at all how you get ahead outside of kills and base raze.

this is a discussion for another thread, but I would really like to see how LoL has a bigger emphasis on "skill shots". as I understand it, LoL has many visual aids to see where stuff lands, and things do not deal as much damage or has as big impact as a successfully landed ability in Dota. also, how can you say it has much more lane aggressiveness when it's entirely possible to spend an entire game of dota just focusing on 1-2 lanes with constant fighting..?
I really think you're out of your depth in this discussion.

There you have it folks: complex mechanics = obtuse targeting!

Just to clarify: you are only saying this because dota games are boring clickfest RTS twitch games with unfun gameplay, right? Because if not you're essentially attacking action games for not including auto aim

 

[Zed]

baldur's gate is a harder game than toee 'cause toee has clearer targeting

I don't remember much of spells in ToEE, but I assume landing a fireball is harder in Baldur's Gate.

 

[Grunker]

a retard for thinking there is a significant different in complexity between DotA and its compadres (League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth et al). League of Legends for example compensates for less complex "superficial mechanics" like denial with much, much more lane aggressiveness and a larger focus on player vs. player mechanics and skill shots.

yeah keeping down the enemy's exp and gold gain is superficial and not at all how you get ahead outside of kills and base raze.

this is a discussion for another thread, but I would really like to see how LoL has a bigger emphasis on "skill shots". as I understand it, LoL has many visual aids to see where stuff lands, and things do not deal as much damage or has as big impact as a successfully landed ability in Dota. also, how can you say it has much more lane aggressiveness when it's entirely possible to spend an entire game of dota just focusing on 1-2 lanes with constant fighting..?
I really think you're out of your depth in this discussion.

There you have it folks: complex mechanics = obtuse targeting!

Just to clarify: you are only saying this because dota games are boring clickfest RTS twitch games with unfun gameplay, right? Because if not you're essentially attacking action games for not including auto aim

Auto aim? Wat

We're talking about a silhouette arrow that points in the direction of your skillshot, it's like the difference between aiming fireballs in baldur's gate and temple of elemental evil... it's not system mastery, it's just autodidact coordination memorization from playing over and over. There's no interesting difficulty about it.

It's like saying hiding system information in an RPG is a good way to make the game more difficult because the player won't know whether to select Fireball or Iceblast because there's no way to tell the difference.

(except League of Legends actually have - quite quantitatively - more skillshots than DotA, AFAIR)

 

[Excidium]

Inb4 Quake 3

 

[Zed]

Auto aim? Wat

We're talking about a silhouette arrow that points in the direction of your skillshot, it's like the difference between aiming fireballs in baldur's gate and temple of elemental evil... it's not system mastery, it's just autodidact coordination memorization from playing over and over. There's no interesting difficulty about it.

In a competitive game, there is. It adds to the learning curve. The whole becomes a more complex thing to master.
CS and Quake is all about this.
(edit: Excidium not Q3 explicitly, but well done)

It's like saying hiding system information in an RPG is a good way to make the game more difficult because the player won't know whether to select Fireball or Iceblast because there's no way to tell the difference.

I really don't think it's the same thing.

(except League of Legends actually have - quite quantitatively - more skillshots than DotA)

They also cost less and have less of an impact. In other words less meaningful "skill" shots. Botch a skill in dota and you may have lost the game. It's the difference between killing someone with a well-placed shot and killing someone by spraying shit senselessly.
Not to mention Dota has items like blink dagger and force staff (for all characters) which can be used in conjunction with skills (or to dodge them/escape).

 

[DefJam101]

quake 3 quake 1 quake 4 ctf cpma painkiller esports comp mlg lithuanian hitman

 

[Grunker]

In a competitive game, there is. It adds to the learning curve. The whole becomes a more complex thing to master.

Secret Shop =/= Mechanical Mastery, it's just time-based memorization or discovery. There's nothing interesting mechanically about a game of memory.

They also cost less and have less of an impact.

Thereby enabling players to test each other more often. The "less meaningful skillshots" means that the lane becomes more agressive. The skillshots aren't really that much more less meaningfull. As soon as you get an advantage from one or two exchanges where you come out ahead, you have lane dominance for that period unless the other player is able to make a sufficient counterplay.

