Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Pathfinder Advisors in Pathfinder: Kingmaker

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Yeah, lol at mentioning Machiavelli while arguing that only good and merciful leaders have loyal supporters

One can be talked into N but yes E fails simple Prisoner’s Dilemma.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
The argument that you can't just appoint someone else to be councilor is dumb. Sure, they might not be optimal, but it's a lot better than nobody or a random mercenary you don't even know.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Normal people apply different rules to statecraft, and different to parenting.

Exactly so, which is why they've been running states built by better men into the ground for a generation and more.

Except... he didn't? Died in retirement at his farm estate.

What concern have you with death, Lich?

He did his prime rotting away at the mercy of a power he loathed, rather than in possession of the power you crave.
 

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
15,899
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre
Normal people apply different rules to statecraft, and different to parenting.

Exactly so, which is why they've been running states built by better men into the ground for a generation and more.

If you think those grander generations which built those states had a different outlook to that which I describe, you need to reconsider your position. You seem to be cherry-picking events to suit your narrative.

What concern have you with death, Lich?

It is a marvellous state, a doorway to limitless oportunities. It is my primary concern.

He did his prime rotting away at the mercy of a power he loathed, rather than in possession of the power you crave.

And yet the work of Machiavelli that so agitates you was written as advice to the very power he supposedly loathed. Doesn't that make you wonder?
 

Xamenos

Magister
Patron
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
1,256
Pathfinder: Wrath
The argument that you can't just appoint someone else to be councilor is dumb. Sure, they might not be optimal, but it's a lot better than nobody or a random mercenary you don't even know.
What exactly do you think hiring a random mercenary is if not "appointing someone else to be councilor"
 

bec de corbin

Educated
Joined
Sep 21, 2020
Messages
207
The argument that you can't just appoint someone else to be councilor is dumb. Sure, they might not be optimal, but it's a lot better than nobody or a random mercenary you don't even know.
What exactly do you think hiring a random mercenary is if not "appointing someone else to be councilor"
This started because Desiderius said you shouldn't even be able to do that, and it's actually rational and correct for only three people in the world to be able to even try solving those issues.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
It agitates me not at all. It's not an evil work. All the halfwit/illiterate motivated misreadings of course do when they're undermining other great literature, like this game.

Here's something all you little debbils might enjoy. Might even lift you up to LN for once in your miserable lives:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/195784.Machiavelli_in_Hell
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
The argument that you can't just appoint someone else to be councilor is dumb. Sure, they might not be optimal, but it's a lot better than nobody or a random mercenary you don't even know.
What exactly do you think hiring a random mercenary is if not "appointing someone else to be councilor"
This started because Desiderius said you shouldn't even be able to do that, and it's actually rational and correct for only three people in the world to be able to even try solving those issues.

Three people you can trust? Yes

This is Trump's exact problem.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
The argument that you can't just appoint someone else to be councilor is dumb. Sure, they might not be optimal, but it's a lot better than nobody or a random mercenary you don't even know.
What exactly do you think hiring a random mercenary is if not "appointing someone else to be councilor"
This started because Desiderius said you shouldn't even be able to do that, and it's actually rational and correct for only three people in the world to be able to even try solving those issues.

Three people you can trust? Yes

This is Trump's exact problem.
Say you're romancing Valerie.
Why wouldn't you trust her enough to be your councilor?
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Say you're romancing Valerie.
Why wouldn't you trust her enough to be your councilor?


Because she's bad at it.

See her own storyline for God's sake.

Just what we need - a kingdom full of drama queens.

See Trump's first ambassador to the EU.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
This started because Desiderius said you shouldn't even be able to do that, and it's actually rational and correct for only three people in the world to be able to even try solving those issues.

From a pure gameplay perspective to cater to the one playthrough crowd mercs with penalties are fine, but the lack of a councilor at that point in the game isn't going to kill you (in large part because there is no lategame KM, which sucks) and fits well with the themes of the game.
 

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
15,899
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre
The context of Garguane's allusion, also suggestive.

https://www.playshakespeare.com/merchant-of-venice/scenes/act-iv-scene-1

The devs are writing directly out of the tradtion of Tolstoy, Tolkien, and Dostoyevsky on this one. If that is cherry picking they've picked extraordinarily well. All that's lacking is the Chekov.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/87346.The_Cherry_Orchard

Are we discussing the devs and the make-believe game, or Gargaune's supposed real life evil as supposedly hinted by the arguments made itt, and *your* personal outlook on things?

