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After playing a lot of JRPGs, most CRPGs became tedious

JDR13

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well the quality control and music bit are certainly true, many of the CRPG classics touted by the Codex end up requiring fan patches to fix gamebreaking bugs and you'd be hard pressed to find a CRPG composer with the cred of Uematsu or Shimomura, IMO.

That's certainly true *if* that's the style of music you like, sure.

As far as bugs, I'd argue the more simplistic nature of most JRPGs makes QA a little easier. It's also possible their programmers simply have a stronger work ethic though as well.
 
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Louis_Cypher

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Yeah I like FF 12 more than some of the classics TBH. You can treat it as a fun monster-hunting game.

I've completed
  • Final Fantasy 6
  • Final Fantasy 7
  • Final Fantasy 8
  • Final Fantasy 9
  • Final Fantasy 12
  • Final Fantasy 13
  • Final Fantasy 15
....as well as some spinoffs like Type-0.

Frankly a lot of them annoyed me at some points enough to ruin them for me. I especially don't like the sudden removal of player agency and plot exposition through huge cut-scenes. Or going two feet down the wrong corridor and accidentally triggering an hours-long progression of story when you just wanted to see what was in a chest. Or being forced to accept a party you really dislike due to these. FF12 at least avoids a lot of incoherency, as it's mainly plot-driven by understandable political goals.

I find I can't enjoy most JRPGs anymore, I've really grown to hate a lot of the genre. But it isn't true of every era or franchise; I recently played Phantasy Star 1 and found that fine. Early on, the CRPG and JRPG were close, so still retained many features like full party creation; later games turn me off, but there are exceptions like pure dungeon crawlers by Atlus.
 

mogwaimon

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well the quality control and music bit are certainly true, many of the CRPG classics touted by the Codex end up requiring fan patches to fix gamebreaking bugs and you'd be hard pressed to find a CRPG composer with the cred of Uematsu or Shimomura, IMO.

That's certainly true *if* that's the style of music you like, sure.

As far as bugs, I'd argue the more simplistic nature of most JRPGs makes QA a little easier. It's also possible their programmers simply have a stronger work ethic though as well.

oh of course, music and art are subjective which is why I left out art altogether but I'd say other than Soule there's very few composers in gaming, much less RPG gaming, that have the fame or creds of Uematsu. To be fair, console gaming in general before the PS2 era at least managed to have a signature musical style that's unmatched today. Stack up a classic FF game, a NES/SNES era Mega Man game, Zelda, Metal Slug... any of that up against 99% of modern game soundtracks and in my mind at least, the former is a clear winner. Not just nostalgia, mind you, but because the tunes have a distinct charm and character to them that modern games tend to lack in favor of 'atmosphere' or 'immersion' or whatever. And I'm not giving a pass to it just because they're chiptunes, I think certain modern games do manage to have soundtracks of their own like Metal Gear Rising that are pretty good and feel like an actual video game soundtrack.

Still, that aside, another reason for JRPGs having better QA is also because they only have to develop for one system in many cases while PC is a broad category of systems that all have different hardware/software configs, etc.
 

JDR13

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oh of course, music and art are subjective which is why I left out art altogether but I'd say other than Soule there's very few composers in gaming, much less RPG gaming, that have the fame or creds of Uematsu. To be fair, console gaming in general before the PS2 era at least managed to have a signature musical style that's unmatched today. Stack up a classic FF game, a NES/SNES era Mega Man game, Zelda, Metal Slug... any of that up against 99% of modern game soundtracks and in my mind at least, the former is a clear winner. Not just nostalgia, mind you, but because the tunes have a distinct charm and character to them that modern games tend to lack in favor of 'atmosphere' or 'immersion' or whatever. And I'm not giving a pass to it just because they're chiptunes, I think certain modern games do manage to have soundtracks of their own like Metal Gear Rising that are pretty good and feel like an actual video game soundtrack.

If you mean fame and credits within his own style of music, yeah, but I don't think that's very relevant when comparing to other kinds of music. And I say that as a big fan of Chrono Trigger and the older FF titles.

