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Auction House Online: The Game (Diablo 3) is a MASSIVE decline

aris

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Wow, I really regret putting on my seriousness mask, as I for a moment thought that DraQ and shihonage would have the ability to string coherent arguments together. I was giddy as a little schoolgirl skipping to this forum, eager to learn what awesome new insight they had, that I hadn't had about diablo 3.

Imagine my surprise and disappointment. Now listen, you seem to be of the impression that I am losing this discussion badly, and you are right. With power arguments like "it's wrong because it's wrong", "a system that is designed for you to try a shitload of builds prevents trying builds" and the good old "THis one does not understand all that we understand, therefore just move on", I can not possibly hope to say anything that would even remotely counter this.

Sarcasm aside, I'm not going to bother discussing this anymore with you. If you are only able to reiterate "what a faggot", you are simply reiterating that which I already thought, you don't have shit. Now as an extra bonus, you can try to figure out how it makes you look stupid as fuck, when you write "I'll type slowly so you can understand this" on a fucking forum, you will get 10 points if you can do it.
 

Berekän

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Yeah, they finalized the fees/retard-rebates: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/services/auction-house/how-to#fees

Auction House FeesBefore you post your auction, you’ll see any fees that apply to your listing displayed in the center section of the Sell tab. These fees will only be charged if your auction successfully sells, and will automatically be deducted from the item’s final selling price.
For Equipment (weapons, armor, accessories, and other unique items)
  • Transaction Fee (Gold Auction House): 15% of final sale price
  • Transaction Fee (Real-Money Auction House): $1.00 USD per item / $1.00 AUD per item
  • Transfer Fee (when sending proceeds to PayPal or other authorized payment-service provider): 15% of amount being transferred

For Commodities (gems, materials, dyes, pages, recipes, and other non-unique items)
  • Transaction Fee (Gold Auction House): 15% of final sale price
  • Transaction Fee (Real-Money Auction House): 15% of final sale price
  • Transfer Fee (when sending proceeds to PayPal or other authorized payment-service provider): 15% of amount being transferred
For more information on fees, see the http://us.battle.net/support/en/article/diablo-iii-auction-house-general-information



:what:
 

DraQ

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Wow, I really regret putting on my seriousness mask, as I for a moment thought that DraQ and shihonage would have the ability to string coherent arguments together.

Imagine my surprise and disappointment. Now listen, you seem to be of the impression that I am losing this discussion badly, and you are right. With power arguments like "it's wrong because it's wrong", "a system that is designed for you to try a shitload of builds prevents trying builds" and the good old "THis one does not understand all that we understand, therefore just move on", I can not possibly hope to say anything that would even remotely counter this.

Sarcasm aside, I'm not going to bother discussing this anymore with you. If you are only able to reiterate "what a faggot", you are simply reiterating that which I already thought, you don't have shit. Now as an extra bonus, you can try to figure out how it makes you look stupid as fuck, when you write "I'll type slowly so you can understand this" on a fucking forum, you will get 10 points if you can do it.
Funny. I was hoping you will actually be able to actually say something sensible once you've put on your seriousness mask. Maybe even actually manage to digest some of the arguments levelled at Diablo 3, but alas it was just that - a mask.

You won't let anything through your thick skull, not even something as basic as the fact that being able to change your build at will means there are no builds. Hell, let me use an analogy to demonstrate how you won't get it this time either:

you want to build a car, two possible approaches:

1. you can either make one that will have to go entire length of the track (*varied* track) without allowing changes in mid-track (but you can try again with different design).

2. you are free to rearrange the components at any time


Now which one will yield a properly *built* vehicle:

1 where you have to have something that can actually move and negotiate the terrain?
Or 2 where you can essentially just move loose pile of pieces forward by hand while making engine noises with your mouth?

gaudaost's comprehension failure in 3... 2... 1...

P.S. There is one thing I don't get though - why get all upset about people calling you a retard and faggot, then moving on?
I thought you were a big fun of cutting out redundant bullshit and how are futile attempts to reach your little malformed brain anything but?
 

