Avadon is here for windows (kinda)

[Johannes]

How do I stop abusing the rest feature? there is no indication in the manual or in the game help files or mechanics, How much i should rest. How much is "abusing".
We could at least blame the game designers of those games, If they didnt intend me to rest after every fight to give me an indication of it.
But since it seems you are claiming THere is an indication, since you claim "thats not how the game was intent to be played" I would like to know at least , how I determine how much rest Is abuse, and Lets say in icewind dale 2, how much rest "is too much rest" , So next time I play a spiderweb software game or bioware game, I dont rest too much and can have any kind of challenge in those games.

You know you're abusing the resting feature when you sleep after almost every battle, just to heal everyone from the minor wounds you had and get your most powerful magic spells back, instead of just using all tools in your arsenal and sleeping only when it's needed. Because of the way magic is handled in D&D it should be very easy to notice when you're abusing the rest feature in IWD2.

That's both too ambiguous and stupid. Of course you rest only when you actually need to, to rest more than that would be just a waste of time. But where a good player uses only a handful of spells in an encounter and barely takes a scratch, a bad one unloads everything he's got in the same, easy fight and acutely needs to rest. So he rests and now he's in the same situation as the smart skilled player -> it doesn't matter how well you play outside boss fights you enter fully prepared. And of course a smart player plays it safe wherever he can, better to rest than to reload.

Designers should counter resting abuse by making it leave the party open to ambush by nearby creatures while they're sleeping...IE games had that happen in the wilderness if I recall correctly but in dungeons you could sleep all day and the skeletons on the next room would just patiently wait. In older RPG's you could not only get ambushed but some of your party members would still be sleeping, making the fight a lot more dangerous.

You wuold get interrupted while resting in dungeons in IE (depending on game&dungeon), but usually those were easy enough fights that mainly served to give you xp, along with your refreshed spell lists.

Sure you can try for example how fast you can finish the game, in ingame days - then it's a challenge. But when the game wasn't designed for such thing, it might get annoying.

 

[Waterd103]

Sure you can try for example how fast you can finish the game, in ingame days - then it's a challenge. But when the game wasn't designed for such thing, it might get annoying.

Yes, And I know this very well because I have the issue of being unable to enjoy games, specially RPG, If i dont find any kind of challenge.

As I did in KOTC (and you can watch the ironman challenge) I have to build challenges to be able to enjoy the game. And sometimes even trying to make a challenge of beating the game before X number of real days, create a lot of problems, like a Mass cleric party is a must (and you have to manually heal your team all the time) So, yeah its not easy to create a set of rules that is equally challenging for a group of players (because I and my friends generally try the same challenge)

Agree tough, that if Avadon you get full hp and MP and you figth say, 2 random wolves, that is a stupid fight and the battle would be better not be there in first place.

My point was that the problem is not new. So as much as the game may be terrible, Blaming that feature is definitely not the right thing.

(I've for a long time tried to design a challenge to make Avernum and Geneforge enjoyable to me and failed)

I agree that Its sad that spiderweb tried to go to a wider audience in the wrong way. The strong point of their games is that they catered to a small niche market where there is no offer.
Trying to bioware their games, they are competing in a market that is too expensive. Bioware has millions of budgets to create the experience his market wants. Involving in the competition in that market seems terrible decision.

In fact they could try to point to more niche markets in several ways.
People like me that want a challenge, people that like rougelikes, people that like a lot of RPG related generes that are not getting games. There is still a market of niches that only Indie companies keep releasing games. And I think thats where Spiderweb should keep its work, its not like they already covered all that niche market or RPGS as I said.

 

[mountain hare]

I just thought I'd chime in to point out that Vogel's Exile series penalised resting in dungeons with respawning monsters. Camping outdoors also resulted in respawning mobs, and monsters in dungeons reappearing.

In otherwords, if you wanted to take down a major fortress (eg. Ornotha Ziggurat), you needed to do so in one hit. Camping would simply result in you having to kill the same enemies all over again.

 

[mangsy]

Played the Avadon demo. Like most people here, I was disappointed. It was just really tedious: cookie cutter setting, boring writing, uninteresting characters, etc.

As far as Spiderweb's other games go... Vogel has always been a fairly weak writer, but for whatever reason (I think it was mostly the nonlinearity) I liked the Geneforge games. Nethergate wasn't half-bad either. Avernum was just a mediocre rehash of Exile, although Exile itself was pretty damn good.

Oddly enough, whenever Vogel "improves" the graphics of his games, I feel like they become more sterile and uninteresting. The original version of Exile: Escape from the Pit (with the original graphics and PC-NPC conversation interface that required you type in your queries) just had some old-school magic to it that Spiderweb has yet to recapture.

