Auction House Online: The Game (Diablo 3) is a MASSIVE decline

[Semper]

I think a better question is why *wouldn't* you want character development in it? The point of the game, as I see it, is not just to find better items but to improve your character, be that through items, skills or stats.

nobody wants that but in case of diablo i don't even care. i played diablo and horded the stats to adapt to my equip. in fact i ignored almost all stats besides dex and vita. in diablo i don't need them anymore. at first i was disappointed too but after thinking about twice it's okay. blizz games were never complex and i don't expect that. for sure i would be more happy if they would improve upon char development but i don't play it nor do i damn it because of it. for me it's fun to play with friends and equip my stuffie for an hour or two a few days in the week on hardcore with the "fear" to loose my char.

besides that i like the new skill system which is similar to gw. it doesn't restrict skill usefulness and grants more customization than d2. in the end it's just a simple yet entertaining arpg. i want my complex rules within a turn based crpg

 

[ArcturusXIV]

Okay, so what are you guys going for if not Diablo 3?

From what I know, the aRPG genre is Grim Dawn and Torchlight on the horizon.

I wasn't a big fan of the first Torchlight, plot was non-existent/non-compelling.

I'm not sure on Grim Dawn. Titan Quest bored me to tears.

 

[Raapys]

Maybe Kotick will feel generous and release a copy of Blizzard North's version of Diablo 3 for those of us unhappy with this one.

 

[bonescraper]

Because it's the same system as Guild Wars, and although I never cared for Guild Wars that much, there was no denying that the skill system made for highly customizable characters.

Same system as Guild Wars? Wat?

In Guild Wars you choose your main class and secondary class. Each class has approximately 150 skills to choose from. That makes a whopping pool of 300 skills per character. And you have to make a build with only 8 of them. Additionally, each class has 4 or 5 attributes, and gains a certain amount of attribute points per every level, up to level 20. You end up having 170 of them to spend.

How's that even remotely similar?

By the way, GW is the most balanced MMORPG ever. Why? Because it's not gear-dependant. There is no luck factor. That's something you can't say about D3.

 

[ScottishMartialArts]

How's that even remotely similar?

Aside from dual classing, it's the same system: get access to a large number of skills but you're only able to use a small handful of them at any given time. As for getting attribute points upon leveling, those aren't especially relevant because you hit the level cap within a few hours of creating a new character and then play the overwhelming majority of the campaign at max level. As a result, spending attribute points isn't exactly the major feature of character customization -- skill selection is.

 

[SerratedBiz]

Aside from dual classing, it's the same system: get access to a large number of skills but you're only able to use a small handful of them at any given time. As for getting attribute points upon leveling, those aren't especially relevant because you hit the level cap within a few hours of creating a new character and then play the overwhelming majority of the campaign at max level. As a result, spending attribute points isn't exactly the major feature of character customization -- skill selection is.

It's not similar other than in you wording it in such a way.

- GW doesn't give you skills by level ups (as you said, levels are mostly irrelevant), nor does it limit your choices by level, unlike D3. As soon as you buy / capture a skill, it's yours to use.

- Other than being limited to 1 Elite skill per skill bar, you can use any combination of skills you want. OTOH, D3 gives you a set number of choices per button (though I'm not sure if this was changeable in the options, but it wasn't available to start with).

- The thing with stats is that they're up to you to distribute. With 4 stats to your primary proffesion and 3 more from your (changeable in towns) secondary, it's a completely different stat system than D3's predetermined one. GW is very much dependant on stat selection, since skill efficiency is only (and greatly) affected by said stats and not your items (again, unlike D3).

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

God damn it. After playing the beta I'm all pumped for the 15th. Gonna knock the stuffing out of so goddamn many monsters.

And even though I may end up enjoying D3 more than TL2, I'm still interested in TL2. Not sure I'll buy it at $20 launch price at this point though, since D3 is beating it out the gate. Might just say fuck it and wait for a Steam sale.

 

[Stabwound]

For some reason Blizzard makes choosing your own skills an option you have to select (maybe this is telling regarding the audience they're trying to appeal to...) but you can choose 6 skills from all of the ones you've unlocked and hotkey them however you wish (F1-4 and RMB/LMB).