To me, there are very few JRPG soundtracks that compare to those in crpgs lke Gothic 1-3, Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Morrowind, The Witcher 1-3, and pretty much anything from Larian. I have fond memories of many NES/SNES tracks, but they're not something I'd listen to on their own.

As far as JRPGs go though, I particularly like the soundtracks of the King's Field series by From Software. I tend to go for the more atmospheric stuff like that though.
 

mogwaimon

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Yea, I mean it more as in fame/credits within the gaming industry as a whole. Like, personal preferences aside, soundtracks for games like the FF series, Dragon Quest, Zelda, Mario, Mega Man, they all pretty much set the bar as far as soundtracks go for gaming. Nowadays much of what's in gaming is either licensed or fairly generic orchestral stuff and...well, that's getting into more subjective territory, but I'd still argue that when it comes down to JRPG vs CRPG, there have been far more JRPG soundtracks that stand out and are almost universally acknowledged as exceptional than there have been CRPG soundtracks that have done the same, and that's sort of what I meant when I made the initial argument
 
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JRPGs tend to have much better quality control, art and music.

:notsureifserious:

I agree with him on art, WRPGs used to have great distinctive cartoonish art-style and 2d sprites based graphics back in the 1990s:

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wizardry-6-7-27149.jpg


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lands-of-lore-1.png


fallout_2_car_trunk_companion-1200x675.jpg



death%20knights%20of%20krynn-thumb-500x312-150019.jpg


eye%20of%20the%20beholder-thumb-500x312-150023.jpg

We don't have cartoonish games like these anymore, aside from a few indies like Grimoire and Aeon of Sands. After the 1990s, WRPGs went for realistic 3D graphics and started to looks bland and samey. Pillar of Eternity, Pathfinder Kingmaker, Tyranny, Legend of Grimrock, Badur's Gate 3, Skyrim, The Witcher, Divinity Original Sin all looks bland for me.

I take anime graphics any day over the bland realisitc graphics CRPGs we have nowadays, Metal Slug Tactics looks great:

 

TumblingTorin

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I like that JRPGs usually gives you this sense of adventure. Getting a ship and getting to go to places you couldn't reach before and seeing new scenery.

There's also the variety of JRPGs that play different.
Megaman Battle Network, Valkyrie Profile, and Dragon Quest all play differently.

And the different settings they try.
Shin Megami Tensei (Apocalypse)
Wild ARMs (Wild West)
Shadow Hearts & Koudelka (WWI Era)

I also get a get a kick when my fantasy characters have to fight robots or enter a scifi area. Reminds me of that one adventure in Greyhawk that involves a spaceship.
 

Falksi

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I really enjoy both, just give me the best of both genres.

Half the key to enjoying games is cycling them as you feel to keep things fresh. And part of that for me is also playing the right popamole games alongside either CRPGs or JRPGs to break things up when I fancy it.

Btw, if you're into JRPGs you really should check out:
  • Shining Force 2 (1 is worth a go too, just not as good, but maybe try that first)
  • Lufia 2
  • The Tales Series
  • Lost Odyssey
  • Shadow Hearts Series
  • The Last Remnant
Every cunt bangs on about Chrono Trigger & FF6, but I prefer those listed above.

don't get me wrong I like my FF6 but Shadow Hearts 1 & 2 are fucking awesome and Lost Odyssey is amazing. Haven't touched Shadow Hearts 3 yet but I hear it's hit or miss. Do yourselves a favor, if you only have time for one or two of the RPGs on Falksi's list try those in particular

3 is a let down compared to the first 2 Shadow Hearts game, but still worth a blast.

Have you tried Tales of Berseria?
 