Not to mention Dota has items like blink dagger and force staff (for all characters) which can be used in conjunction with skills (or to dodge them/escape).

let me tell you about summoner spells

 

[DefJam101]

to clarify for grunker while the "challenge of learning to aim by practicing over and over" is not in itself interesting the random and exciting element it introduces to gameplay is. action games are not the same as strategy games and they should not be directly compared

it would be like saying quake 3 is nothing but learning to shoot your rockets so that they always hit the other guy and never miss

 

[Newfag-er]

We're not gonna do it in this thread, are we?

 

[Zed]

Secret Shop =/= Mechanical Mastery, it's just time-based memorization or discovery. There's nothing interesting mechanically about a game of memory.

I disagree. There's plenty of logic which sticks like proper mechanics should. How FoW works up hills, how wards grant vision, how certain timings diminish damage, what sort of stuff the game consider to be physical or magical damage, and more. People master games like Dota and then they're good at it. It's like learning when to jump in Super Mario. When to use Protection against evil in BG. How long to hold the bazooka in Worms or Liero or some shit.

In Dota, I've seen tons of people start out playing like shit and then over time learning the complexities - everything from item builds, preferred roles, where to engage, quirks with skills, etc. This curve, once you get into it and master it, is what makes Dota fun and addictive. There's always that next level of skill to reach.

Thereby enabling players to test each other more often. The "less meaningful skillshots" means that the lane becomes more agressive. The skillshots aren't really that much more less meaningfull. As soon as you get an advantage from one or two exchanges where you come out ahead, you have lane dominance for that period unless the other player is able to make a sufficient counterplay.

I admit that I probably know (at least care) as little about LoL as you know about Dota, but take this as an example. Enigma jumps from woods and does Black hole vs entire enemy team, wiping them out in seconds - vs- Enigma goes hurr durr and accidentally blows Black hole on nothing. I haven't watch a lot of LoL (I avoid it), but I've never seen something volatile like that - something which is very commonplace in Dota.

let me tell you about summoner spells

Please do, I have no idea what it is.

 

[Grunker]

to clarify for grunker while the "challenge of learning to aim by practicing over and over" is not in itself interesting the random and exciting element it introduces to gameplay is. action games are not the same as strategy games and they should not be directly compared

it would be like saying quake 3 is nothing but learning to shoot your rockets so that they always hit the other guy and never miss

ARE UYOU FUCKDSACING KIDDING ME SA SYOU

I'm such a fucking easy mark -.-

 

[Grunker]

I admit that I probably know (at least care) as little about LoL as you know about Dota, but take this as an example. Enigma jumps from woods and does Black hole vs entire enemy team, wiping them out in seconds - vs- Enigma goes hurr durr and accidentally blows Black hole on nothing..

That example is so out of touch with the actual differences of ability impact that it highlights the absurdity of this fucking conversation. The difference isn't 200 damage to 1000 damage, it's more like the difference between 400 and 500 damage.

That said, LoL currently has a bit of an issue with bursty casters which makes your example a bit more relevant, but that's a side-note at most.

 

[DefJam101]

actually that trollface and the quake 3 comment was for excidium. the rest was aimed at you and was completely serious

 

[Grunker]

please do, I have no idea what it is.

did i just spend an hour of my life arguing with someone who does even know the fucking basic mechanics of the game he is arguing about?

my life sucks and I detest you Zed...

Every single item effect like blinking dagger or teleport staff is implemented in lol as two long cooldown ability slots. Before entering a game you pick the two abilities you will have (Teleport and Blink for instance) and you have them throughout the game (albeit with long cooldowns, though with shorter cooldowns if you take the appropriate masteries before entering the game - sort of like WoW skill trees). That's on top of a shitload of items with active abilities like Deathfire Grasp (singletarget mini-nuke that amplifies following magic damage).

 

[Grunker]

actually that trollface and the quake 3 comment was for excidium. the rest was aimed at you and was completely serious

in that case: youa re dumb

You can still fucking miss with skill shots even if you have a fucking marker. You need to predict enemy movement and take terrain and minion placement into consideration. Skillshots miss more than hit even for professional players. Your arguments are absurd and completely out of touch with reality.

Aim mod = automatic hits.

Skill markers = crosshair.

Is it really that hard to understand?