Auction House Online: The Game (Diablo 3) is a MASSIVE decline

[Clockwork Knight]

Entertainment Weekly. From Computer Gaming World to Entertainment Weekly in 20 years. Well, we had some good times, eh?

If there is absolutely one lesson I've learned over four and a half decades it's that the morons always win. Always.

If they are always on the winning side...wouldn't that make them the smart ones?

 

[Average Manatee]

Comparing Diablo 3's skill system to Guild Wars' is like saying that since Call of Duty involves first person shooting it's effectively as good as doom which also involves first person shooting. Get the fuck out dumbfucks.

It's not really the same system as GW. If we could dual class characters, yeah, then we'd be talking about some heavy customization.

After my initial rage at the new skill system, I think it's probably better for everyone other than 12 year old aspies with an entire summer free to grind out characters. To say that the character system isn't customizable is just false. What I suppose people will have a problem with is that there's no permanence to your character, and therefore no reason to make more than one of the same class outside of hardcore mode.

But unless you're a 12 year old aspie the new system will probably be a lot more fun ultimately. They've set it up so that all skills, even the first ones you unlock, should be potentially viable for the entire game, and you can add runes to them that change the effects. So you can theoretically create your own builds and mix and match skills and not have to grind another character for hours on end to be able to do so.

Wow, if you count every D3 skill 6 times it has more skills! Amazing!

Furthermore, I've never heard complaints about the number of D2 skills, only that 80% of them were far too weak to build for the last difficulty. This will of course happen again because Blizzard has proven that their ability to balance their games in the distant past was a fluke.

The skill system is kind of like a more flexible version of the D1 system. It feels like an evolution of that system, rather than the D2 system.

By "like" you mean the exact opposite, right? D1 forced you to discover spells randomly and if you didn't find Heal until the level before Diablo then you had to deal with it.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Guild Wars was also predominantly a team game, both in PvP and PvE. And there was actual coordination involved, unlike Diablo-style coop, where everyone just shoots their shit and tries to stay alive.

 

[Raapys]

Nah, there are still builds. It looks crappy at first, but it's very similar to the system Guild Wars uses, and I had a ton of fun figuring out unique combinations of skills in that game. Admittedly, that game is more flexible because you have a wider variety of skills to choose from, and more hotkey spots, though. Don't forget that you can use any combination of 6 skills that you want, along with any combination of runes. I'm not sure why Blizzard makes that an option you have to select to enable; that's weird.

I think that D3 will ultimately be more flexible and fun than D2 with the skill system, but I might be wrong.

The skill system is kind of like a more flexible version of the D1 system. It feels like an evolution of that system, rather than the D2 system.

It's not builds though, it's setups. Call of Duty MP has the same thing. You level up and get access to new skills("perks"), eventually getting all of them, and you then equip three skills as well as combat equipment to use for a match. Same principle.

Character builds is not equipment setups, however. As for whether this next-gen thing is good or not, that would be entirely subjective. It's certainly a much more forgiving and streamlined system, since you can't make any mistakes and don't have to consider before selecting since it has no consequences.

Personally I'm entirely against it though. I'd much rather see character development. I'd much rather see them improve and increase the complexity of D2's system, instead of simply scrapping it. Removing all long-term commitments and choices definitely takes a lot out of the game as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Stabwound]

Comparing Diablo 3's skill system to Guild Wars' is like saying that since Call of Duty involves first person shooting it's effectively as good as doom which also involves first person shooting. Get the fuck out dumbfucks.

No, that is not what anyone is saying and furthermore that is not a valid comparison at all.

Diablo 3's skill system is like a more basic version of the GW system. No, it's not as good or as flexible, and yes, GW's system is much more complex and intertwined. All I'm saying is that it's similar in the way it works; you get all skills and it's up to you to decide which you use. As I said before, D3 would be much more fun and flexible if you could dual class like GW lets you.

I agree with Cowboy Moment that the skill system is probably just going to be a clusterfuck for standard co-op. I'm thinking more in terms of doing hardcore characters and trying to come up with viable builds that can survive various areas. The softcore game, especially now that you don't lose your corpse and spawn at checkpoints, is basically just throwing cool abilities at monsters. It's no wonder they didn't allow 8 player co-op or it would just look like a rainbow threw up all over the screen.