Vault Dweller

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More insight and surprising revelations from gaudaost:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...the-must-play-games.55367/page-6#post-2075120

"Secondly, what is wrong with linear games? There's a shit-ton of great games that are all linear, in fact, most great games are linear. There are some games which are truly open ended, which generally falls into the sand box category, and some of them are great, but there is always the "because it is open ended" attached to that sentence. Thirdly, why the hell is it essential to have an active choice? It's a game, not the real life. We play games to escape reality not to live while we live, there's nothing inherently wrong with being shoehorned into specific roles, especially not for people who likes to have a fun time, but don't have any fantasy, like me.

Fourthly, your summary: "farmboy/girl discovers that he/she is special and has special powers" is incredibly stupid. It might seem clever to you, and it would have been, if it wasn't for the fact that this kind of deconstruction can be done for every single story that was ever fucking crafted. Fallout has a dumb "Fed-EX fetch the waterchip" plot, PS:T has a dumb "amnesia plot with some loser trying to string together his story and fighting a retard in a fortress".

It's full of win like "most great games are linear" and "active choices remind me of my sad life", but "some open-ended games are great but only because they are open-ended" is truly my favourite (as well as "you can customize stats with items" from this thread).
 
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Coming onto the forum and reading the opinions of this gaudaost is like suddenly catching the scent of some rotting animal corpse
 

aris

Arcane
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Now when I see people on this forum complaining about stats, I ask mysefl, "why?"

Well, why do some people prefer games with stats?
They act as a represeantation and definition of the character in the game world. In a carefully designed system, stats determine the basic physical/mental capacities of your character and pave the way for a further refinement through skills/talens/perks/whatever.
Optimally every stat has its use. Depending on your character not every stat may be equally useful, but they all should give you something tangible in return (one game that did it reasonably well, imho, was Divinity 2, where putting some points into "out-of-character" stats was actually useful):
Strength might determine damage output and carrying capacity, Dexterity to-hit and evasion, Intelligence mana and magical abilities, etc.
Therefore one might say that stats provide an certain layer of complexity in tweaking your character to the task at hand (killing things) and/or help to identify with a character (because it's your character, you build it and it's fairly unique).

Now, are they necessary in an action game like Diablo? Perhaps not i(f you are fine with giving up the most important rpg aspect), but they have been part of one of the motivational forces in past Diablo games, i.e. character advancement through level-ups. It seems that in D3 this has been mostly replaced with item-hunt and grinding (both of wich were present before, only now they have become even more important).

I understand why people want skills and stats, no problem. Throwing out skills and attributes in a deep ruleset such as for example dungeon and dragons would suck, as it is designed to accomodate a set of diverse play styles, not only power gaming: Much of the fun in DND lies in trying to balance the skills out within a group of adventurers to try to play on each others strength and weaknesses. Now if diablo 2 were a party based non-linear choice and consequences deeply implemented in its attributes RPG, it would not be fine to remove this, as it would remove the soul of the game, but it wasn't and it nor diablo 1 or diablo 3 has never ever been marketed as such. It's always been marketed as a hack-n-slash action-rpg (or action game, if one insists on making that arbitrary distinction) and that's what it is. It's fine to criticize a car for having bad handling, but criticizing it for not being an air-plane is just... weird. And while it's fine and dandy that Divinity 2 implemented non-combat skills, I don't think it necessarily should be implemented in diablo 3, for all their similarities, they are after all, different games: Divinity 2 was a little more about role playing, while diablo is all about monster slaying, both are fine.

I can see the argument that getting to distribute 5 attribute points each level gives a level of complexity, I see it, but I don't really agree with it. To me, attribute-distribution in diablo 2 was something that was just... there. Everytime I leveled up I would do so, not on a whim, but according to a guide I had read to get the most of out of my characters, and I KNOW I was not the only one. By the nature of the skill system, there were only one right way to do it, and being designed for online, it was naturally designed for min-maxers in mind, so with a few exception, any deviation from the right way to do it, would eventually turn combat (and combat is essentially what diablo is all about) into a slow grind, where you die a lot, for no reason and for no gain. Now let me try to elaborate, by presenting the following scenario:

