Arcanum - worth a punt?

[Neanderthal]

Yeah shopkeepers for guns and tech have started telling me to fuck off when I tak to em, amazing reactivity in this game.

 

[Florian Gheorghe]

I even destroyed a knife because I suck at melee

 

[Phinx]

Game is also definitely worth playing down the tech tree. I can't remember the city off the top of my head (most likely Tarant). But a shopkeeper respawns the engine thing you need to create Automatons, think I had to save/sleep/check shopkeeper/reload if he didn't have the engine. Tiresome but well worth it, I managed to make at least 12 of them but had to stop due to stutter lag.

The feeling of casually going about my business whilst my army of Automatons beat up everything in sight, coincided with the cool bludgeoning sound effect was pure joy. It really added another level of immersion to my evil aligned character.

 

[Grape_You_In_the_Mouth]

I absolutely love it, one of the best games ever.

Be sure to try out the Leonidus mod (there's a thread on GoG), it makes items/combat/spells/tech much more interesting but the boss fights are long if you play turn-based.

 

[Old One]

Cheers for advice, i'm going to leave Magnus for now and snub him like the arrogant Elf bastard that I am.

If you're an elf necromancer it may be appropriate to help the Schuylers kill Magnus. You can do that.

Of the tech characters I've tried, my favorite so far has been an Herbology/Therapeutics specialist. He was half medical doctor and half mad scientist snake oil salesman.

 

[Snufkin]

Arcanum is fun game, but combat is made this way that you pwn everything or get pwned by everything. It's all about build. Pretty imbalanced. Fun fact - you can get elephant gun in Shrouded Hills which is 20-50 dmg rifle if you grind hard enough.

 

[Ladonna]

There sure are a lot of tough cookies at the Codex these days.

I have always enjoyed Arcanum, and even when it comes to the combat, it really isn't that bad. I remember when everyone was howling about the Dwarven mines and how terrible they were...however, I had already played through them, and found them a breeze...and the fact there was more than one way to complete them (as there is for almost every quest in the game) stood out as another bonus. Seriously, I cannot understand any CRPG fan, that doesn't have some very severe blinkers on (ie; Mondblut), that cannot enjoy this masterpiece. It still pisses me off to this day that Troika are no more.

 

[Snufkin]

Key to dwarven mines is getting scroll that detect traps. Also when playing arcanum its important to have few exit scrolls in backback, helps a lot when you finished exploring dungeon they teleport you to entrance.

 

[DraQ]

I've never understood what y'all fuckers see in Tarant.

Never will.

For me it's just awful. Yeah, it's fairly large but that's about it - it looks almost, but not quite, entirely unlike a Victorian city and it feels nothing like one as well.
To the point where some generic fantasy cities from non-steampunk games feel more Victorian without even trying to.

Tarant is very sparse whereas your typical industrial revolution city was very crowded. There were some wide boulevards, of course, but as a consequence of population boom and working class influx into the cities originally built for much smaller numbers of people and already crowded density, especially in working class districts, was very high. Tall buildings were the thing (to conserve space and to accommodate often massive industrial machinery) and the underclass crowded in shanties erected nearly on top of one another.

Meanwhile Tarant is all boulevards wide enough to serve as landing strips, incredibly regular grid layout (sure, pretty much all cities have tried to achieve a regular grid layout, but between radial spread and chaos introduced, by all sorts of factors, it pretty much has never been realized in full) and no buildings extending beyond ground floor.

We should have gotten this

but we have got this

Maybe at some point Arcanum will grow on me and I will actually love it and beat it instead of quitting near the beginning, but between shit combat, hilariously misimplemented firearms (one of the major causes of the former), "awsum" Tarant and generic shitfantasy bestiary I'm currently disinclined to actually give it that chance.

tl;dr
So far the part of Arcanum I liked the most was the main menu.

 

[DraQ]

Arcanum is hard for people to get because its strengths don't distill into the buckets that they've forced themselves into thinking with. Its main plot is a shoddy hack job - like IWD2's, except that one had the excuse of being written in a day. Its setting, in terms of the 'concept', isn't particularly brilliant. The point is everything else that flows between those shitty buckets.

(Neanderthal you might want to skip the rest of this post, I'd hate to ruin the fun you're having with spoilers.)

Are Arcanum's elves or dwarves amazing and unique on paper? No. Do they have amazing delivery? Yes. When you first meet Magnus, it's easy to tell how alone and out of place he is in a place like Tarant, even though he never gives such a sob story - right down to how you find him alone in a back alley. He does pummel you with this schtick about Dwarves and their last names... only for basically the third living dwarf you meet, in the Isle of Despair, to tell you that's typical city dwarf bullshit. Bates builds up the dwarves as technological wunderkinds, and they are, but the kind of technology you find in their architecture and their dungeons are very different from the way Bates has used the steam engine for Tarant. Nobody tries to beat you over the head with a huge tome about the History of the Elves And Their Distinguishing Features. Instead, the quests and other situations are used to communicate the kind of small, interesting details - e.g. how Elves do not marry, and how they struggle to understand even the point of murdering another elf.