I don't think that the way GW skill unlocks really makes a big difference since you mostly grind points to unlock them or grind areas over and over hoping the right boss monster appears.

 

[SerratedBiz]

I don't think that the way GW skill unlocks really makes a big difference since you mostly grind points to unlock them or grind areas over and over hoping the right boss monster appears.

I don't think you've ever played GW for a significant amount of time.

 

[Stabwound]

I played Prophecies non-stop since the beta and for a year after relase until I got bored and quit because the expansion was taking so long to come out. I guess they might have changed how it works since then.

Unless you're referring to unlocks you get from quests or buying them for gold/real money.

 

[SerratedBiz]

In Prophecies you get a shitton of unlocks through quests. In fact, it's the main way for you to get them, because gold is more scarce than it is in the later expansions (and it is only then that gold replaces questing as the mechanic for skill acquisition).

Real money is only useful for unlocking the whole skill set of one of the games for PvP, instead of through PvE questing / buying gold.

But again, it is absolutely not at all similar to D3. There is no need or guarantee that you'll get any skill at any point unless you actively work for it.

 

[Average Manatee]

I don't think that the way GW skill unlocks really makes a big difference since you mostly grind points to unlock them or grind areas over and over hoping the right boss monster appears.

There's like 5 elites out of the 1000s of skills that require you to repeat an area until the right boss spawns (which should happen 50% of the time statistically but the game probably hates me). Everything else is exploration based, either reaching a new trainer or bosses that always carry the same stuff in non-prophecies areas. Technically you can grind PvP faction but considering you can get reach the 6k cap per day vs bots in about 20 mins and thats enough for an elite skill + 3 normal skills I don't think you can call it grinding.

The real difference is that guild wars has a fundamentally differently design behind its skills because it's a tactical team-based game instead of a farming game. You'll never see a D2 build based around interrupting enemies so they can't self heal, or debilitating them so they can't hurt you and running past, or quickly removing multiple layers of protection to deliver a knockout damage spike. Pretty much every skill in Diablo can be reduced down to "does x DPS against y enemies", which is at most modified by enemy resistances that don't even matter anymore as you can swap skills as soon as you find a new area of monsters.

In Prophecies you get a shitton of unlocks through quests. In fact, it's the main way for you to get them, because gold is more scarce than it is in the later expansions (and it is only then that gold replaces questing as the mechanic for skill acquisition).

Nightfall/EotN had a pretty good system where the PvE titles you earned during the singleplayer campaign gave you free skill picks from special trainers that had some 30ish preset skills from each profession. Of course these skill points were called "hero skill points" just to be confusing but they unlocked the skill for both you and the heroes.

Factions of course just gave you so much gold that you could buy several skills from a 2 minute fetch quest.

 

[SerratedBiz]

Ah, true. I forgot the Hero Skill Points, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Whisper]

it's done through choosing skills and changing equip. if you don't like it then don't buy it - simple as that.
defending the position that this ain't customization is just fuckin' retarded. calling d2 more complex is just brain dead.

Items = equip.

And you dont "choose" skills. You are given each and every of them by developers. And can change them on the fly like you change weapons in FPS.


So what besides items(equip) you do to "customize" your character?

 

[Semper]

And you dont "choose" skills. You are given each and every of them by developers. And can change them on the fly like you change weapons in FPS.

hmkay lad, we've got your "point". move on.

 

[waywardOne]

Some comments.

1. Reading this thread has let me expand my ignore list by two. This is not a compliment but I'm sure they'd tell me I wasn't worth paying attention to, either.

2. I just heard the last 2 minutes of Diablo's Tristram song for the first time ever since I never loitered long enough for it to finish.

3. I will wait for 'Diablo 3 - Single Player Edition' to be released before commenting further.

 

[Stabwound]

At this point it probably sounds like I'm shilling for the game to some people, but I'm obviously not.

I said earlier in the thread that you unlock all skills in Normal difficulty, but that actually seems to be false. See the Witch Doctor progression chart here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/witch-doctor/progression

You basically gain new skills/abilities all the way through to the maximum levels.

According to the community manager of D3, level progression is like this:

Normal: 1-30
Nightmare: 30-50
Hell: 50-60
Inferno: 60+

So when you compare that to the chart above, you get skills well into the Hell difficulty and possibly Inferno.