JDR13

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Yea, I mean it more as in fame/credits within the gaming industry as a whole. Like, personal preferences aside, soundtracks for games like the FF series, Dragon Quest, Zelda, Mario, Mega Man, they all pretty much set the bar as far as soundtracks go for gaming. Nowadays much of what's in gaming is either licensed or fairly generic orchestral stuff and...well, that's getting into more subjective territory, but I'd still argue that when it comes down to JRPG vs CRPG, there have been far more JRPG soundtracks that stand out and are almost universally acknowledged as exceptional than there have been CRPG soundtracks that have done the same, and that's sort of what I meant when I made the initial argument

Those soundtracks set a bar 30 years ago. You can choose to live in the past and ignore all the great soundtracks that have been created since then, but that doesn't change the fact that they exist.

You seem to have a strong preference for Japanese style game soundtracks, and there's nothing wrong with that, but there's no objective measurement that points to JRPG soundtracks as somehow being more accomplished. I'm sure they're considered more accomplished in certain circles though.
 

JDR13

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We don't have cartoonish games like these anymore, aside from a few indies like Grimoire and Aeon of Sands. After the 1990s, WRPGs went for realistic 3D graphics and started to looks bland and samey. Pillar of Eternity, Pathfinder Kingmaker, Tyranny, Legend of Grimrock, Badur's Gate 3, Skyrim, The Witcher, Divinity Original Sin all looks bland for me.

I take anime graphics any day over the bland realisitc graphics CRPGs we have nowadays, Metal Slug Tactics looks great:

I couldn't disagree more, but to each his own. I'm not a fan of anime in games. I prefer a darker, grittier art style. I don't want to roleplay in a cartoon.

That's the beauty of having different sub-genres though. There's something for all of us.
 
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Thac0

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I'm very into cock and ball torture
I have fond memories of many NES/SNES tracks, but they're not something I'd listen to on their own.

I do occasionally pop in Distant Worlds to give it a listen.

Blinded by Light is also a ridiculous track.


I can also listen to Shoji Meguro for hours.


Also one of my favourite series of Japanese dungeon crawlers has Yuzo Koshiro, the Streets of Rage composer.


Serpent Eating the Ground is just an absurd track that mixes in all of the four already excellent Leitmotifs of the four heroes, and it is done by REVO who got very very famous with attack on titan. Pretty much the only reason to slog through the weak late game of Bravely Default.



Also well, Corridors of Time exists.




Gothic, Elder Scrolls and Witcher particularily have good soundtracks aswell, but in order to even call it a matter of taste you have to have an active dislike of JRPG style music. Especially after Soule got cancelled.
 

JDR13

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Blinded by Light is also a ridiculous track.


I couldn't stomach FF XIII long enough to sample much of the soundtrack.


Also well, Corridors of Time exists.


Every track in Chrono Trigger is pretty great. Uematsu's best work imo along with FF VI and VII.


Gothic, Elder Scrolls and Witcher particularily have good soundtracks aswell, but in order to even call it a matter of taste you have to have an active dislike of JRPG style music. Especially after Soule got cancelled.

You're joking, right? It's most definitely a matter of taste. You'd have to be pretty narrow-minded to believe otherwise.
 
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Thac0

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I'm very into cock and ball torture
I couldn't stomach FF XIII long enough to sample much of the soundtrack.

Yeah XIII is kinda gay. It only is a good game when listening to Blinded by Light in your car counts as gameplay.

You're joking, right? It's most definitely a matter of taste. You'd have to be pretty narrow-minded to believe otherwise.

No. While I believe that taste in art is subjective, I also believe that art has an objective quality. Van Gogh is objectively better than some random street artist you never heard of.
There are like five CRPG composers of note who can wrestle with the Eastern giants. Jeremy Soule, Marcin Przybyłowicz, Kirill Pokrovsky, Michael Hoenig. Then you add the guys who have made only one series, but that one has pretty kickass music. Guillaume David for 40k Mechanicus, Jon Everist for Shadowrun, Kai Rosenkranz for Gothic.
That is pretty much it for good music in Western rpgs. In almost all crpgs coming out you might as well mute the music, because it is just some ambient orchestra bullcrap without any meaning.