 

[Johannes]

Btw, one thing I remember wondering is in Exile3/Avernum3, is there a mechanism that kills towns if you don't stop the monster plagues as is implied in the games descriptions? I moved somewhat fast through the game (could've still done it much quicker) and didn't notice anything like that happening, all towns that started intact stayed intact. I read there would've been some incident in the tower of Magi on a set day but I finished earlier than that, was that all that would've come from taking too long?

 

[PorkaMorka]

Oddly enough, whenever Vogel "improves" the graphics of his games, I feel like they become more sterile and uninteresting. The original version of Exile: Escape from the Pit (with the original graphics and PC-NPC conversation interface that required you type in your queries) just had some old-school magic to it that Spiderweb has yet to recapture.

I kind of feel the same way, I think it is something to do with the transition from medium quality low res tiles to moderately below average quality sprites to low quality isometric graphics.

Exile looks decent compared to other low res tile based games, but his modern games invite the comparison with a game like TOEE... which isn't a favorable comparison for them.

I do think that Avadon is a solid graphical step up from Avernum 6 though, Avadon almost looks like something from the Eschalon guy.

Too bad about everything else.

If you are going to change tons of stuff about your game to appeal to casual gamers... why not change the opening scenario to one that is exciting and dramatic, instead of one where you go fight a bunch of rats and spiders.

(oh wait, I know why not, that would take effort)

 

[Excidium]

I wonder if the general reaction has been the same on other communities. There's always those guys that will praise anything indie.

 

[mountain hare]

Btw, one thing I remember wondering is in Exile3/Avernum3, is there a mechanism that kills towns if you don't stop the monster plagues as is implied in the games descriptions? I moved somewhat fast through the game (could've still done it much quicker) and didn't notice anything like that happening, all towns that started intact stayed intact. I read there would've been some incident in the tower of Magi on a set day but I finished earlier than that, was that all that would've come from taking too long?

Yes, towns decay and get destroyed by the monster plagues as time passes. However, you really need to dilly dally before you see it. From memory, at about day 40 you will start seeing town degeneration if you don't stop the slime plague (which can be easily completed in 4-5 days).

The tower of magi incident occurs after about 150 (?) days, and is a major quest that you must complete if it is triggered. It's worth playing through, if only for lore purposes.

That's both too ambiguous and stupid. Of course you rest only when you actually need to, to rest more than that would be just a waste of time. But where a good player uses only a handful of spells in an encounter and barely takes a scratch, a bad one unloads everything he's got in the same, easy fight and acutely needs to rest. So he rests and now he's in the same situation as the smart skilled player -> it doesn't matter how well you play outside boss fights you enter fully prepared. And of course a smart player plays it safe wherever he can, better to rest than to reload.

As someone else pointed out, you're not obliged to rest if you feel that it makes the game too easy. It's your responsibility not to exploit a game mechanic.

 

[Fowyr]

Don't touch my spiders and rats. In almost every good RPG you fight rats.
On the other hand, sometimes rats were mean, muscular and with very sharp teeths. Like in the Disciples of Steel, where any low-level (low-skill to be precise) party was easily killed in any encounter with rats. M:

 

[curry]

Demos are always boring. Tutorials are always dull. There are two ways of doing a demo. One - Put the player in a training wheels dungeon and teach him or her enough to play the real game. Two - Set up a really big, flashy set piece to start the game, and have the player wander through it doing nothing.

No, the whole purpose of a demo is to SPARK INTEREST IN THE GAME. Learn to make demos, faggot.

 

[R_ _]

avadon is ok. but had too much to do with wagons and the babylonian setting is no excuse for a lack of PL-like DLC.

 

[zeitgeist]

Demos are always boring. Tutorials are always dull. There are two ways of doing a demo. One - Put the player in a training wheels dungeon and teach him or her enough to play the real game. Two - Set up a really big, flashy set piece to start the game, and have the player wander through it doing nothing.

I find it hard to believe that a person who's been computer literate for as long as Vogel has never played even a single one of the shareware classics. It seems that he's misrepresenting the state of things with a specific purpose in mind. Trolling for fun, imprinting a set of values into his fanbase for profit, or a little bit of both?

 

[Johannes]

The problem with the demo is, that the game is really simple at least when there's not much abilities to use yet. Not much stuff to learn and try out, you just right click enemies and they die (on Torment, even then you don't need abilities vs rats). Compare to the beginning of an Avernum or GF (or Nethergate or Exile) game, you've got a decent list of spells, stats to get familiar with, and even the simple, easy battles help to judge what kind of abilities you would want to improve on and try different approaches.
Here, when you want to spare your vitality, you just right click through all the trash mobs - that's boring. The abilities your guys have are so few they're quickly tried out, not that you'd really need them in most fights.
That's not mentioning the setting/plot which also can incite peoples interest, but it's much more subjective what works in that area.

Sure, a lot of people apparently don't care about interesting battles and character building. But that's what the easier difficulties should be for. Design the game for the torment-difficulty player (and preferably really make that torment, not just mildly challenging), then ease it up for the rest. Because the people who play on max difficulty and want a challenge tend to be much more demanding in gameplay stuff, than more casual people who just want to see the plot and kill stuff without a hassle.


