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Game News Age of Decadence Preorders Begin

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
Let's face it, daggers shouldn't be brute-force weapons wielded by Conan the Barbarian-esque bodybuilders, but weapons of finesse wielded by the sly, wiry guys.

Well, yeah, but from the logical standpoint daggers should not be a combat weapon at all - after all, in those times they were used more like a tool (turning into a weapon only in cases of dire emergency) and no amount of slyness would've allowed you to defeat a guy with a sword using only dagger in an open fight (well, unless the guy was a blind paraplegic, I guess). So it's more about whether you want to adhere to common RPG stamps or not and AoD doesn't looks like it wants to adhere to them.

You do get this nice synergy between high DR and high blocking probability. Even if you are hit, you high DR will anyway prevent most of the damage. That's not working with dodging.

Well, if you go into dodging you usually have max ap so you're drop those enemies much faster and don't rely on DR so much. You're not afraid of axes, either. And, if you are spearman (and spearman is the most enjoyable dodge build in my not so humble opinion) you're taking only fast attacks and against them crafted iron/steel manica is usually enough DR.



Oy, what isn't wrong with the game? The list is endless:
In my arrogance, I've foolishly decided to listen to people who enjoy the game and understand why we designed it this way, instead of listening to such intellectual titans and design experts as Pope Amole 2 (I can only assume that Pope Amole 1's posts were too deep for the unwashed masses and he was promptly banned - such a loss), Knotanalt, and Skyway.[/quote]

You would look absolutely kool and edgy, dude, if only your words matched reality. And they don't. Now, I don't say that you're actually listen to us, intellectual titans, it's a shame that you don't, but you're still fucking crumbling under pressure which is easily shown by the huge amount of changes that you are introducing to the game's system. Sure, you're not changing the CORE of the system, but you're doing some drastic and rash things with your balance (it's pretty cool to say that I just don't know the changes but I've read your forums so I'm not totally in the blinds as for what you are also planning) and the potential of this biting you in the arse is currently over 9000.

Not to mention that previously you told everyone to fuck off since "the system was tested for six months" and now you're suddenly doing huge rebalancing work - ri-i-ight.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
You would look absolutely kool and edgy, dude, if only your words matched reality. And they don't. Now, I don't say that you're actually listen to us, intellectual titans, it's a shame that you don't, but you're still fucking crumbling under pressure which is easily shown by the huge amount of changes that you are introducing to the game's system. Sure, you're not changing the CORE of the system, but you're doing some drastic and rash things with your balance (it's pretty cool to say that I just don't know the changes but I've read your forums so I'm not totally in the blinds as for what you are also planning) and the potential of this biting you in the arse is currently over 9000.

Not to mention that previously you told everyone to fuck off since "the system was tested for six months" and now you're suddenly doing huge rebalancing work - ri-i-ight.
Not quite.

First, "the system was tested extensively" was made in response to "combat is impossible", "the system is broken", "swords are useless", "ranged is useless", "spears are useless", etc. These statements are simply not true and the response was appropriate.

Second, I've never, not once, said that the system (or anything about the game) is absolutely perfect. We were well aware of the flaws when we released the demo and, for the record, the focus of the beta test was on quests, not combat. Needless to say, combat was one of the ways to complete quests, so we knew it worked well, but could use some work.

We simply didn't have time to touch the combat mechanics until now and releasing the demo was a great opportunity to see what needed tweaking.

Third, the tweaks are minor and can hardly be described as huge rebalancing work.
 

RRRrrr

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 6, 2011
Messages
2,308
As long as I can play non-combat characters the combat doesn't interest me.
I tried the combat, though, it felt rewarding most of the time.
The only problem is that I feel the game will be torn apart by "critics"and gamers alike. Just like when Apha Protocol came out and people were bitching like morons that pistols are not accurate without actually playing to the fucking tutorial and aiming properly. Just this time it will be bitching about the game being too hard, hard=/= fun etc.
Too many people found Dragon Age hard and ME challenging, ffs.
I just hope that the niche for AoD is big enough. And as far as this niche is concerned combat can be forgiven. But judging from PST or even Bloodlines I don't know...Perhaps gamers from this niche are far more likely to unite right now than they were in 1999 or even 2004.
Nevertheless, first AoD, now W2...there might actually be some hope left.
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
because in the end daggers were overpowered (and they were never meant to be played as "little swords" with a lot of damage) and two-handed didn't benefit much from a few extra points.