Now for all of the great CRPG soundtrack I'd say that there is only one who can actually wrestle with the Japanese top of all time musicians, and that is Soule. If I keep posting JRPG soundtracks here, even if I keep limiting myself to 1/composer, I will again be severily limited by the 5 media embeds per post that the codex has.
If I boot up a random CRPG I expect the soundtrack to be nothing worth remembering. If I boot up a random JRPG I can expect a soundtrack that is at least as good as Shadowrun.
 

Louis_Cypher

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Art isn't completely subjective, that is an agenda that we have been propagandized to believe because it suits empty consumerism.

The measure of art in the past was 'authenticity', i.e. how well the art reflects some aspect of reality, or the human condition.

Art's job was to convey eternal truth, whether that was soaring heroism in some classical soundtrack, or tenderness, or tragedy.

gZBO3Aq.png


So art raises our consciousness. A piece of wallpaper with a funny pattern on is decoration, not art. A piece of art can be abstract to some degree, but I would argue it must still be understandable to others or else it fails. You can represent something eternally true in a symbolic way, such as how Jung said our mythology conveyed psychological truthes. The Greeks believed that outward beauty reflected inward virtue, and when you examine this, it holds up well for art; the beauty of something is a judge of the truth of it and virtue of the message. It may be that art requires spirituality of some kind, whether secular spirituality based on cosmic science, or a traditional belief system, because absolute relativism only produces ugliness, and spirituality engenders a belief that there is a natural order. Even the earliest cave art, for example, carried meaning and truth for those communities, possibly representing their reverence for the prey they hunted, and how they depended upon animals for everything in a bittersweet relationship of respect for the animal they had to kill.

This is art:

d8t2H5R.png


This is not art:

dEcVRfE.png


Star Wars is a work of popular culture which explores the eternal truth surrounding war, ego, fear, heroism, tragedy and hope. It's imperfect, but it's earnest. It employs mythological symbolism going back to the dawn of humanity, Christian, Buddhist, Greek, Norse, Hindu, Japanese and Chinese. Star Wars' soundtrack is created by one of the finest composers of film scores. John William's 'Anakin's Betrayal' is an amazing piece of music for example. The second is just cynical deconstructionism with no higher loyalty to the truth or earnestness, and is ugly. Art which is ugly reflects the hangups of the author I believe. They can't see beauty, so they project this reality onto everything.

D4c6cEx.png


Polemic used to be especially warned against in art. Polemic is where you force a message, such as a political or social message, onto a piece of art, resulting in a dogmatic piece of propaganda for whatever you obsessively believe at the time, instead of allowing the full complexity of the truth to reveal itself. For example you might identify with a victimhood-based movement, but then be so polemical that you forget the truth that everyone suffers, not just your chosen few that you want to capture all attention and sympathy. It results in bad art that nobody wants to see, and relies on bad faith to draw an audience; never loyalty of the kind that franchises like Star Trek, Star Wars or Middle-Earth commanded. Invariably your dogma will be a simplification of reality, creating a kind of inauthenticity that is nauseating. Artists need to abnegate their egotism and desire to tell others what to believe, to be a good artist, because truth is beyond whatever opinion is fashionable, and the truth is unpalatable to ideology. Most Hollywood movies these days are infected by polemical ideological positions, and humanities graduates are often little more than activists for a given temporary dogma it seems.

ROuxCPZ.png


Naturalism is an important concept. Naturalism means that a piece of art attempts to be true to the reality of the universe. This is a way of approaching authenticity. So you try to make something that has the mark of realism. Bear in mind that nature does not mean 'green things' as in popular understanding, it means 'the universe'. Hence 'natural sciences' include the study of black holes and quasars, i.e. reality. Carrying say a 10ft long sword that weighs 200kg, but then not being able to open a wooden door, takes people out of RPG's immersion little-by-little as a small example. Naturalism would be to construct a more coherent fantasy universe, that people can get lost in, and easily suspend their disbelief.

