Are casual gamers ruining it for the rest of us?

[JarlFrank]

Bottom line: seeking some common ground with which to appear to all "casual gamers" is an excercise in futility. We hardcore gamers are 1000% more predictable, each of us knows exactly what he wants in his games and it should be done. An average non-gaming person's possible gaming interest is as predictable as molecular brownian movement.

Yes, you might be more predictable, but how many hardcore games did you purchase last year? I'm not talking about how many you played (rented, borrowed from a friend, bundled with hardware, acquired a more illicet way, etc), but how many did you purchase?

In the end, what is made comes down to money.

I would purchase Wizardry 9 if it came out now. I would purchase Arcanum 2 if it came out now. I would also purchase PST 2 if it came out now. The problem? They're not coming out.

The real question is: "When was the last time a hardcore game that you would have wanted to buy was actually released?", not "Did you buy any hardcore game this year?"

When none are made, I can't buy none. LOGIC, man. Logic.

 

[BehindTimes]

I would purchase Wizardry 9 if it came out now. I would purchase Arcanum 2 if it came out now. I would also purchase PST 2 if it came out now. The problem? They're not coming out.

The real question is: "When was the last time a hardcore game that you would have wanted to buy was actually released?", not "Did you buy any hardcore game this year?"

When none are made, I can't buy none. LOGIC, man. Logic.

The problem is, that's not logic. It's not about if there are no games you want, you'll buy none. To the developer, it's about that you didn't buy games, whereas the casual gamer did. Thus, they are the customer, not you.

It's nice to believe that you'd purchase Wizardry 9, Aracnum 2, etc., but the sales figures state otherwise, for people as a whole. And developing games is a business. Sadly, it's not about producing good games, rather, producing games which will turn a profit. And you just can't look at sales figures, you have to look at the overall profit of a title. If a game sells 8 million copies, but makes less of a profit than 40 casual games, which were made in the same time period, and cost total the same as the one big figure, the casual game genre will be where the developers go.

And unfortunately, you do get into the chicken and egg situation, where a developer makes a bad hardcore game which doesn't sell, and they look at it as a generalized rule that hardcore games don't sell.

If you want to become the customer again, you'll need to purchase a game which is worthy of buying, and yes, they exist, even if it's an indie game, and not a big studio game. Or, at least comprimise and purchase something that's closer to what you want. But not just you. You'll need yourself, and about 3 million friends to all do the same.

 

[xuerebx]

Most of my friends who aren't much into gaming prefer some four to eight years old racing games and some classic multiplayer FPSes like Quake and Unreal Tournament over what is currently marketed as "casual games".

The problem isn't casual gaming by itself. Solitaire, online freecell, run-of-the-mill multiplayer FPSes and racing games never harmed other genres. The problem is the insistence in trying to "convert" genres that aren't appropriate for casual gaming at all into the fad, and what can only be described as an attempt to draw the target audience from movies and brainless TV shows into games.

This. Besides, I don't know of any casual gamer (and by this I mean someone who barely plays any games) who eagerly waits for the latest games supposedly targeting at him. Let's take action RPGs for example, like Fallout 3. The people I know who played (and may or may not have liked the game) the game, were 'hardcore' FPS gamers, certainly not 'casual' gamers.

The problem are developers who only want to create games for that demography. Why can't there be games for casual gamers and other games for game enthusiasts?

 

[OSK]

The problem are developers who only want to create games for that demography. Why can't there be games for casual gamers and other games for game enthusiasts?

That's what's happening. "Indie" = enthusiasts. "Mainstream" = casual.

 

[St. Toxic]

What's a "gamer" and how do you kill it?

 

[elander_]

The problem are developers who only want to create games for that demography. Why can't there be games for casual gamers and other games for game enthusiasts?

Short answer the money makers control everything and they don't want to make money for what they think it's only a few miserable bucks.

 

[St. Toxic]

Short answer the money makers control everything and they don't want to make money for what they think it's only a few miserable bucks.