What about the struggle between magic and technology? Firstly, points for taking a theme that RPGs have hardly ever really taken up, before or after, and making it central to the entire setting. Secondly, additional points for driving the point home right from the beginning. You see the downed vertiplane thing at the crash site; you meet Arbalah and his ability to curse and bless. You meet Jongle who introduces you to the whole split, and straight away the decision to support magic or technology is also intersected with a decision to kill an innocent and mentally half-grown dwarf, basically a child... and then you also get chances to double-cross Jongle. You get a sense of the regional geopolitics and the historical incline of technology over magic purely by looking at run down Dernholm (the shittiest looking place in all of Arcanum) and doing the Black Root mayor quest. It is also worked into the character system and the aptitudes in particular. When you realise Virgil's healing doesn't work well on you, and that you might need a technological healer like Jayna, or when the trains won't accept you because you're too magical, you're running head first into the sheer incompatibility between the two that puts them in conflict all over the world.

I haven't even mentioned the obvious All-Star quests in Arcanum which, for their nuance, can easily make any Top 10 list of RPG quests. The Siamese Twins mystery. The Caladon negotiation/assassination double-whammy.

Arcanum is awesome without having an emotional main plot and even with its notably clunky design, because fuck you, Arcanum does not scale to your level.

That's a really good pitch, however the main problem is that the moment you start the gameplay proper, exiting the main menu and chargen, it pelts you with the absolute shittiest aspects of itself and without any indication it's ever going to stop. Unless you really grit your teeth and keep getting pelted with turds you simply won't even get to know the good stuff is there somewhere.

 

[Old One]

Tarant is very sparse whereas your typical industrial revolution city was very crowded.

Tarant is sparse compared to historical Victorian metropoli I suppose, but I'm not sure that's a fair standard to use. It's not sparse compared to other game cities. In fact, as I've played the game over several years I've slowly discovered that many of the nameless pedestrians walking around actually have quest functions. And that's without mentioning how almost every building in the whole city has a quest function, or at least a function of some sort. The density of content in Tarant doesn't become fully apparent until you play a thief, because with that sort of character you can plumb the city for secrets, and there are many.

I see lots of people complaining about Arcanum's story, too. It's not great, and it's not on par with the story from Torment, or even the Fallout 1 story, but on the other hand I don't see exactly what's so horrible about it. It's better than the Fallout 2 story, for example, which by the end descends into pure farce - farce so pure it undermines the credibility of the entire setting.

 

[Tigranes]

Sure, I think a U7-style in-town opening where you get to toy with a lot of the non-combat options and experience some quests would have served it much better. But on the Codex of all places, a bad opening should be no excuse and shame on the player. You people played through the Temple of Trials, you can drag your arse to Tarant.

And for the aesthetic design of Tarant, yes, it is the weakest part, and I'm pretty sure it was simply the limitations of the assets they were working with. I doubt the Arcanum engine, similar to FO1/2 level editors, was capable of narrow, winding streets and the like, nor was it capable of shanty town style hovels piled on top of and across one another. It was the easiest for them to plop down some identical looking Fallouty shacks. That doesn't excuse it at all - it's a key weakness - but everything else about Tarant is amazing and you'll know this when you've done the quests.

 

[DraQ]

Tarant is very sparse whereas your typical industrial revolution city was very crowded.

Tarant is sparse compared to historical Victorian metropoli I suppose, but I'm not sure that's a fair standard to use. It's not sparse compared to other game cities.

Except it is. BG2's Athkatla was densely built and organic looking. Even tile-based Fallouts did much more convincing job with cities and had ways to portray multi-story structures without interfering with gameplay.
Most games that came afterwards also did much better in regards to verticality and crampedness.

In fact, as I've played the game over several years I've slowly discovered that many of the nameless pedestrians walking around actually have quest functions.

That's fine, but I'm speaking of physical layout and design of the city itself, which is the part that hits well before you interact with anyone or anything and keeps hitting you during those interactions and well afterwards.

The density of content in Tarant

...would be already greatly improved by squeezing down most of the streets.

Sure, I think a U7-style in-town opening where you get to toy with a lot of the non-combat options and experience some quests would have served it much better. But on the Codex of all places, a bad opening should be no excuse and shame on the player. You people played through the Temple of Trials, you can drag your arse to Tarant.

And then discover that Tarant sucks too.

And for the aesthetic design of Tarant, yes, it is the weakest part, and I'm pretty sure it was simply the limitations of the assets they were working with.