High naturalism:

8UDDNjn.png


Low naturalism:

Lv9X31C.png


I would argue, as I have here before, that a lot of modern JRPGs suffer from a lack of authenticity and naturalism. They can come off as performative and emotionally inauthentic. They can lack the degree of naturalism needed to justify the action on the screen in some coherent way. It becomes too much after a while. By all means, be cartoony, but the best cartoons justify themselves internally through coherency.
 
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Pots Talos

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All this talk about JRPGs and no one brought up the best one ever made?
Random steam reviewer can't be wrong.

But on topic, I think the OP makes some good points. Though the best CRPGs beat the best JRPGs easily in my opinion.
9bbb6ba2e441e8b6817a5125151107f6.jpg


Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

volklore

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I used to play a ton of JRPGs when I was a teenager and now almost exclusively play cRPGs. I think JRPGs followed the exact same trajectory as cRPGs though, there is the 1990s and early 2ks golden age, PS2 has some nice ones but quality is going down and then it's one good game once in a while. I feel like a lot of people who never played JRPGs before get into games like Trails or Tales because they release on PC but for me those are the blandest shit. I used to like tales but literally every game in that series is the same.
The ones I remember the most fondly are :
-FFVI and FFVII: One being the typical epic saga and the other a more simple but elegant personal story. Both are a bit too long for my taste though. Length is always relative. Story can only carry length of a game so much, I find gameplay is what makes a game able to go in the 40+hours without becoming boring. (Small mention for FFX's turn base system which I liked a lot)
-FFtactics/TacticsOgre/FireEmblem games/SF2: Japanese Tactical turn based RPG tend to be really good imo. FF tactics has a problem of being a bit grindy early game and then break the entire purpose of the grind by giving you a super OP character that can solo entire maps in the midgame.
-Valkyrie Profile : Probably my single favorite JRPG. Really cool art (music and visuals), interesting gameplay, and great story (although you need a guide to get to the route that reveals the plot proper). The sequel is much, much worse.
 
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There are like five CRPG composers of note who can wrestle with the Eastern giants. Jeremy Soule, Marcin Przybyłowicz, Kirill Pokrovsky, Michael Hoenig. .

Bro, did you even Paul Romero and Rob King ? they both beat those 5 guys combined:



Might and Magic and Heroes of Might and Magic has the best soundtrack i've seen in any series of video games.

Heroes of Might and magic IV soundtrack especially, was orgasmic from beginning to end:

 

kites

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That is pretty much it for good music in Western rpgs

i mostly agree with you; but if soule gets a thumbs-up for his boring tripe, brandon and co. should get a lifetime achievement award for DX1. mark morgan is no slouch either, even discounting his leanings towards.. (tasteful) "appropriations" and "homages" - though if he wasn't mixed-up with Black Isle, i think the originally planned Lustmord-fueled PS:T ost would have been interesting..



i am also stuck in the past and incredibly biased
 

volklore

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I think it's undeniable that JRPG have more memorable music. It's also a different philosophy. cRPGs are more formulaic in their approach to world-building and 'immersion' and they write background music that supports a scene but also doesn't 'intrude' too much. JRPGs go all out all the time so yeah, they end up really memorable sountracks.
 
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I don't know, gold box have simple UI. Its all on the number pad.

I will probably try those games again soon, i've played a bit of Pool of Radiance, i don't remember the UI in that game being good outside of combat. I think i had to rest and memorize spells over and over again which was super tedious. Combat was great though.

Others games i want to play are the Jeff Vogel games: Nethergate, Avernum...
 
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mogwaimon

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I really enjoy both, just give me the best of both genres.

Half the key to enjoying games is cycling them as you feel to keep things fresh. And part of that for me is also playing the right popamole games alongside either CRPGs or JRPGs to break things up when I fancy it.