Can someone translate?

Jewish bankers (federal bank) control everything, and they don't want to print any money because they believe it's only a few miserable bucks? Or maybe they don't want to distribute their money to a public consisting simply of a handful of male deer? I can't get my head around it at all.

 

[elander_]

I can't get my head around it at all.

They don't want your nerd money.

How do you suggest they make a game that pleases both casuals and old players? These groups have very different game preferences. It would be like making two games in one and trying to make them work together. My guess is that in their heads the costs that come from the extra programming and testing effort is not worth it.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

If a game sells 8 million copies, but makes less of a profit than 40 casual games, which were made in the same time period, and cost total the same as the one big figure, the casual game genre will be where the developers go.

Only because most of the industry is completely incapable of understanding that niche products need to be budgeted to a niche scale. Like Crysis. The number of people with high-end gaming rigs who are into that kind of FPS wasn't huge, yet their budget was. Instead of making excuses like "piracy", "it's too inaccessible", and such companies need to man the fuck up and realize they aren't running their business in a sustainable way.

 

[DraQ]

I think you can expect flood of awesome, yet buggy and badly translated eastern European games.

 

[Cassidy]

I can't get my head around it at all.

How do you suggest they make a game that pleases both casuals and old players?.

Releasing a final version based on the 0.02 Alpha game content for casuals(with exception of graphics which should be the same of the final version, of course) with 1% of the quests/optional missions/etc, challenges and optional areas, then the full game content for the hardcore. Use "... Edition" to differentiate both.

 

[St. Toxic]

They don't want your nerd money.

Why? What's wrong with my money?

How do you suggest they make a game that pleases both casuals and old players?

I don't. And how old are we talking here? 50? 60?

These groups have very different game preferences. It would be like making two games in one and trying to make them work together.

Because that doesn't happen ON A DAILY BASIS, right?

My guess is that in their heads the costs that come from the extra programming and testing effort is not worth it.

Which is why we only get buggy shit these days.

 

[elander_]

then the full game content for the hardcore. Use "... Edition" to differentiate both.

Someone would have to make this hardcore content, diverting man power from working on a much more profitable mass market game that doesn't need complex gameplay, quality writing, a consistent setting or deep choices. The decision for the money makers would be obvious.

 

[Cassidy]

then the full game content for the hardcore. Use "... Edition" to differentiate both.

Someone would have to make this hardcore content, diverting man power from working on a much more profitable mass market game that doesn't need complex gameplay, quality writing, a consistent setting or deep choices. The decision for the money makers would be obvious.

Cell phones are probably one of the most mass marketed platforms ever, where shit that no PC user would pay for sells. The decision for money makers who are in the wrong place by even caring about releasing PC ports is obvious.

 

[elander_]

These groups have very different game preferences. It would be like making two games in one and trying to make them work together.

Because that doesn't happen ON A DAILY BASIS, right?

Mixing hardcore games with massified games that please both groups? I don't think so.

My guess is that in their heads the costs that come from the extra programming and testing effort is not worth it.

Which is why we only get buggy shit these days.

Nothing to do with my argument.

Cell phones are probably one of the most mass marketed platforms ever, where shit that no PC user would pay for sells. The decision for money makers who are in the wrong place by even caring about releasing PC ports is obvious.

Cell phones don't compare to the PC and console market. It's only a small drop in the profit of game publishers.

 

[Volourn]

Wow.. The other thread basically covers this too. Cell phones, dumbing down, hardcore vs casual. R00fles!

 

[Helton]

Customers in Industry - A good thing?

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

I would purchase Wizardry 9 if it came out now. I would purchase Arcanum 2 if it came out now. I would also purchase PST 2 if it came out now. The problem? They're not coming out.

The real question is: "When was the last time a hardcore game that you would have wanted to buy was actually released?", not "Did you buy any hardcore game this year?"

When none are made, I can't buy none. LOGIC, man. Logic.