They were working with a concept of their own, presented in the manner they chose using engine they wrote and assets they created for it. All the limitations they faced were self-inflicted. They have no one to blame but themselves for trying to make fantasy industrial revolution game and completely missing the mark on "industrial revolution" part.
Besides, they say that limitations foster creativity, although Arcanum doesn't exactly make it evident.

I doubt the Arcanum engine, similar to FO1/2 level editors, was capable of narrow, winding streets and the like, nor was it capable of shanty town style hovels piled on top of and across one another. It was the easiest for them to plop down some identical looking Fallouty shacks.

Well, half of Fallout was shanties. Fallout also did much better way disguising its repetitive tiled nature with its diverse and versatile tilesets, could deal with multi-level structures and had much better looking tiles as well. Then there was FoT.

In Arcanum there was very limited tile variety and everything looked incredibly sterile apart from occasional lonely garbage barrel sticking out like sore thumb out of immaculate boulevard pavement. Making narrow, winding streets would just be a matter of making tiles for more than 2 wall orientations and some corners to bridge stuff. Multi-story structures could be displayed as in Fallouts, with some extra code to hide anything in front of the player to make up for the fact that Arcanum didn't have nukes reducing everything to ground floor dropping around, and they would help make Arcanum less sparse.
More tile variants, especially of run-down variety, some facades and misc doodads would also go a long way making Arcanum look lived-in.
Making streets narrow is just a matter of making them narrow - as long as a character or ideally two characters can pass you're good.

That doesn't excuse it at all - it's a key weakness - but everything else about Tarant is amazing and you'll know this when you've done the quests.

As a matter of fact I dropped my first and only Arcanum playthrough when that elven twins skulls (IIRC) quest broke down on me.

 

[Neanderthal]

The skulls quest really interests me, I assume it's based on the two real life twins who thrilled Victorian society, can't remember their names but I think they were Chinese immigrants. Apparently they were massively dissimilar, one a scoundrel, the other a saint and it was discovered after their death that they were linked by a mere scrap of fatty tissue so could have been seperated at any time.

The painting quest was interesting too, linked in to quite a few others and lots of options available for it, don't know who the bloody hell Kerghan and Persephone (well I know the Greek bird) are but it looked nice.

Gilbert Bates is a real interesting bloke I thiink, glad I didn't take Appleby's quest to try and ruin him.

 

[Tigranes]

DraQ I don't recall saying that those reasons excuse Tarant's aesthetic failure. Probably because I didn't. You're also being facile, probably deliberately so (because I know you know better), on some points: e.g. no Fallout/Arcanum town ever features winding two-person narrow roads weaved around multi-story shanty houses, because you'd immediately see every critter on the map collide into each other and never get anywhere. Or, rather, you wouldn't, because you wouldn't be able to see anything half the time. How did the skull quest "break down", anyway? Did it bug out?

Neanderthal You mean Chang and Eng, probably. Somewhat, but the story actually turn out to explain a lot about Tarant's history / geopolitics. You'll learn more about Kerghan in due time. Bates is an interesting guy, but there are several ways to handle that path.

 

[Shadenuat]

Arcanum is good
play Arcanum
DraQ just feels insecure about loving one broken game so he harasses another game broken in a way he doesn't like

pretty arcanum

Spoiler

P.S. You need to know game well to understand the nuances of it's story and themes. Main plot doesn't do the job. If you never brought some characters to NPCs, asked Virgil about death, found truth about Panarii or discussed dwarven philosophy, much charm is lost and you d fail to see what people like about the story and all the perfect "deliveries" Tigranes talked about.

 

[Animal]

Already feel like replaying it!

 

[DraQ]

DraQ I don't recall saying that those reasons excuse Tarant's aesthetic failure. Probably because I didn't.

You even specifically stated that you did not:

That doesn't excuse it at all - it's a key weakness

So I don't claim that you did.

no Fallout/Arcanum town ever features winding two-person narrow roads weaved around multi-story shanty houses, because you'd immediately see every critter on the map collide into each other and never get anywhere. Or, rather, you wouldn't, because you wouldn't be able to see anything half the time.

Fallout already had ways to selectively draw scenery depending on player's position, and had a handful of multi story buildings. There is no reason why Arcanum couldn't just abstain from drawing buildings in front of the player in the same way Fallout stopped drawing upper floors and roofs when you got inside - it's just a simple coordinate check. There is no reason upper floors of an entire city couldn't be made using Master's Cathedral method:

Possibly even with occasional bridge and ability to shoot from one building into another.