Wow, if you count every D3 skill 6 times it has more skills! Amazing!

Furthermore, I've never heard complaints about the number of D2 skills, only that 80% of them were far too weak to build for the last difficulty. This will of course happen again because Blizzard has proven that their ability to balance their games in the distant past was a fluke.

Even if you count single skills and not the rune modifications it still has more skills. The point is that instead of Diablo 2 where adding a skill point to a skill makes it do X more damage, adding a rune to a skill in Diablo 3 changes the effect of the skill, sometimes dramatically.

There are hundreds of combinations, but one example is modifying witch doctor summons where you can give them a health leeching attack, an elemental attack, "light them on fire" which gives them an aura that does damage to all enemies around them, etc.

And the way the skill system is setup, I believe the goal is to keep most skills viable for a long time. It probably won't be balanced well at first, but that's supposed to be the goal, anyway.

By "like" you mean the exact opposite, right? D1 forced you to discover spells randomly and if you didn't find Heal until the level before Diablo then you had to deal with it.

I said it's more like D1 than D2, not that it is identical to D1, jesus christ. It's more similar to D1 than D2 in that you have access to all the skills your character has, not determined by a skill tree.

 

[Semper]

the number of D2 skills, only that 80% of them were far too weak to build for the last difficulty. This will of course happen again because Blizzard has proven that their ability to balance their games in the distant past was a fluke.

skills are directly influenced by the gear you wear and do a percentage of the weapon damage. this means that even in high level difficulty your first skill will be of use. there's no weak attack skill, only different ones for different situations and builds. the skills lvlup with your char and become more and more powerful through the gear you find.

It's not builds though, it's setups. Call of Duty MP has the same thing. You level up and get access to new skills("perks"), eventually getting all of them, and you then equip three skills as well as combat equipment to use for a match. Same principle.

so you're saying that gw has no builds but only setups? there you can buy all your skills (or get them through quests/stealing from encounters) and equip them like items. same principle.

 

[Gord]

there were only 2 viable stats in d2 - dex and vita. strength was calculated because everybody knows from the start which equip he wanted to use in the future...

No matter how often the argument is repeated here, it's still faulty because it is based on a wrong assumption:
Not everyone (most probably not even the majority) who played D2 wanted to (or knew how to) do so with a perfect build meant for hardcore at highest difficulty or PvP.

Furthermore, you guys say that you were forced into a small number of viable builds because only they provided the necessary skills to succeed in these scenarios.
Yet I wonder, how would you know that this will be different in D3? It has been pointed out numerous times already (by those that enjoyed the beta, too) that the Beta was too short to evaluate the difficulty of the final game. How can you guys be sure this will not be the case with the "builds" (more like combinations of equipment) in D3?

 

[Average Manatee]

the number of D2 skills, only that 80% of them were far too weak to build for the last difficulty. This will of course happen again because Blizzard has proven that their ability to balance their games in the distant past was a fluke.

skills are directly influenced by the gear you wear and do a percentage of the weapon damage. this means that even in high level difficulty your first skill will be of use. there's no weak attack skill, only different ones for different situations and builds. the skills lvlup with your char and become more and more powerful through the gear you find.

If you pay enough jewgold to Blizzard even bad skills become usable again. Such masterful game design. Remember in D2 when surviving with an unusual build was the mark of a good player? Now it's for the wallet warriors.

Besides that, any mechanic that scales all damage like this is the mark of a completely inept balancer who realizes they are inept and gave up. Which is arguably a good thing compared to one that tries and fails miserably, but both lead to shitty games.

 

[hello friend]

A few builds required Energy too. Not very many, mind you, but there were some.

And you know, there are a LOT of builds that are viable. Granted some classes have more than others (paladin), but every class had quite a lot of options.

 

[Raapys]

so you're saying that gw has no builds but only setups? there you can buy all your skills (or get them through quests/stealing from encounters) and equip them like items. same principle.