As I've already explained, those are very arguable statements, but ok, fuck it, I've invested enough time in the previous post and I see no need to waste even more of it on pointless arguments. I'll just say that you're release date is tad too close (considering you're not working full-time) to think about what was meant to be - it's more realistic to just polish what you already have, but, seeing that you're already changing everything askew, maybe it's too late to advise that.



Because the town quests don't really require strength, unless you're murdering your way through. It's much more useful in the ruins (think dungeons).

Ruins are cool and stuff, but it's not like there's zero opportunities to use high strength in the city. Take the broken tower, for example - instead of going all that "perception/crafting", why not offer a simple STR 10 check to force the grate open? Maybe not with your bare hands but with some form of lever or maul or whatever. And I'm sure other opportunities can be found.


You think?

Basically, 5 stats give bonuses to fighters. The problem is that most people prefer INT, PER, and DEX bonuses and are willing to sacrifice everything else. For most fighters 2 extra points of damage or extra 5 HP aren't as important as more SP, THC bonus, and AP. That's what we're changing.

Well, PER influence on the % of special abilities is huge and very important, considering that, say, splitting your opponent's shield in half ensures an easy victory - you're starting to almost autohit them, even with head strikes. And same can be said pretty much for every weapon - passive abilities are way too useful to not exploit them completely.

As for the stats - I think one of the major points of such sacrifices is that INT, PER and DEX make your character much more fun to play than STR and CON. Int gives you more skill points - more quest solutions, more weapon options (via crafting), more approaches, it's obvious. PER gives you cool passive abilities and nice hitting chances, allowing for weapon interplay and fancy aimed tactics. AP gives you more actions per turn - more tactical freedom. While high STR and CON give you exactly what? The ability to popamole better? I mean, 10 str, 10 con guy with shield and in heavy armour may work, but how droll will he be? That's why people dislike these two stats, I guess - other three make for a better gameplay.


At first. A beginner shouldn't use these attacks. Once your skill is high enough, you'll start fighting more skilfully.
That's in theory, I guess. In practice, raising your skill after 50 points gives you seemingly small increases (definitely not enough to use them reliably, the sole exception here being opponents who had their shield split - they're easy to bash in the head), especially when your opponents dodge & block skills also don't sit on one place.


...which is probably the worst way to fight, but what do I know?

It's easy to notice that I wasn't praising that style either, but with your focus on making con and str much more important, it seems like this is what you're aiming for.


It was easy to get high THC with small weapons and high PER and very little skill (the actual skill, I mean). It had to be changed.

Why? It makes the gameplay better by allowing more tactics and it's not like high to-hit chance is enough - without high STR, damage output is pathetic.


The SP bonus was too much, which is a problem because it creates wildly different skill ranges, especially if one starts farming SP and trying to kill as many people as possible (sometimes even your own allies). Limiting it to quests only makes sense and removes an exploit.

Your game is already about all about metagaming, so exploits actually make it better. I mean, from what I've seen in many years, people just love to exploit in RPGs, so what's the problem with it anyway?

They are paying the raiders the ransom and trying to get more bang for their buck.

Ass-pulled excuse, to be honest. No matter how you look at it, you're doing a big and a very hard job on both of those quests and even if raiders may not be a serious issue for daratans, aurellian outpost certainly is so I don't see why they go so skimpy on you, especially if you're the member of the house, especially when you manage to give them the working smelter (which, even if you don't know what it actually is, still remains a priceless tresure in the post-apocalyptic world).
 

Elhoim

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
2,880
Location
San Isidro, Argentina
Well, PER influence on the % of special abilities is huge and very important, considering that, say, splitting your opponent's shield in half ensures an easy victory - you're starting to almost autohit them, even with head strikes. And same can be said pretty much for every weapon - passive abilities are way too useful to not exploit them completely.

Perception doesn't affect the % of the special abilities, only weapon skill does.