And that's pretty much the least that could have been done - FO:T featured actual z-axis gameplay like shooting from higher elevations (like roofs or exterior staircases) using similar isometric perspective, besides using 2D iso to fake or emulate z-axis is an old trick - I played c64 games doing just that.
Then there is the matter of sterility - Tarant (more like Taran't, actually) could have and should have been a much more cluttered environment and if it wasn't there is no excuse, because all Fallouts already were.
Disrupting typical isometric layout by having more than two wall directions would also be a massive improvement and if it couldn't be done without some cuts I would gladly sacrifice about half of Arcanum's shitfantasy menagerie of assorted goblinoids (Kites, I think) and other such standard fantasy filler monsters - Not having to model, animate and render those would certainly free up enough time and space for extra wall assets.

How did the skull quest "break down", anyway? Did it bug out?

IIRC an NPC failed to show up.

Arcanum is good
play Arcanum
DraQ just feels insecure about loving one broken game so he harasses another game broken in a way he doesn't like

pretty arcanum

Spoiler

And that only highlights the problem with Tarant. Arcanum could be pretty at times and even was. It could have had interesting environments and did, even if it wasn't very well suited to have some of them in the first place. It just dropped the ball on the environments that were arguably the rationale for the entire setting and the main thing making it unique. Because.

And yeah, Arcanum *IS* eerily similar to those particular broken games I happen to like a lot. The main difference is that those games frontload some good stuff, there comes some disappointing manure under which true gems lie buried - Arcanum skips straight to the manure.
I did try to play and like Arcanum but so far unsuccessfully. I can full believe that it's a huge motherlode of gems deep inside, but the main problem so far has been getting there.

Arcanum desperately needs two things overhauled - technological weapons, especially firearms (ammo!!!!) and explosives (herp derp), and Tarant (possibly along with some other locations) - just redo the entire fucking city and transplant the existing content there altering it as needed.

 

[Shadenuat]

What's wrong with explosives?
If you only played to Tarant you should have found them quite useful. Latter ones lose some oomph but molotovs, stun grenades, explosive bombs and tnt are all very useful. Even MCA managed to use them right.

Arcanum skips straight to the manure.

Emotions. Shrouded Hills is way better than many beginning areas like Temple of Trials. It's already packed with content and plot hooks and even used later in the game.

 

[DraQ]

What's wrong with explosives?
If you only played to Tarant you should have found them quite useful. Latter ones lose some oomph but molotovs, stun grenades, explosive bombs and tnt are all very useful. Even MCA managed to use them right.

Of course they are useful. They are even more hilariously broken and spammable than vanilla Morrowind's mechinegun enchantments.
Other than that they have beyond stupid miss mechanics.

 

[Neanderthal]

There's some weird fucking Halflings around Blackroot, with some crappy riddles, and now they owe me. Decided to help the town stay loyal to Dernholm and King Praetor, I know he's a dick but I think Tarant needs some opposition. Came across a demonic portal and got fucking owned, decided to get the fuck out of Dodge straight away, come back later I think. Got Garfield some Barbarian armour however. On the up with Praetorr now, wants me to find his kiddy.

Think it's time I stopped fucking around and got to the Black Mountains, still haven't done anything east of Tarant as i'm assuming that'll open up later.

 

[Tigranes]

DraQ It is certainly possible. I suppose if I were on the Arcanum team, I would have argued that building the entire city that way would have resulted in an extremely claustrophobic and frustrating experience - despite my own inner history-nerd wanting a more accurate Victorian city. I don't think Fallout would have benefited from more buildings done like the Cathedral, either. It was OK to have a few buildlings like that, but your own screenshots show how awkward it is, and I think we all remember how often party members would get stuck, too. I think the FO style level development works best with relatively square gridded layouts, interspersed with custom-art "showcase" pieces made of large single-piece facades (which Arcanum in fact use to great effect in Dernholm castle, Caladon castle, Roseborough inn, Bates' residence, Qintarra/Tsen'Ang trees, etc). Anyway, on the whole, I do agree with you that Arcanum does its best to frontload its frustrating aspects - which is sadly why it tanked so bad in sales on release, I'd think.

The weird halflings - there's other weird easter eggs worth their while in Arcanum which reward you for aimlessly wandering the world map.

You should visit Ashbury, to the east of Tarant, which you can reach by foot (go straight east of Tarant until the shore) or by the train. I'd say reaching level 20 before BMC should save you some pain.

 

[Ninjerk]

20?

 

[Tigranes]

Given how many people ragequit saying how difficult BMC is, and given how many people completely don't understand Arcanum combat mechanics on their first try, it's a super safe figure. But maybe I'm just being a pussy about it. 15 should be more than enough.

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS NOT LIEKKING ARCANUM UIS A CRITICAL CHARACTAR FLAW

IT IS A BEAUTIFUL GEM THAT IS CVOVERED IN A THIN LAYER OF SHIT BUT FUCK THERE IS A DIAMOND UNDER THAT LITTLE BIT OF SHIT

BRO I PLAYED THROUGH AS A GUNSLUINGER WITH LITTLE TROUBLE