Yes, it is the same principle. And yes, I would certainly say GW has setups/loadouts and not builds. That said, GW does have freely allocatable attributes( which are on a permanent respec setting, of course) and an effort needed to get the skills.

At any rate, I'm not sure why anyone would hold up GW as an example to follow. It's a casual game with a streamlined, noob-friendly system with, just like D3, no character development( since everything can be reset without any problems). How's that something to defend?

 

[Whisper]

So you can theoretically create your own builds and mix and match skills and not have to grind another character for hours on end to be able to do so.

What "builds" are you talking about?

Every character with same class&level will have same amount of skills.

To say that the character system isn't customizable is just false.

Character in Diablo 3 is customizable. With items.

Same as character in Doom.


All other goodies (stats/runes/skills) are auto-given at level ups. Freedum of character customization much?

Since you can only use 6 skills at lvl 19, you DO choose certain skills in favor of others

When you use shotgun you use it instead of rocket launcher!
Thats a Choice right here.

 

[Whisper]

hey, let's remove attributes and feats from DnD, cause every two-weapon-fighting warrior will have take ambidextrous, two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting! And every bard will become a red dragon disciple! Hey look, it's Fallout - who the hell needs attributes, after all everyone takes 10 AGI!

Fallout, same as DnD games, have "permanence" in stat and skill selection. Diablo 3 fans do not approve.

 

[Semper]

No matter how often the argument is repeated here, it's still faulty because it is based on a wrong assumption:
Not everyone (most probably not even the majority) who played D2 wanted to (or knew how to) do so with a perfect build meant for hardcore at highest difficulty or PvP.

there was no need for a perfect build. even ubertristram and the 3 großen übel were a cakewalk... the economy was a mess and everybody paid with with (duped) runes. if you wanted to try out a new build you simply joined baalruns to swallow xp like a dry sponge water. d2 was in no way complex and d3 won't be too - in the end gear is the important part. the customization in both is there, it's just done in a different way. calling d2 more deep because of spamming points into a tree and using 2 skills at the end or distributing 5 stat points is false. it's no massive decline like the title implies.

You cant change skill sets in Guild wars during missions/quests. Only in towns. Most of them were not given to you automatically. You had to earn them.

in gw there was no easy way (at least in my mind :D )to quickly enter the town during a quest. after gaining your town portal in d3 you can jump back and forward instantly - so where would the sense be for needing a town to switch?! in fact it would be annoying to use a town portal for just another strategy.

almost all of the skills in gw can simply be bought, except the ones you get through titles. in d3 you get them automatically... important is that like in gw every skill is useful from start to finish. so what's the big deal?!

What "builds" are you talking about?
Every character with same class&level will have same amount of skills.

so what?! the build is based on which skills you choose. respec is no decline... it's better than deleting your char after blizz released a patch where it becomes useless.

If you pay enough jewgold to Blizzard even bad skills become usable again. Such masterful game design. Remember in D2 when surviving with an unusual build was the mark of a good player? Now it's for the wallet warriors.

i am playing hc with sf- there's no need for jew gold -.-
surviving in d2 was the mark of a good player?! :D

 

[sgc_meltdown]

well at least I know semper and whisper are up for some good ole co-op D3 action unlike you jerks!

 

[Whisper]

I just dont understand why Blizzard thinks that players are morons. That they - if given freedom to make choices - will end with bad ones, always. So they just remove choice.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

perhaps they should have just allowed the free reallocation of stats as well as the other stuffies

 

[Average Manatee]

so you're saying that gw has no builds but only setups? there you can buy all your skills (or get them through quests/stealing from encounters) and equip them like items. same principle.

At any rate, I'm not sure why anyone would hold up GW as an example to follow. It's a casual game with a streamlined, noob-friendly system with, just like D3, no character development( since everything can be reset without any problems). How's that something to defend?

GW has so many skills with so many possible interactions that not being able to reset skills would make it virtually unplayable. It's a very different type of game that actually has depth beyond spamming your highest damage skill on recharge, where many of the classes hardly even do damage yet still remain vital to the team. Diablo IS about spamming your highest damage skill on recharge though, which is why any comparison between the two is meaningless and D3 will turn out to be a failure even as GW has/had some of the best PvP ever.