Ruins are cool and stuff, but it's not like there's zero opportunities to use high strength in the city. Take the broken tower, for example - instead of going all that "perception/crafting", why not offer a simple STR 10 check to force the grate open? Maybe not with your bare hands but with some form of lever or maul or whatever. And I'm sure other opportunities can be found.

That's a good idea :salute:

Why? It makes the gameplay better by allowing more tactics and it's not like high to-hit chance is enough - without high STR, damage output is pathetic.

We've increased the base damage of daggers a little. Also, they have several advantages:

- They don't require much metal to craft, and the increases from masterwork and hardened are really good due to the amount of attacks you can make.
- More chances to get critical strikes due to the number of attacks.
- With the STR change they don't get affected by the STR penalties as much, so dagger builds with low STR, high DEX and PER are very good, especially with an investment in critical strike.
- Aimed attacks are cheaper, they are great weapons to inflict status effects.

Basically, we are moving them away from high DPS weapons to high CS and effects ones.

Ass-pulled excuse, to be honest. No matter how you look at it, you're doing a big and a very hard job on both of those quests and even if raiders may not be a serious issue for daratans, aurellian outpost certainly is so I don't see why they go so skimpy on you, especially if you're the member of the house, especially when you manage to give them the working smelter (which, even if you don't know what it actually is, still remains a priceless tresure in the post-apocalyptic world).

We are increasing the mine reward.
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
Perception doesn't affect the % of the special abilities, only weapon skill does.

Really? Strange. I checked that one specifically and it seemed like they did, must've fucked something up, I guess.
Still, that doesn't change the fact that the growth of the percentage is way too uneven, small bonuses on 50+ and stuff. And giving 2-H weapons a bonus to splitting chance also remains good incentive to have it high.

That's a good idea

Another place to implement high STR check would be the lock in aurellian mine - it's logical that you need to pick it if you want to go stealthy, but if you already killed them all, why can't you bash it open? After all, a terminator character is not likely to have high lockpick. He's not likely to have high lore, though, but then, who knows? If you say that CON and STR are vital for the ruin exploration, perhaps a combat loremaster will become a necessity.

- More chances to get critical strikes due to the number of attacks.

Yes, more chances, but isn't that just duplicating the function of short swords? They have the same "tons of crits" specialty, after all. And, TBH, it would be great to somehow buff the strength of player's critical attacks (easiest option here is crafting, I guess) - at the moment, they're kinda lackluster. They're really random and debuffs that they cause are often unsignificant - NPCs care much less about stat loss due to obvious reasons.
 

Forest Dweller

Smoking Dicks
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
12,373
As you can see we do have the group fighting mechanics in place, so all we need is a proper interface. I can promise you that if AoD sells enough, you'll get a tactical, party-based dungeon crawler very quickly (since we have pretty much everything - the engine, the combat system, animations and assets, etc).
So in that world then?

Will it be a "prequel?"
 

Elhoim

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
2,880
Location
San Isidro, Argentina
Really? Strange. I checked that one specifically and it seemed like they did, must've fucked something up, I guess.
Still, that doesn't change the fact that the growth of the percentage is way too uneven, small bonuses on 50+ and stuff. And giving 2-H weapons a bonus to splitting chance also remains good incentive to have it high.

We are revising them, they are like that since the old days of the 1 SP increases days. Now that it makes it harder to increase after 50/70/90, we need to revise the %.

Another place to implement high STR check would be the lock in aurellian mine - it's logical that you need to pick it if you want to go stealthy, but if you already killed them all, why can't you bash it open? After all, a terminator character is not likely to have high lockpick. He's not likely to have high lore, though, but then, who knows? If you say that CON and STR are vital for the ruin exploration, perhaps a combat loremaster will become a necessity.

We'll add some more bashing options.

Yes, more chances, but isn't that just duplicating the function of short swords? They have the same "tons of crits" specialty, after all.

Not really, the fast daggers can almost duplicate the number of attacks a short sword can make. More attacks - more chances to get a critical strike. Plus, the flurry attack increases critical chance by 50%.

And, TBH, it would be great to somehow buff the strength of player's critical attacks (easiest option here is crafting, I guess) - at the moment, they're kinda lackluster. They're really random and debuffs that they cause are often unsignificant - NPCs care much less about stat loss due to obvious reasons.

