Pathfinder Advisors in Pathfinder: Kingmaker

[Desiderius]

You’re missing the point of a main theme in the game - that Loyalty flows from Mercy, and likewise the contrapositive so that mercilessness can leave one without any Loyalty, reflected in the missing advisor.

I rather see the foremost theme as the cost of ambition illustrated in the clash of kings, but fair enough, given what the devs consider to be the "proper ending", you may be on to something.

This is all immaterial, though, to lawfully recognising Tristian's actions as treason and that's a mere factual assessment. How you react to said treason is a measure of your character's alignment, and that is the moral choice the game presents you with, but you keep insisting that there was no grievance to begin with.

You’re evil so this burns you like holy water, but the devs aren’t and that is reflected in their game design.

I'm identifying the logic of the design decisions against those who claim this aspect of the game is poorly designed

I didn't say the game was poorly designed. I said your argument is.

Sorry, I'm afraid I can't see the connection between his make-believe preferences and his real life personality.

I fear this thread might soon be headed for another discussion on what an RPG is...

Your contention that he withheld information that led to needless deaths in ch. 3 has merit. I would need evidence that he indeed had such information and whether he risked blowing his cover to Nyrissa (costing the kingdom its double agent) before finding him guilty. At that point mercy would come into play, as would the question of whether undue leniency could itself spark disloyalty.

As I’ve said other alignments might settle that question differently, in which case they have access to Councilors which better fit those alignments unless mercilessness is their principal motivation in which case they will naturally struggle with Loyalty as reflected in the loss of their ability to advance their kingdom stat.

Those not paying close attention or who made a mistake can fall back on a mere if they feel this penalty is unduly harsh. I’d recommend another playthrough where all the mistakes made in the first can produce pleasurable performance improvements.

 

[Desiderius]

Of course no human is wholly good or evil, only their actions, such as arguing from mercilessness.

 

[Desiderius]

But seriously. By the logic of the game itself.

I think the game quite unambiguously teaches us that being loyal and good means loosing advisors.

Well, the devs having fallen away from their ancestral faith have naturally also fallen victim to the mismeasure of the Good characteristic of their age. This can been seen in both the unmanliness of Tristian’s portrayal and the genocidal zeal with which it is associated in other contexts (such as Ekun’s quest where you have to talk him into mercy against his “Good” instincts, which is of course nonsense as mercy is the sine qua non of the true Good).

Nonetheless their culture (beliefs made by their great literature) saves them and they portray the Good faithfully in the mercy theme which underlies the game, mostly manifesting itself in a sagacious forbearance.

 

[Gargaune]

Your contention that he withheld information that led to needless deaths in ch. 3 has merit. I would need evidence that he indeed had such information and whether he risked blowing his cover to Nyrissa (costing the kingdom its double agent) before finding him guilty. At that point mercy would come into play, as would the question of whether undue leniency could itself spark disloyalty.

I don't know if I'd call him a double agent seeing as he hasn't actually looped you in, rather strikes me as a rogue spy deserting Nyrissa and acting independently. Just how much he knew about the Bloom I can't say, save for that he clearly knew more than you, as evidenced by how he discreetly tries to steer you in the right direction during the vivisection scene. I'd also suggest that how things turned out in Vordakai's tomb made a poor impression. In any case, even the mere admission that he'd been assigned to spy on your court is information a ruler would legitimately want to explore.

And that's kind of my point, the honest thing for him to do would've been to admit his original mission, explain his circumstances and ask for your forgiveness and support. That he doesn't is understandable, fear and doubt are natural, but whether it's excusable or not is down to your PC's moral outlook. So, if you want to think of it in terms of court proceedings, the verdict for treason is always guilty, in that he's provably broken faith with you on matters of state, but the sentencing can account for mitigating factors (e.g. him being blackmailed into it, his attempts to covertly assist you in defiance of his mission) to the point where a Good character may deem a pardon suitable.

As I’ve said other alignments might settle that question differently, in which case they have access to Councilors which better fit those alignments unless mercilessness is their principal motivation in which case they will naturally struggle with Loyalty as reflected in the loss of their ability to advance their kingdom stat.