Imagine, in a parallell universe, that in diablo 1, you could twitch your ears with the 'wasd' keys. 'w' would make you twitch your ears forward, making it easier to make out sounds from monsters coming from the direction that the character is facing, 'a' would make it easier to make out sounds of monsters from the left, 'd' from the right and so on. Imagine now, that this got carried over in diablo 2, but was removed in diablo 3. Now, surely there would be an outcry. And one could argue that the twitching of ears made the gameplay more complex, but at the end of the day, it would simply be a feature that is there, without much purpose, because again, diablo is a hack-n-slash game, not a stealth-sneaker. It doesn't matter at all if you can hear better which direction the monsters are coming from, it's all about monster slaying anyway.

Finally, it might be true that has become more about item-hunt and grinding (was there really more to diablo 2 than that in the long run?), I will reserve judgement untill I see the final product. It does seem to me, however, that they have for the first time really nailed the impact and and satisfaction of mindless monster slaying though, though this might certainly also be wrong, I have not played the full game yet, nobody has.
 

aris

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That is indeed very true. I don't see why diablo 3 has to necessarily cater to RPG tropes though, it's more important if it's a fun game or not, but that might just be me though.
 

groke

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That is indeed very true. I don't see why diablo 3 has to necessarily cater to RPG tropes though, it's more important if it's a fun game or not, but that might just be me though.

Arthritis-inducing clickyclick isn't what made Diablo I & II 'fun', it was watching the numbers go up (and stay up).
 

aris

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Yeah, sure, if that is what made diablo 'fun' for you, you can still do that in diablo 3 though.
 

DraQ

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The thing is that when you remove elements like builds, Diablo becomes a game about clicking things to death, repeatedly. That's all there is to it, especially since D2, that got rid of persistence and having to work with what you find.

Clicking things to death over and over again is very shitty gameplay.

And while it's fine and dandy that Divinity 2 implemented non-combat skills
Wait, what.


I don't think it necessarily should be implemented in diablo 3, for all their similarities, they are after all, different games: Divinity 2 was a little more about role playing, while diablo is all about monster slaying, both are fine.
How are non-combat skills even relevant to this discussion? Next thing you say that we want Diablo 3 to implement realistic driving model.

Imagine, in a parallell universe, that in diablo 1, you could twitch your ears with the 'wasd' keys. 'w' would make you twitch your ears forward, making it easier to make out sounds from monsters coming from the direction that the character is facing, 'a' would make it easier to make out sounds of monsters from the left, 'd' from the right and so on. Imagine now, that this got carried over in diablo 2, but was removed in diablo 3.
What a nifty strawman. I really enjoyed how you equated stats and skills that define your character's capabilities and form all that remains after you account for clicking things to death and taking their stuff with retarded, tacked on mechanics that:
a) Would be extremely clunky and inconvenient to use
b) Would have minimum impact on the gameplay
c) Would be completely incongruous with the game where you play neither elves nor furries.

But you know what?
I can still roll with it, just let me make some tweaks:

Imagine some parallel universe where Diablo came with additional mechanics - instead of just having light radius, you'd have FoV angle and light radius. FoV would automatically follow your cursor, could be modified by many factors (item bonuses, curses, helmets) and would be really well integrated with the gameplay, with certain monsters trying to sneak up on you by avoiding your FoV cone while you'd be attacked by high risk ranged attackers. It would contribute to visceral gameplay (otherwise consisting of clicking things to death and taking their stuff like in our Diablo) and would become a part of iconic image of what Diablo is about. Diablo 2 would also include this mechanics.

Would it be wrong to suddenly remove it in Diablo 3?

*Of course* it would be wrong.
 

LeStryfe79

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Not being able to distribute stat and skill points in Diablo 3 makes it more old school since you didn't do that stuff in AD&D either. :smug:
 

Jasede

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The thing is that when you remove elements like builds, Diablo becomes a game about clicking things to death, repeatedly. That's all there is to it, especially since D2, that got rid of persistence and having to work with what you find.

Clicking things to death over and over again is very shitty gameplay.

