Pathfinder Advisors in Pathfinder: Kingmaker

[Desiderius]

That isn’t true. There are three. If you fuck up all three you suck at Loyalty and there should be consequences just as there are if you suck at melee or tactics.

Loyalty shouldn’t be easy in the Stolen Lands. Do you wusses all play with your mommy holding your hands?

are you clinically unable to admit that anything could possibly be poorly-thought-out in this game, what the hell

No, I like games with difficult choices that have meaningful consequences, especially when they shed light on similar conundrums that rulers have faced throughout history, and not just rulers.

I don’t like feral little fucktards who don’t even bother figuring out how a game works or why before they go whining to the devs to get everything nerfed into faceroll.

I don’t really like Tristian that much either - he’s too much poz and not enough man or god - but I know enough not to let him go when I have no alternatives, and when I do I don’t make up some bullshit about OMG betrayal!

And if I did wind up with no advisors for that slot I wouldn’t blame the devs for something that isn’t their fault, other than making Tristian too much of a fag.

 

[Desiderius]

Who molested all you tough guys in infancy so that you have no concept whatsoever of mercy?

The coldest and hardest fact of all is that there is no true loyalty without mercy. The Tyrant has always to watch his back.

That's what the Ravenous Queen quest is about.

He did not in fact betray you. He was bound before you get there to open the gates and take the Oculus. She would have found someone else to do that if he hadn't, just as she had to every previous kingdom. What he did do was help you defeat each of the challenges she sent, which he did of his own will.

[...]

Dunno, I'd say the quality of being "merciful" is somewhat lessened if the reason you're letting someone off is the loyalty of "owing them one." But that's rather beside the point, in Tristian's case what you know by the time you encounter him again - no metagaming! - is that he's infiltrated your court at Nyrissa's behest and has been running his own agenda without your knowledge. Whatever his reasons, he's withheld vital information from you and acted of his own accord in matters which concern your lordship, this is gross misconduct in his position and, yes, treason.

Now if you want to argue that a Neutral Good or Chaotic Good could forgive him, I have no objection. Hell, even a Lawful Good character may well accept his mitigating circumstances. I was rather joking on what state building requires - just rulers are Lawful Neutral, successful ones are Lawful Evil, and both execute Tristian.

If you can't hang Linzi why would you hang Tristian?

Eh, what's the point of public office if you don't embezzle a little?

I seriously have no clue how anyone can spare Tristan for any other reason except not wanting to lose another advisor. The guy betrays you and even makes demands after being caught. Even my CN char who literally invited everyone and every creature he met into his kingdom, killed him for his treason.

Make sure you buddy up with Jaethal and she'll stomp him a second time in HatEoT.

Not if you spare the Defaced Sister (note the mercy theme again) she spills the beans before you ever get back to him.

You know, the thing I just helpfully linked to for you. You fucked up. Own it.

There are also two hidden rooms in VTomb that tell you what the Oculus is and strongly hint at the (true) fact that it won’t do you any good even if wanted to keep it for yourself. Unless you’re NE, in which case what need have you for loyalty?

 

[Desiderius]

The evidence shows that he did not betray me - he made the pact before we met - but in fact the opposite, he risked his immortality and indeed lost his sight on my behalf. If anything I owe him one.

It may not be mercy for me to return the favor, but it is surely the bread and butter of loyalty to do so and the height of mercilessness to punish him for it.

 

[Desiderius]

Whether successful rulers are LE or not (its not) they sure as hell don’t inspire loyalty, which is the whole point.

If only all you would be Machiavellians would read him, and his predecessor Dante.

 

[Gargaune]

Not if you spare the Defaced Sister (note the mercy theme again) she spills the beans before you ever get back to him.

You know, the thing I just helpfully linked to for you. You fucked up. Own it.

There are also two hidden rooms in VTomb that tell you what the Oculus is and strongly hint at the (true) fact that it won’t do you any good even if wanted to keep it for yourself. Unless you’re NE, in which case what need have you for loyalty?