Those not paying close attention or who made a mistake can fall back on a mere if they feel this penalty is unduly harsh. I’d recommend another playthrough where all the mistakes made in the first can produce pleasurable performance improvements.

Like I said before, I also have no problem with how killing Tristian costs the player a councillor option, major choices with reaching consequences are par for the course in an RPG. Especially after the inclusion of merc advisors, even if you miss both Shandra and Tsanna, you can still run your court albeit (and suitably) less effectively.

 

[Desiderius]

Your contention that he withheld information that led to needless deaths in ch. 3 has merit. I would need evidence that he indeed had such information and whether he risked blowing his cover to Nyrissa (costing the kingdom its double agent) before finding him guilty. At that point mercy would come into play, as would the question of whether undue leniency could itself spark disloyalty.

I don't know if I'd call him a double agent seeing as he hasn't actually looped you in, rather strikes me as a rogue spy deserting Nyrissa and acting independently. Just how much he knew about the Bloom I can't say, save for that he clearly knew more than you, as evidenced by how he discreetly tries to steer you in the right direction during the vivisection scene. I'd also suggest that how things turned out in Vordakai's tomb made a poor impression. In any case, even the mere admission that he'd been assigned to spy on your court is information a ruler would legitimately want to explore.

And that's kind of my point, the honest thing for him to do would've been to admit his original mission, explain his circumstances and ask for your forgiveness and support. That he doesn't is understandable, fear and doubt are natural, but whether it's excusable or not is down to your PC's moral outlook. So, if you want to think of it in terms of court proceedings, the verdict for treason is always guilty, in that he's provably broken faith with you on matters of state, but the sentencing can account for mitigating factors (e.g. him being blackmailed into it, his attempts to covertly assist you in defiance of his mission) to the point where a Good character may deem a pardon suitable.

As I’ve said other alignments might settle that question differently, in which case they have access to Councilors which better fit those alignments unless mercilessness is their principal motivation in which case they will naturally struggle with Loyalty as reflected in the loss of their ability to advance their kingdom stat.

Those not paying close attention or who made a mistake can fall back on a mere if they feel this penalty is unduly harsh. I’d recommend another playthrough where all the mistakes made in the first can produce pleasurable performance improvements.

Like I said before, I also have no problem with how killing Tristian costs the player a councillor option, major choices with reaching consequences are par for the course in an RPG. Especially after the inclusion of merc advisors, even if you miss both Shandra and Tsanna, you can still run your court albeit (and suitably) less effectively.

Yes, I fail to see how someone like yourself avoids choosing Mervey then fails to either side with her or to broker peace between the Houses (a lucrative course of action indeed). The missing advisor problem would never come up for you, as it never has for me.

As it is there is no colorable case for it being bad design, unlike the Treasurer case (which is due to a never corrected wrong default that has ramifications beyond losing your Treasurer) or the lack of any relevant endgame KM despite a slew of buildings which have no other purpose.

 

[The_Mask]

I usually take these things in the way of ToEE. Characters should serve their alignments and the ones next to them.

Tristian (NG) serves: LG, NG, CG and TN.
Shandra (LN) serves: LG, LN, LE and TN.
Tsana (CE) serves: CN, CE, NE.

So, technically, if you roleplay according to your alignment, and/or choose as close as possible, you should always be fine. Which, in this case is true.

q.e.d.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Hm. I am OK with Shandra, and my Baron is CE. Perhaps I am not roleplaying Chaotic right...

 

[Sarathiour]

Hm. I am OK with Shandra, and my Baron is CE. Perhaps I am not roleplaying Chaotic right...

Chaotic evil is basically acting on whim with complete disregard toward other, or anything that does not concern your desire. They could technically be fine with anyone who is'nt lawful good, as long as those people does not piss him off.

Most of the time, that will be the other guy who take leave of CE. Normal people want to avoid working for/with a lawless murderous psychopath, that's like basic survival instinct.

 

[Jarpie]

Bartholomew should really have been one of the arcane advisors, I think he'd been very fun in the role. Although, there's already Octavia, Curator and Vordekai so there's plenty coverage.