 

[Whisper]

Tomorrow i check this thread.

If anyone thinks that Diablio 3 has customization of character: can you write options to do it. Except items.

Base stats are fixed. Skills progression is fixed, no choice when to take, or not to take at first place. Rune progression is fixed. What else?

 

[Semper]

If anyone thinks that Diablio 3 has customization of character: can you write options to do it. Except items.

it's done through choosing skills and changing equip. if you don't like it then don't buy it - simple as that.
defending the position that this ain't customization is just fuckin' retarded. calling d2 more complex is just brain dead.

if you're too elite and above us mere underlings who sometimes enjoy playing with friends and simple systems... well, fight the good war

 

[Stabwound]

I don't see what the big uproar is about anyway. D2 never pretended to be anything more than a farming simulator and D3 is the same thing.

If you're going to rage about anything, do so about the always online DRM and real money auction house. Not to mention the flashing achievements and popups in your face every 5 seconds.

 

[ScottishMartialArts]

So you can theoretically create your own builds and mix and match skills and not have to grind another character for hours on end to be able to do so.

What "builds" are you talking about?

Every character with same class&level will have same amount of skills.

To say that the character system isn't customizable is just false.

Character in Diablo 3 is customizable. With items.

Same as character in Doom.


All other goodies (stats/runes/skills) are auto-given at level ups. Freedum of character customization much?

Since you can only use 6 skills at lvl 19, you DO choose certain skills in favor of others

When you use shotgun you use it instead of rocket launcher!
Thats a Choice right here.

Repeating the same fucking points in every post doesn't make those points any more valid. Jesus, you're as bad as skyway: overwhelm them with unyielding repetition and eventually they'll concede just to make you shut up.

 

[Raapys]

I don't see what the big uproar is about anyway. D2 never pretended to be anything more than a farming simulator and D3 is the same thing.

Some of us liked to combine that farming simulation with character development.

I think a better question is why *wouldn't* you want character development in it? The point of the game, as I see it, is not just to find better items but to improve your character, be that through items, skills or stats. They just removed the last two of those. Personally I'm surprised to see how many are defending that decision because of this presumed and false 'there was only one way to allocate your stats anyway!!11' mentality. Should it turn out that there really is only a few viable "skill selections" in D3, will people then argue that skills should be removed altogether in Diablo4? What if everyone ends up with the same equipment too? Do we remove that part of the game as well? Anything that could need improvement should instead be cut?

 

[Stabwound]

Of course gutting things is never the optimal solution. Skyrim basically ruined the game by retardoing their character system.

I don't think the current D3 system is optimal, but I don't think it ruins the game like some people are shouting about either. I liked it more when it was announced and it seemed as though you would have to find the runes to modify skills.

I don't know why they didn't just go with the system they were originally planning, with skill trees and allowing respecs. Respecs for gold could have been a massive gold sink, but then again they probably want real life dollars to be a stronger currency than in-game gold.

 

[ArcturusXIV]

Of course gutting things is never the optimal solution. Skyrim basically ruined the game by retardoing their character system.

I don't think the current D3 system is optimal, but I don't think it ruins the game like some people are shouting about either. I liked it more when it was announced and it seemed as though you would have to find the runes to modify skills.

I don't know why they didn't just go with the system they were originally planning, with skill trees and allowing respecs. Respecs for gold could have been a massive gold sink, but then again they probably want real life dollars to be a stronger currency than in-game gold.

No kidding. I always thought tying in spells, runes, and everything with exploration was a brilliant idea. No character customization, no incentive to explore = No go.

Do these guys not get that the "treadmill" is what sells Diablo?

 

[ArcturusXIV]

Tomorrow i check this thread.

If anyone thinks that Diablio 3 has customization of character: can you write options to do it. Except items.

Base stats are fixed. Skills progression is fixed, no choice when to take, or not to take at first place. Rune progression is fixed. What else?

Exactly. Game is broken!

It went from a "must buy" to a "must ignore."