Your second screenshot? Yes, I read the dialogue, she says that Nyrissa trapped him and that his task was to "aid your ascension - and your fall. But his will was strong enough to fight her commands." Shame it wasn't strong enough to 'fess up. The earlier the better, but at least around the time there was a woman with an Owlbear trying to Xenomorph its way out of her ass would've been a nice touch. I mean, he tries to sway you in the right direction, but never puts his cards on the table. Again, whatever his circumstances, his duplicity in your company is a simple matter of fact, and how you pass judgement on that is down to your PC's alignment arc.

I'm also not sure why you insist it's a "fuck up", they put non-Good alignments in the game for a reason. Same as they put in other councillors, I've got no horse in that race.

 

[Desiderius]

Because we’re talking about Loyalty. I know you evil dimwits want your cake and eating it too but that’s no reason for the devs to let you.

Evil breeds disloyalty, that’s kind of the whole point. In any case there’s no reason for anyone outside of LE not to pick up Tsanna, and you’ve got Mervey. She should be right up your alley as written.

If you’re too big of a dick to countenance any of those three, what need have you of Loyalty at all? Not like not having a councilor at that point will cost you your kingdom.

 

[Desiderius]

He believed that Nyrissa had stolen his immortality. There was a bear that was driving home the point when you met him. Why would he spill the beans at cost of at minimum his divinity when he could honor both of his commitments by fighting at your side?

Given the history of the Stolen Lands he’s acting as a double agent on your behalf the whole time. The shitstorm is happening whatever he does. If he wanted you dead that would be easy enough. That would be betrayal.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Who molested all you tough guys in infancy so that you have no concept whatsoever of mercy?

I had to read Lenin's articles in school. He had very sharp and effective ways to foster "loyalty".

Nyrissa could have pulled off the Season of Bloom even without his help

How? I have not read any of Paizo literature, so would you care to explain?

Also, what's the point in killing an immortal creature anyway? As I understand, when the Baron has the choice to kill Tristian he already knows that Tristian is the agent of the goddess of resurrection. What's the point of cutting his head off if he can be resurrected the next moment?

 

[Desiderius]

Who molested all you tough guys in infancy so that you have no concept whatsoever of mercy?

I had to read Lenin's articles in school. He had very sharp and effective ways to foster "loyalty".

And how did those work out for him? Loyal people don’t require constant purges. Trump can tell you a little something about the difficulty of finding loyalty.

Here’s a little secret: he struggles with it for the same reason the complainers here do - he doesn’t show enough himself because he doesn’t know who his friends are.

 

[LannTheStupid]

And how did those work out for him? Loyal people don’t require constant purges.

Constant purges are more reliable than loyal people. The main reason Soviet Union fell is that no one purged it for 30 years.

That's why I have such respect for Xi Jinping.

 

[Desiderius]

The same way she’s done a Thousand times before.

 

[Desiderius]

If you hadn’t gone Godless it wouldn’t have needed it.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Yes, burnings in the name of a god are more efficient per head than concentration camps; on the other hand, in concentration camps people can be forced to work.

 

[Desiderius]

You’re off by several orders of magnitude. But that’s what commies do. That’s why your economy sucked so bad your empire collapsed. Looks like ours is headed the same way and for the same reason.

 

[moleman]

...Show Location Names should have been on by default, which would have given you a red exclamation point at the Ford.

That seems to be bugged. I started a playthrough last week and explored the ford before Troll Trouble. No exclamation mark appeared when Troll Trouble started.
Same goes for the dwarven watchtower where you meet Ekun.

That's why so many people miss these two.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

If you do at that point it isn’t game-breaking and reflects the choices you’ve made.

Working as intended.

Come the fuck on.

Your choices for Councilor are:
* Someone who betrays you mid-game and becomes temporarily unavailable no matter what.
* A snotty old woman you probably didn't pick up during the first act.
* A psychotic bitch who takes a while to become available, and she's easily missable as an advisor if you don't know about her beforehand.

You're the fucking monarch, it shouldn't be this hard to find decent advisors.

Actually, Tsanna is probably the best councillor of them all, she loves the people and works in their best interest, but doesnt flinch from cracking the whip if they go full retard

 

[Mark Richard]

If you do at that point it isn’t game-breaking and reflects the choices you’ve made.

Working as intended.

Come the fuck on.

Your choices for Councilor are:
* Someone who betrays you mid-game and becomes temporarily unavailable no matter what.
* A snotty old woman you probably didn't pick up during the first act.
* A psychotic bitch who takes a while to become available, and she's easily missable as an advisor if you don't know about her beforehand.