The problem is, that's not logic. It's not about if there are no games you want, you'll buy none. To the developer, it's about that you didn't buy games, whereas the casual gamer did. Thus, they are the customer, not you.

It's nice to believe that you'd purchase Wizardry 9, Aracnum 2, etc., but the sales figures state otherwise, for people as a whole. And developing games is a business. Sadly, it's not about producing good games, rather, producing games which will turn a profit. And you just can't look at sales figures, you have to look at the overall profit of a title. If a game sells 8 million copies, but makes less of a profit than 40 casual games, which were made in the same time period, and cost total the same as the one big figure, the casual game genre will be where the developers go.

And unfortunately, you do get into the chicken and egg situation, where a developer makes a bad hardcore game which doesn't sell, and they look at it as a generalized rule that hardcore games don't sell.

If you want to become the customer again, you'll need to purchase a game which is worthy of buying, and yes, they exist, even if it's an indie game, and not a big studio game. Or, at least comprimise and purchase something that's closer to what you want. But not just you. You'll need yourself, and about 3 million friends to all do the same.

Very, very true.

That is why I always urge people to buy indy games if they enjoy them at all. Too many people treat them as not "real" games, and always look for a download or keygen. Whatever you do, just pay the miniscule amount for an indy game that you like, they virtually ALL have demo's. No excuses except for being a complete cunt (not that this is a bad thing of course, just mind how you use your cuntliness).

 

[Rhalle]

I think you can expect flood of awesome, yet buggy and badly translated eastern European games.

I felt that that was the future too, but seeing CDProjekt jumping to consoles as fast as the money would allow makes me wonder how accurate this predicion will actually turn out to be.

 

[hiver]

How about if we kill chinese. There is a lot more of them then jews. Better sacrifice, right?

Burt it would be best if we just killed everyone.

 

[MetalCraze]

If we will kill chinese who will make our mp3 players and jeans?

 

[doctor_kaz]

MMORPGs and the XBox are ruining it for the rest of us.

 

[Witchblade]

MMORPGs and the XBox are ruining it for the rest of us.

The above certainly seems to be true if you look at an article like this: http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/6 ... aming.html

The scary part of this article, is that these consolers and MMORPG'ers, actually consider themselves as "hardcore" gamers.

It is true, I suppose, that everyone has his own definition of what a "hardcore gamer" is, and a large part of the problem might lie in that the marketing departments of publishers currently out there, don't quite follow the same definition that Codexers do.

To me the crux lies in that the complexity of games are being dumbed down more and more. In the kind of game I want, there should be a reasonably steep learning curve/intellectual challenge/time investment involved in beating the game, which, of course, is now not being deemed "accessible enough".

A lot of people out there, seem to be defining "hardcore" by the amount of time you spend on your gaming. So the office dork who spends his lunchtime, evening, and all weekend playing Tetris, is, according to this definition, a" hardcore gamer"?

I don't mind the casual market being an entry point for gamers entering the market amd becoming the "hardcore" gamers of tomorrow, but what scares me is what JarlFrank said. The real question is:

"When was the last time a hardcore game that you would have wanted to buy was actually released?"

All the sequels of games we have loved in the past, just aren't the same anymore.

 

[doctor_kaz]

The scary part of this article, is that these consolers and MMORPG'ers, actually consider themselves as "hardcore" gamers.

I can't say that they are wrong about that. If you define a hardcore gamer just as someone who spends a lot of time and money on gaming, then a lot of MMORPG'ers and consolers qualify. Games like Devil May Cry or MLB2K9 have their own hardcore qualities, but it has more to do with refining skills than strategy. But the problem with MMORPGs is that it has totally sucked the money and developer efforts away from single player RPGs. Console gamers have different standards and tastes which is why the death of PC-exclusive gaming is such a problem for PC gaming. The huge difference between console and PC controls means that the PC gets the short end of the stick.

 

[Jim Cojones]

If we will kill chinese who will make our mp3 players and jeans?

I'm pretty sure that if it would bring back Troika alive, I could live without clothes and mp3 players.