Btw, if you're into JRPGs you really should check out:
  • Shining Force 2 (1 is worth a go too, just not as good, but maybe try that first)
  • Lufia 2
  • The Tales Series
  • Lost Odyssey
  • Shadow Hearts Series
  • The Last Remnant
Every cunt bangs on about Chrono Trigger & FF6, but I prefer those listed above.

don't get me wrong I like my FF6 but Shadow Hearts 1 & 2 are fucking awesome and Lost Odyssey is amazing. Haven't touched Shadow Hearts 3 yet but I hear it's hit or miss. Do yourselves a favor, if you only have time for one or two of the RPGs on Falksi's list try those in particular

3 is a let down compared to the first 2 Shadow Hearts game, but still worth a blast.

Have you tried Tales of Berseria?

Unfortunately not yet, I haven't played many Tales games to be honest. I think I've only played a little of Tales of Phantasia, a little of some dungeon crawler spinoff on the PSP, and one run of Tales of Symphonia which was really good and I enjoyed it but out of your list Lost Odyssey and the Shadow Hearts games especially struck me more than ToS did. But that's because I like things a little darker and ToS is a more typical JRPG outing I would say.

Oh and I think I beat Tales of Eternia as well? It was so long ago it was kind of forgettable, but it was the one that came out in the US as Tales of Destiny 2 on the PS1 but it actually wasn't Tales of Destiny 2? it was the one where there were two worlds or something.

honestly I had more exposure to Star Ocean as a kid because Star Ocean 2 was fantastic
 

Puukko

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Let me invade this forum to ask a question. Is Final Fantasy 12 any good? I've been on the fence with it for a while.
I had a blast with it using the Struggle for freedom mod. Keep in mind that vanilla FFs aren't terribly difficult and are easy to break so that's a deal breaker for you then going modded is the way to go.
 

ChaDargo

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Could someone sell me on Nocturne? I've only played Person 3 FES. Not sure how much it would have in common with Nocturne, but I enjoyed the demon collection and the battles enough to beat it. The story was decent, but the high school shit nearly made me quit about 1/2 to 2/3's into the game. I can almost put up with skimming the dialogue to get the gist of the story, but having to actively participate in a high school visual novel was horrible.

But combat was fun and demon collection was fun. Dungeons were bland as fuck but that didn't bother me too much. I've heard good things about Nocturne, but I'd like the trusted codexer's to sell me on it.
 

Puukko

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Could someone sell me on Nocturne? I've only played Person 3 FES. Not sure how much it would have in common with Nocturne, but I enjoyed the demon collection and the battles enough to beat it. The story was decent, but the high school shit nearly made me quit about 1/2 to 2/3's into the game. I can almost put up with skimming the dialogue to get the gist of the story, but having to actively participate in a high school visual novel was horrible.

But combat was fun and demon collection was fun. Dungeons were bland as fuck but that didn't bother me too much. I've heard good things about Nocturne, but I'd like the trusted codexer's to sell me on it.
It has none of that stuff you hated and more of the stuff you liked. The story is minimalistic and the game relies way more heavily on armosphere. The difficulty is overblown but it'll still smack you around sometimes if you go in blind. You can spend a lot of time creating different demons though the roster is the smallest of any of the games, being 3D and all. Just note that while the HD remaster is a valid way to play, it's on the less impressive side of HD remasters.
 

Matador

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Could someone sell me on Nocturne? I've only played Person 3 FES. Not sure how much it would have in common with Nocturne, but I enjoyed the demon collection and the battles enough to beat it. The story was decent, but the high school shit nearly made me quit about 1/2 to 2/3's into the game. I can almost put up with skimming the dialogue to get the gist of the story, but having to actively participate in a high school visual novel was horrible.

But combat was fun and demon collection was fun. Dungeons were bland as fuck but that didn't bother me too much. I've heard good things about Nocturne, but I'd like the trusted codexer's to sell me on it.

. Very good dungeon crawling. You definitely have to manage your resources.
. Good encounters and bosses with the right difficulty.
. Good atmosphere: art direction, music.
. Good combat.
. Progression through demon collection, fusion and even evolution.
. No high schools shit that you didn't enjoy.

Basically reading your post, it's clear is a very good bet for you. And it's a masterpiece.
 

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