Arent the two... separate? You're not claiming to be Owlcat, are you?
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Not hinted at all.

Proudly asserted.

I'm identifying the logic of the design decisions against those who claim this aspect of the game is poorly designed, as opposed to, say, lategame KM which is.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
As you’ve brought up twice now great art has the power, and it alone, to make beliefs so your real/unreal Motte and Bailey doesn’t buy you what you think it does.

Is P:K great art? Only time will answer that - much great art was mocked/ignored by the critics of the day while it did its work on the populace. The influence of great art of the past on these quest lines is unmistakable and argues against the original claim of bad design.

Would anyone argue that Planescape Torment hasn’t had a profound impact on the ethos of this very forum?
 

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
15,899
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre
Not hinted at all.

Proudly asserted.

Sorry, I'm afraid I can't see the connection between his make-believe preferences and his real life personality.

I'm identifying the logic of the design decisions against those who claim this aspect of the game is poorly designed, as opposed to, say, lategame KM which is.

You're trying to discuss two or three topics at the same time, jumping from Owlcat's inspirations* to supposed real-life statecraft of two generations ago**, to real-life personalities of your interlocutors. Untidy mess, that. Especially since the jumping is done haphazardly.

*Where does mercy breed loyalty in Tolkien's works, btw? It does breed good, but, ultimately, Bilbo's mercy to Gollum, and later Frodo's, did not breed any loyalty - the opposite, in fact. But that ultimate betrayal in the end resulted in good.

**
747.jpg
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Oathbreakers most obviously. The hands of a king are the hands of a healer. Ad infinitum.

There is no reasoning a man out of a position he has not reasoned himself into. I’ve charitably made a case nonetheless.

The burden of proof is properly upon The Accuser.
 

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
15,899
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre
Oathbreakers most obviously.

The spirits of Erech? They have been shown mercy after displaying loyalty, not the other way around, sowwy.

The hands of a king are the hands of a healer. Ad infinitum.

I would argue granting relief to the suffering isn't mercy. Forgiving past trasngressions is.

There is no reasoning a man out of a position he has not reasoned himself into. I’ve charitably made a case nonetheless.

And you have done so poorly, as demonstrated above.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
They’re Oathbreakers. They broke their oaths.

I’m done. Ignore.
 

LannTheStupid

Товарищ
Patron
Joined
Nov 14, 2016
Messages
3,195
Location
Soviet Union
Pathfinder: Wrath
The only reason to have a traitor as your one and only councilor is making consistent good and loyal decision. Otherwise, the other two councilors are available; and none of them pushes the richest part of the kingdom to secession.

Be evil. Be disloyal. Make Surtova Great Again!
 

Gargaune

Magister
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,136
You’re missing the point of a main theme in the game - that Loyalty flows from Mercy, and likewise the contrapositive so that mercilessness can leave one without any Loyalty, reflected in the missing advisor.
I rather see the foremost theme as the cost of ambition illustrated in the clash of kings, but fair enough, given what the devs consider to be the "proper ending", you may be on to something.

This is all immaterial, though, to lawfully recognising Tristian's actions as treason and that's a mere factual assessment. How you react to said treason is a measure of your character's alignment, and that is the moral choice the game presents you with, but you keep insisting that there was no grievance to begin with.

You’re evil so this burns you like holy water, but the devs aren’t and that is reflected in their game design.
:lol:

I'm identifying the logic of the design decisions against those who claim this aspect of the game is poorly designed
I didn't say the game was poorly designed. I said your argument is.

Sorry, I'm afraid I can't see the connection between his make-believe preferences and his real life personality.
I fear this thread might soon be headed for another discussion on what an RPG is...
 

LannTheStupid

Товарищ
Patron
Joined
Nov 14, 2016
Messages
3,195
Location
Soviet Union
Pathfinder: Wrath
But seriously. By the logic of the game itself.

First, the player accepts an incompetent potential general from Jamandi instead of an experienced diplomat from House Surtova. Because loyalty. As the result, he has only Tristian as an advisor.
Second, the player executes or banishes Tsanna, because accepting the cult of Lamashtu is Chaotic Evil, and getting rid of the priestess is some kind of good. Thus the second potential councilor is gone. Remember, this decision happens before Tristian's treason, during the Season of Bloom.
Now, being constistently loyal to his patron and consistently good on the religious front the player is betrayed by the only remaining councilor. And must either forgive him and reinstate on the important position - or hire a merc.
I think the game quite unambiguously teaches us that being loyal and good means loosing advisors.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom