Asking for a favor from the Hivemind

[Jaesun]

This is Obsidian's Flag Ship™ title. This HAS to be the BEST FUCKING GAME Obsidian has ever created, or will ever create. Obsidian's strengths are always: Story, Characters and World. You can do this in your sleep. You excel at this. But combat is and forever been your Achilles Heel.

You have to fucking nail this. Period. This is YOUR game, that shows what Obsidian is capable of. You are one of the only developers that actually understand cRPG mechanics in games and do them very well. But you have to marry the combat with the rest that you are excellent at.

 

[Invictus]

Some People have explained in depth some of my own issues with PoE but without beign rebundant they would be these; RPGs are based on Xp per action, meaning you get better the more you do...and the fact that you will get Xp only for questing and not for combat (which you will do for 70% of the game) it removes the choice from the players hands on how to develop their own characters as they see fit.
If the player want to go JRPG and grind for half an hour to buy their first dagger (like in DW) and getting some Xp to use that healing spell or do a couple of fetch quests to get the same money and Xp or even (God forvid) do both the grinding or questing to even maximize the possible ways of making your character better.
By removing the Xp you limit the player freedom by saying "there are x number of quests you can do here before facing the boss and moving to the next area" and thus because Sawyer is so worried about balance you limit the player and the player choices.
I remember ID2 were you could pick a smaller team to make sure your magic user had access to the fireball spell (which made several battles easier) or go with a normal sized group to maximize your gameplay options.
That is an example on giving the choice to the player and allowing the option to grind or not...
I am thinking of games like The Witcher, were you would get the lion share of Xp from quest but you also got small amounts of Xp from fighting mobs; the amounts would usualy balance themselves off by giving smallish amounts of Xp, which would make the difference between leveling up by killing a few random monsters to get a few extra Hp, a perk or a new ability.
That is why I really dislike that idea; there is much more possibility of alienating fans who grew up with that system for the sake of Sawyer's favorite topic...balance
Much of the fun of RPG gaming is that not all character builds can fucked beyond measure and their minute changes and adjustments might (gasp) be bad enough as to not allow you to finish the game...but once again that is the player's choice not Sawyer
That brings me tothe character progresión and devlopment and how seemingly all builds are supposed to be balanced and equal, which sounds so stupid that even Biowere wouldnt do it
And lastly by having all those cooldown vs active abilities which require all sorts of babysitting and pausing with the current combat system it is simply not fun
All in all I felt so enthusiastic about this game i even upped my pledge for a Collector Edition this year, but everything seems to point that thje main issues here is that Sawyer's philosphy on game balance, character progresión and design are not compatible with what I expected out of an IE spiritual succesor.
The game looks beautiful, and probably the quest, lore and writing will be fun, but it will hjave sacrificed fun and freedom for safe and balanced...that is why I have Lost most of my hope for this game and I regret deeply my previous enthisiam
In the same way that after wasteland 2 I decided that I would back any of Fargo's future projects I wont back and more of Obsidian's; Fergus has proven to be nothing but an empty suit by allowing so much freedom to Sawyer and not having the guts to stop him and remind him that People like me kickstarter this sucker for and IE spiritual succesor, not Sawyer's frankenstein's pet game

 

[Curious_Tongue]

The only time I see the word "Balance" popping up in game discussion is when someone is trying criticise a good game.

I understand that balance is very important in multiplayer, but when a good single player game is accused of being unbalanced, it's always some arsehole who didn't like the game but can't quantify why.

 

[Night Goat]

rebundant

I'm stealing this word.

 

[Ninjerk]

rebundant

I'm stealing this word.

You read that post?

 

[Night Goat]

Just the first line.

 

[Invictus]

Sorry about the wall guys I write from my Phone and its kind of hard to space things out

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Haven't read this (presumably and tantalizingly drama-filled) thread yet, but you (AD and OE) have at least one backer who is still quite excited to play the game. I think it's looking great.

Even though engagement is still in.

 

[grotsnik]

In terms of the impression that particularly brutal or unfair comments can be assigned en masse to the Codex or anywhere...that's just the dumb tribal nature of bickering on message boards, isn't it? People like to generalise about these cliques and they use them as ad hominems to score cheap points, so from outside it looks like you're witnessing a culture war or something.

POSTER A: Something negative
POSTER B: Oh, go back to the Codex, you filthy Codexer. Now over on Something Awful, they appreciate the game.
POSTER C: BIOWHORE

I'm really looking forward to Pillars. I think it looks gorgeous and I'm intrigued by the tone. But Zed's right - the beta only seems to have shown off a thin slice of the game and by most accounts it's in need of some work. I'm sure it's fucking dispiriting to have nothing but criticism coming back at you, but what's the alternative for this kind of project? You're never going to be able to show off the full extent of the story or the questing reactivity or even the other gameplay features. So do you just keep throwing out teasing screenshots and spoilery plot hooks and companion nonsense in the hope of keeping people hyped? Commendably, you guys haven't done that, but it does mean your audience is going to keep coming back to the mechanical complaints.

 

[Roguey]

The only time I see the word "Balance" popping up in game discussion is when someone is trying criticise a good game.

I understand that balance is very important in multiplayer, but when a single player game is accused of being unbalanced, it's always some arsehole who didn't like the game but can't quantify why who accuses the game of being unbalanced.

Even the things I've tolerated more than others suffer from balance problems.

Too easy = balance problem
Frustrating in bad ways = balance problem
Optimal ways of playing (e.g. I can never choose another way of handling this scenario because this one works too well) = balance problem

And so on.

 

[Abu Antar]

I don't think they mind criticism. I think someone like Sensuki has done a great job even if he makes his point very bluntly. His contributions have been excellent. I think what Bester has done is also cool. There are other people critiquing the game with good comments and so on. I think when you see someone not liking something, it would help if those people actually pointed out what is wrong with the game. It's not so fun to see someone shit on your game but not actually contribute to constructive criticism. From what I have read while being a member for about a year and a lurker for about three years, is that there are some really great posts here but some can be considered shit posting. One doesn't have to like the game to at least try to tell why they feel the game is shit/decline or whatever.

Think about it yourselves. You go to read a forum as a developer. You read a lot of posts about how shit the game is, the developers are hacks, and so on. I could understand why they could get disheartened. It's easy to say for us that they shouldn't be, but most of us aren't developers (even if there are some around here.)

Sucking up won't help. We shouldn't say that a game is good just because and we don't. But one can be a bit more civilized in how one comments.

But I guess with the internet, no matter what forum, people are more likely to act like douchebags than they would in real life. This is old news, I know, but I still find it pathetic how some people act on the web in general.

 

[polo]

Bitching about no XP for combat? Go play Underrail with the oddity xp system. Then comeback here.

 

[Vault Dweller]

^ This

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's not a blight but it's not an AWSUM design element that must be preserved at all costs. All it does is encourages you to kill everything that can be killed because XP is the most valuable resource.

OK, so instead you get a limited amount of XP, right?

The amount of XP is usually limited one way or another (unless the monsters are respawning). You have 3 areas filled with monsters, they add up to a certain amount. If you want to get 100% you hunt down every monster.

Thus it's not about limiting XP but deciding how they are obtained and changing the player's motivation. If the focus shifts from mindless killing to quests and goals, I don't see it as a bad thing, at least in RPGs that offer more than hack-n-slash.

Fuck yeah, you stopped grinding monsters and you started grinding quests. Sure, you might be one of those who think solving quests is an intellectual challenge for the monocled gentleman while combat is for the dirty peasants, but technically, it's the same thing: you do it for XP.

If the quests are shit, yes. And no I don't think that quests are an intellectual challenge but I definitely enjoy well-written quests with multiple solutions that create atmosphere and expand the lore a lot more than clearing maps from lions and beetles.

So, you stop those who will kill everything for XP, which apparently are a very important part of the gamers and need to be catered for and nobody else matters and instead you force everybody to follow your oh so carefully designed and balanced path(s).

See above.

It's not about careful design and balance (well, can't speak for Sawyer, so I'm talking theory here). The way I see it, either you place 20 monsters on a map, adding up to 1,000 xp, and let the player decide if he wants to kill all 20, or you do 5 quests (involving combat), adding up to 1,000 xp, and let the player decide if he wants to do all 5. For me, it's quality vs quantity. If I have to kill 20 monsters, give me a fucking reason (aka a well written quest). Don't just place them on a map and tell me 'go get 'em, son'.

 

[Invictus]

Yeah well speaking for my part my main issue is that this game was pitched as the spiritual succesor to the IE games; and forgive me if I took that at face value that it would be an improved take on the IE games; as in better pathfinding, options, pseudo 3D graphics, and all the modern bells and whistles like tool tips and Bloom and shit...
That means to me adding, tweaking and updating game mechanics, NOT replacing and outright changing just because you "feel" it is better for game balance or whatever
And I use the Word feel because that is exactly that; I work in marketing and I always use this phrase for touchy feely "creative" types who have their "marketing theories":

It doesnt matter what you think, it doesnt matter what you feel, it only matters what you KNOW"

Who the fuck did Sawyer ask about combat Xp, did he try out modern games and decide that, did he get this out of his butthole?
Again this is NOT what I backed; let him innovate in an indie game like Underrail, or in a one man project like Grimoire, just dont experiment on something that already hassuuch heavy expectations
Oh and VD I usualy like and respect your opinions, but you are coming across as condecending to anybody who doesnt think like you do or "feel" the same way about it
You can put all the Xp systems you want in your game because People will say "oh so that is how you get Xp here?" and just play...it is a brand new game with no expectations
PoE has expectations, and it is simply saying "you cant do that anymore bub" instead of "this is a new way of doing things" or even preferably "you can choose how to do this" for all its bullshit "balance"

 

[Semper]

I work in marketing

so you work in marketing and fell for your own tricks?

 

[Invictus]

My own tricks...
are you impying that Sawyer did some sort of "gasp" actual reseaerch before deciding to toss combat xp? Did he use a poll, make some focus groups or ask the fucking EA guys what sort of lingerie should the romancable companion wear?
Or did he pull it out of his butthole...?
The thing is, if he had the guts or brains he would have gonefull anarchist; why not copy his supposedly favorite game Darklands and use their system instead; there are no "levels" no xp, your characters get better by actualy doing stuff or paying a teacher and quest yield items or money

 

[Shevek]

I was a bit disappointed about the lack of combat xp too until I started playing and just came to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter where I get my xp from. After a bit, xp became background noise. I do think the current system (with Beastiary XP and broken up Quest XP) is ok and a bit better than straight End of Quest XP since you get XP rewards a bit more often (as opposed to large chunks at the end of quests). So, I like how on the ogre quest, you get some xp for finding/entering the ogre cave, another chunk for talking the ogre down, and another for talking to Rumbald at the end, etc.

And to whoever mentioned the Underrail Oddity system, ya, that is a pretty good way to do it. I can even see it working with PoE (finding soul relics or whatever). It REALLY promotes exploration.

 

[Semper]

i am implying that it was awfully naive to expect poe being an improved upon copy of ie games.

 

[Invictus]

Mmm perhaps but I work in market Research; as in find out things...what they do with that information, like branding something faster, better, harder, stronger well that is something else
But whatever, I have no hope for this game really it will be ok in a popamole kind of way, with safe bland balanced kiddie friendly gameplay, shitty twitchy baby care combat and it will simply fianly put to death the goody goody "Obsidian gets RPGs" skullfuck most of us believed

 

[Alex]

Bitching about no XP for combat? (snip...)

It is more sensible than bitching about being forced to kill everything because of combat XP, at least.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yeah well speaking for my part my main issue is that this game was pitched as the spiritual succesor to the IE games; and forgive me if I took that at face value that it would be an improved take on the IE games; as in better pathfinding, options, pseudo 3D graphics, and all the modern bells and whistles like tool tips and Bloom and shit...

Again (and again and again), neither spiritual successor nor inspired by/homage to means a clone of the original. It means 'in the style of', which isn't something you can take at face value because it's a very vague statement.

Obsidian: "Let me add that as an Infinity Engine inspired game, our pillars of design include isometric exploration of a fantasy world, a reactive storyline with interesting and believable characters, and real-time with pause combat. Those elements are expected in our game, and we feel strongly about providing them."

This is the explanation and I agree with it 100%. An IE-inspired game is a RTwP isometric fantasy focused on exploration. Reading anything beyond these words is setting yourself up for a disappointment.

Who the fuck did Sawyer ask about combat Xp, did he try out modern games and decide that, did he get this out of his butthole? Again this is NOT what I backed; let him innovate in an indie game like Underrail, or in a one man project like Grimoire, just dont experiment on something that already hassuuch heavy expectations

What *did* you back? Unlike inXile, for example, that kept things as vague as humanly possible, Obsidian was extremely open and gave honest and detailed answers during the KS. Like the dual HP/Stamina thing and other stuff.

Oh and VD I usualy like and respect your opinions, but you are coming across as condecending to anybody who doesnt think like you do or "feel" the same way about it.

Apologies, it wasn't intentional. However, when it comes to that whole spiritual business thing, there are no two ways to feel about it. Obsidian did NOT promise, hint, or imply in any way that PE will be similar to BG. Anyone who feels this way has successful deluded himself despite all the evidence to the contrary.

 

[Infinitron]

Remember, Vault Dweller did NOT promise, hint, or imply in any way that Age of Decadence will be similar to Fallout.

 

[Semper]

it will be ok in a popamole kind of way, with safe bland balanced kiddie friendly gameplay, shitty twitchy baby care combat

you're going from one extreme to the other. btw casuals are whining that easy ain't really easy, thus they're being squashed by beetles everything hostile. also missing combat xp and engagement are by far no indicators for horrible gameplay.

 

[Invictus]

Yeah whatever, anthony Davis wanted some honest opinions and maybe yeah I am a retard for putting more than $100 of my money on this "spiritual" succesor. Anybody who wants mycollector Edition at a discount is freeto PM me.
As it is fuck Sawyer, fuck Fergus and fuck me for backing this
In the words of Lucius Lentulus Batiatus
"Turn Desire for IE to piss and shit, and see. yourself well satisfied with PoE"