You're the fucking monarch, it shouldn't be this hard to find decent advisors.

As Desiderius points out, Tristian did everything he could outside of the bounds of his contract to help you.

My advice is to treat advisors with the value in which they've been assigned in the game, and don't operate under some preconceived notion that people should be lining up out the door for a job in your monster-ridden calamity-stricken shithole. You need them just as much as they need you, so throw them a bone once in a while (they'll quit if you argue all the time), and forgive the occasional transgression. It should be harder to be uncompromising when your position as a newly minted power is so tenuous.

 

[Gargaune]

Because we’re talking about Loyalty. I know you evil dimwits want your cake and eating it too but that’s no reason for the devs to let you.

Evil breeds disloyalty, that’s kind of the whole point. In any case there’s no reason for anyone outside of LE not to pick up Tsanna, and you’ve got Mervey. She should be right up your alley as written.

If you’re too big of a dick to countenance any of those three, what need have you of Loyalty at all? Not like not having a councilor at that point will cost you your kingdom.

You're going off point. I'm not arguing about councillor selection, my issue is strictly with you qualifying executing Tristian as "disloyal."

Given the history of the Stolen Lands he’s acting as a double agent on your behalf the whole time.

Yes! Except he does it at his own discretion, without the concourse of your party! He never comes up and says "hey, bro, I was actually sent here to spy on for that crazy nymph who wants you dead, oh, and don't drink the water, it's got Owlbear flu" - which would constitute pertinent fucking information to the act of government.

His agenda simply aligns with yours, and he's acting "on your side" without your adequate knowledge or consent, having chosen to deny you sensitive information and deciding on matters which are your prerogative. For the last time, try and approach this from a judicial perspective - regardless of his aspirations or constraints, Tristian's conduct at your court amounts to criminal disloyalty to the state, treason.

Now, considering his circumstances, is executing him merciless? Yes. Malicious? Maybe. But disloyal? Absolutely not.

 

[Storyfag]

Because we’re talking about Loyalty.

Bitch please. It is better to be feared than loved.

 

[Desiderius]

You’re missing the point of a main theme in the game - that Loyalty flows from Mercy, and likewise the contrapositive so that mercilessness can leave one without any Loyalty, reflected in the missing advisor.

It’s the same thing in the Tsanna quest and Ravenous Queen. On a more subtle level it’s there in the Mervey choice and on a less subtle one the Lantern King/Nyrissa.

You’re evil so this burns you like holy water, but the devs aren’t and that is reflected in their game design.

 

[bec de corbin]

Yeah, lol at mentioning Machiavelli while arguing that only good and merciful leaders have loyal supporters

 

[Storyfag]

You’re evil so this burns you like holy water, but the devs aren’t and that is reflected in their game design.

AKA

"Waah, waah, you're a meanie when playing make-believe!"

Get a grip, man xir!

 

[Desiderius]

Because we’re talking about Loyalty.

Bitch please. It is better to be feared than loved.

If you want your kids to take care of you in your old age you’d best start figuring out how to secure both.

Or you know if you want to spend your days rotting away in a prison cell like Machiavelli did by all means obsess on that one book like a Harry Pottertard.

 

[Desiderius]

You’re evil so this burns you like holy water, but the devs aren’t and that is reflected in their game design.

AKA

"Waah, waah, you're a meanie when playing make-believe!"

Get a grip, man xir!

No, the arguments he advances here are evil in their own right. Those who’ve been on the receiving end of true evil and true good have little trouble distinguishing the two and little stomach for making anyone believe one is the other.

 

[Storyfag]

Because we’re talking about Loyalty.

Bitch please. It is better to be feared than loved.

If you want your kids to take care of you in your old age you’d best start figuring out how to secure both.

Normal people apply different rules to statecraft, and different to parenting. To anyone wanting their kids to care for them in their old age, I would advise exactly that.

As to me specifically, Lichdom is where it's at, so no old age applies, thank you.

Or you know if you want to spend your days rotting away in a prison cell like Machiavelli did by all means obsess on that one book like a Harry Pottertard.

Except... he didn't? Died in retirement at his farm estate.