Honestly, the more I read about the skill system, the more I feel better about it. I truthfully was not even going to buy the game, at least at launch, until I played the beta and started to look deeply into the mechanics. I don't care what anyone says, looking at that chart for WD alone, there is some fun skill builds you can figure out and play with. They've set up a true addiction machine (as someone else put it) with this game, just look at how you unlock new shit at literally every level from 1-60.

I think I will personally have a lot more fun with hardcore mode, where creating your own skill setups will be fun and there is no taint by the real money auction house.

 

[ScottishMartialArts]

And you dont "choose" skills. You are given each and every of them by developers. And can change them on the fly like you change weapons in FPS.

If you do change skills like you change weapons in a FPS, you lose the Nephelem Valor buff, slowing down your rate of advancement. There is an incentive to pick your skills and stick with them. And since you only have slots for six skills that means choices have to be made.

And how many times are you going to repeat the same line verbatim in each post you make?

 

[Whisper]

At this point it probably sounds like I'm shilling for the game to some people, but I'm obviously not.

I said earlier in the thread that you unlock all skills in Normal difficulty, but that actually seems to be false. See the Witch Doctor progression chart here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/witch-doctor/progression

You basically gain new skills/abilities all the way through to the maximum levels.

Trolling again?

Just look link you've provided. Aside from few passive skills and upgrades to existing skills (aka runes) - you stop getting new skills at lvl 30. While cap is level 60.


p.s.
Also important point:
Look at skill upgrades (runes) most of them - just add damage/duration/minor secondary effect.
Mages in DnD system who can use feats that upgrade spells like Empower, Widen, Still, Silent, Maximize, Heighten, Enlarge, Quicken with most spells >>>> this crap with runes.

 

[Whisper]

If you do change skills like you change weapons in a FPS, you lose the Nephelem Valor buff, slowing down your rate of advancement. There is an incentive to pick your skills and stick with them. And since you only have slots for six skills that means choices have to be made.

Oh, you can ignore this buff and shuffle every skill possible in second of time?

Having access to every and each skill >> some buff to % of finding items (which you find anyway, matter of time).


Also, i would like to here more about permamence of skill and stat choices in games like Fallout or ones based on DnD. Diablo 3 fans do not approve? Why you cant change your diplomacy specialist in heavy weapon flamethrower specced guy? If it was Diablo 3, you could do this with click of mouse. Immediately. During battle.

 

[Semper]

Also, i would like to here more about permamence of skill and stat choices in games like Fallout or ones based on DnD. Diablo 3 fans do not approve?

as if those games heavily changed their skills through patches... respecing in d2 means creating a new char and doing baalruns. it took 2-3 days and your respec was done. so your point was? instead of repeating your shit over and over again you could state what's so bad about a respec feature in d3. yes, it lowers the replay value to try out another build but hey - it's diablo. a fuckin' dumb arpg and who wants to replay it anyway? :D

 

[Whisper]

So you approve permanence in Fallout and DnD games or not?

Or giving allowing player to do decisions that they cant reverse (and have to live with as part of their character) as part of choice&consequence is a bad design?

And elaborate on mysterious "patches" that allow you to "heavily change" skills/stats in this games.

 

[Semper]

And elaborate on mysterious "patches" that allow you to "heavily change" skills/stats in this games.

are you even able to read?! in d2 skills were changed by blizz through patches so that complete builds became useless. in this case a respec feature would be of need. btw stats can be changed drastically through gems.

 

[Whisper]

are you even able to read?! in d2 skills were changed by blizz through patches so that complete builds became useless. in this case a respec feature would be of need.

Normal devs who give a fck about customers while adding balance changing patches allow free respec.

Now about my question should you get button in games like Fallout that change your diplomat into heavy weapons guy, immediately and in combat?

Would add to customization greatly, wouldnt it?

 

[Semper]

those are completely different games. they're not playing in the same league... do you get that?! they're about char development and decisions. almost every mmo/arpg let you respec your char. that this feature is free and instanstly in d3 is because you can't set points into the different skills and there's no skill tree. the char development happens automatically and without respec there would be nothing you could do while leveling up.