We have a crafting technique planned, you can see it in the journal:

"Serrated Edge – you’ve learned how to add serrations to your weapons to aid in ripping and tearing through non-metal materials. Serrations increase your chance to cause a critical hit, but reduce armor penetration."
 

Gragt

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,864,860
Location
Dans Ton Cul
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin
As soon as I find another job, I'll pre-order it. I didn't participate in the W2 kickstarter for that, and it's holding me back for the AoD pre-orders. :(
 

corvus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
5,513
4:30 PM - Majestic Strategist: it's so ironic
he was shitting on Oblivion so hard
4:30 PM - Majestic Strategist: and then made a game which did same things even worse

Skyway thinks Oblivion is better than Age of Decadence. :M
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
Patron
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
37,431
Location
Seattle, WA USA
MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
For those of us that pre-ordered this, it's actually called The Age of Decadence.

Just FYI. I was shocked.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
VD I think you shouldn't stop with AoD now that it's a massive success.

You need a Kickstarter.

Something like

Age of Decadence 2: The Father-In-Law of Post Apocalyptic RPGs
From Vince D. Weller, the developer of the award winning "no need to explore the quest compass location first, we'll teleport you there right away" hardcore game design

If pledges reach 1 million we will add a blue colour to an already stunningly rich palette of brown, gray and green.

If pledges reach 2 millions we will make it possible for you to play the game as a combat-oriented character.

If pledges reach 3 millions we will let you go to a quest location on your own.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,693
You know in pen and paper games, the GM usually doesn't describe the laborious process it took for the group to go from point a to point b. It's "Okay now we visit X" and boom you're there. This is partly why Troika's Hommlet sucks.
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
Patron
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
37,431
Location
Seattle, WA USA
MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
No. He's going to do his SCI-FI turn based game after this, or I will hunt him down and punch him in the face.
 

empi

Augur
Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Messages
452
Arguing that teleport to next location is worst than quest compass is a fair point...
 

Cassidy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
7,922
Location
Vault City
Arguing that teleport to next location is worst than quest compass is a fair point...

Except that Daggerfall and Morrowind were games where exploration played a big part before the total decline due to their very gameplay style, while in AoD they don't.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
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Messages
27,761
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Copenhagen
someday i shall endevour to track down the original phenomena that induced this astounding amount of butthurt in skyway

to boldly go where no man has gone before
 

skuphundaku

Economic devastator, Mk. 11
Patron
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Messages
2,248
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Rouge Angles of Satin
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2 My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.

Cassidy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
7,922
Location
Vault City
someday i shall endevour to track down the original phenomena that induced this astounding amount of butthurt in skyway

to boldly go where no man has gone before

I think it is related to someone claiming his beloved KOTOR and NWN were shit games.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Arguing that teleport to next location is worst than quest compass is a fair point...
It's not.

Quest compass is a problem in games revolving around exploration. Find X in a dungeon. Instead of exploring, looking for X, possibly missing it, the compass guides you straight to it, defeating the very purpose of exploring. Or find NPC X in some city. It's presented as a challenge, but it's not. Instead of having to ask around and look for that NPC, the challenge is to follow the arrow, which is what makes it so retarded.

In other words, there is a difference between creating a shortcut and eliminating pointless walking (did anyone enjoy running back and forth in ToEE's Hommlet?) and making you mindlessly follow the marker.
 

20 Eyes

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 23, 2010
Messages
1,395
Arguing that teleport to next location is worst than quest compass is a fair point...
It's not.

Quest compass is a problem in games revolving around exploration. Find X in a dungeon. Instead of exploring, looking for X, possibly missing it, the compass guides you straight to it, defeating the very purpose of exploring. Or find NPC X in some city. It's presented as a challenge, but it's not. Instead of having to ask around and look for that NPC, the challenge is to follow the arrow, which is what makes it so retarded.

In other words, there is a difference between creating a shortcut and eliminating pointless walking (did anyone enjoy running back and forth in ToEE's Hommlet?) and making you mindlessly follow the marker.

Why not just automatically resolve the battles?
 

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