You are just lying to yourself. Diablo was always about clicking things to death over and over to get better loot. It was never about the builds or about Act 1 on Normal being difficult or even about the much-praised atmosphere. This new skill system changes jack shit. In Diablo 2 people would just do this:

They play the game. They fuck up their build. They look up a build that looks fun. They play that build.

A few of them would experiment- which you still can, by picking different ability/rune combinations, merely in a different way.

But nothing really changed. The game was about killing things and clicking and picking up stuff. That was always the biggest criticism and the biggest draw. I doubt Diablo 3 will be any different. I played 1 and 2 when they came out and yes, they were merely that: games about clicking and killing things that appealed to nothing but the basest instincts.

And that was fine because they were video games, not an intellectual exercise. Diablo never pretended to be anything more; anything you might see in Diablo 1 or 2 that was "more" is merely your addled perception so you can talk about something on a video game forum.

Look, I am not saying that it isn't dumbed down. It is. So what? The game was never about planning out your stat points; at least not from my viewpoint. It was just a fun game to play with friends or alone that was a great time waster, like most video games.

I'd understand all your criticism if this was a real RPG- but it's freaking Diablo! It's an action RPG hack&slash loot and killfest! The whole argument is pointless because even if you were correct you'd be proving nothing new!
 

joeydohn

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A few of them would experiment- which you still can, by picking different ability/rune combinations, merely in a different way.

But it doesn't take weeks of real time to try out a build with 3 different points now though! :hearnoevil:
 

Captain Shrek

Guest
Although Jasede is right, what the argument is that reduction of features has reduced the depth of the game. If they felt redundant earlier, the response ought to have been improvement and not deletion.
 

Jasede

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I suppose I misread then. Yes, the reduction of features always come with a reduction in depth. I am arguing that this changes very little in a game like Diablo.
 

Vault Dweller

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You are just lying to yourself. Diablo was always about clicking things to death over and over to get better loot. It was never about the builds or about Act 1 on Normal being difficult or even about the much-praised atmosphere. This new skill system changes jack shit. In Diablo 2 people would just do this:

They play the game. They fuck up their build. They look up a build that looks fun. They play that build.
Doesn't mean that it was the only way to play or that everyone just copied the best build.

A few of them would experiment- which you still can, by picking different ability/rune combinations, merely in a different way.
It's not the same. Not even close.
 
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Guys its C&C if I choose to make my magic missle shoot 2 missiles for 40k damage instead of shooting one missile for 80k damage. That's one rune choice. Diablo 3 has like ten million fucking skill and rune combinations, it's got more C&C than any other game released. Blizzard makes great games and you are all just hating on it for the Kodex Kred.
 

shihonage

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Guys its C&C if I choose to make my magic missle shoot 2 missiles for 40k damage instead of shooting one missile for 80k damage. That's one rune choice. Diablo 3 has like ten million fucking skill and rune combinations, it's got more C&C than any other game released. Blizzard makes great games and you are all just hating on it for the Kodex Kred.

Where's build permanence in that?
 
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Guys its C&C if I choose to make my magic missle shoot 2 missiles for 40k damage instead of shooting one missile for 80k damage. That's one rune choice. Diablo 3 has like ten million fucking skill and rune combinations, it's got more C&C than any other game released. Blizzard makes great games and you are all just hating on it for the Kodex Kred.

Where's build permanence in that?

Bro you are given the choice to keep your skills are permanent as you want or to switch them constantly. Blizzard gives you C&C, it's up to you to make the decisions.
 

Captain Shrek

Guest
I suppose I misread then. Yes, the reduction of features always come with a reduction in depth. I am arguing that this changes very little in a game like Diablo.
Would you like playing a better Diablo or a dumber diablo? Look. Probably for its target audience its perfectly fine!
With this argument the largest target audience is Farmville audience. What if games are all made for them instead of us? That is why we must complain just to keep the spirit of good games alive. There will always be devs making games for US but as their audience declines when NOBODY raises a voice against the dumbing down phenomenon, what will be left for them? It will be the path that was taken by troika: Bankruptcy.

Probably I am too idealistic. But preserving these ideals is what places like RPGcodex should be about.
 

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