And cmon Jeff (I know you're still reading this ), people don't hate your games here (at least the vast majority don't). But we do criticize the bad aspects of even stuff that we like overall. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the actual issues brought up, instead of focusing on silly minor points like the world map comment.
For example, how are repeating fights with practically no chance to die (again, on torment) coupled with the health regen, a good design?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Demos are always boring. Tutorials are always dull. There are two ways of doing a demo. One - Put the player in a training wheels dungeon and teach him or her enough to play the real game. Two - Set up a really big, flashy set piece to start the game, and have the player wander through it doing nothing.

I find it hard to believe that a person who's been computer literate for as long as Vogel has never played even a single one of the shareware classics. It seems that he's misrepresenting the state of things with a specific purpose in mind. Trolling for fun, imprinting a set of values into his fanbase for profit, or a little bit of both?

He's lying. He always talked about how he has big playable demos that show off his games. I have enjoyed demos of Exile games, Geneforge, Geneforge 5 and Nethergate, so he knows how to make good, non-boring demos.

One thing that is worth remembering - if his game is linear and easy, it's probably much less work for him.
Anyway, judging from his blog entries, it's the kind of games that he likes and he finally does games that he likes - low budget Bioware-style games.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

If a demo is boring, it failed its role as a demo (which is to get the player interested in the game). If demos were always boring, they wouldn't exist anymore because no one would bother. Not sure what the fuck Vogel is on, but I'd want it

Spoiler

if I didn't have Jesus in my life.

edit: The demo for Cossacks: European Wars was mad fun. Me and my cousin had a blast with it, more than with the game it came bundled with - Crusaders of Might and Magic (a relatively shitty Tomb Raider clone).

 

[Mortmal]

So anyone else bought it and went past the demo , does it improve or still bland and linear ?
I mean 25$ still i could order 5x this:

Eat them all in a row and die happy...

 

[Saxon1974]

Im curious as well if it gets better after the demo. Im not interested after playing the demo at this point. I despise regenerating health. Game seems too easy.

It appears that even with nice graphics upgrade its a far inferior game from the avernums and geneforge games.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Demos are always boring. Tutorials are always dull. There are two ways of doing a demo. One - Put the player in a training wheels dungeon and teach him or her enough to play the real game. Two - Set up a really big, flashy set piece to start the game, and have the player wander through it doing nothing.

Anyone remember how much fun the JA2 demo was?

I remember replaying it many times while my anticipation for the full game just kept increasing as I discovered more and more of the stuff they had packed into it.

 

[Elwro]

And remember how fun Fallout 1 demo was?
Or Doom, Blood, or Duke shareware version?

or Wacky Wheels with its awesome split-screen action?

 

[sea]

snip

Wait, demos are always boring and tutorials are always dull? What are you on? Here are some game demos that were awesome and either made me purchase games, or made me want to (regardless of the quality of the full thing). Some of these I played more than the full games themselves, and had dozens of hours of fun with.

• Half-Life
• BioShock
• Fallout
• Deus Ex
• Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory
• Command & Conquer
• Command & Conquer 3
• Doom
• Doom 3
• Magicka
• Mount & Blade: Warband
• Quake
• Quake 2
• Quake 3
• Unreal Tournament
• Civilization IV
• Worms: Armageddon
• Torchlight
• Diablo
• Diablo II

In addition, here's a list of a few games I can think of that have really well-done tutorials that aren't boring and teach the player game concepts well within the universe - again, regardless of the game's quality.

• Borderlands
• Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
• Deus Ex (one of the best optional tutorials ever)
• Half-Life (ditto)
• The Witcher
• Splinter Cell and sequels
• Trine
• Assassin's Creed II
• Grand Theft Auto (all of them, pretty much)
• Mass Effect 2
• BioShock
• Crysis

No, Jeff, clearly it has nothing to do with the fact that your game is poorly made, boring, ill-executed, generic, bland, stale, insipid, uninspired, and unegaging. It's because tutorials and demos always suck, and you're right up to the standards of all other games. Right?

 

[Excidium]

edit: The demo for Cossacks: European Wars was mad fun. Me and my cousin had a blast with it, more than with the game it came bundled with - Crusaders of Might and Magic (a relatively shitty Tomb Raider clone).

Reminds me of this. I loved that magazine, some editions came with great games like Fallout 2 and Deus EX.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Yes, that's the bundle I was talking about. I played FO2 for the first time becase I thought the cover looked cool and bought it. The magazine still exists, but I don't buy almost every issue like I did back then. Last ones I bought were of NWN 1 Platinum, Age of Empires 1&2 + expansions, and Morrowind.

 

[Lightknight]

Great, so not only it wanted to lodge itself in Program Files, when i selected the drive i wanted to install it to, it said it wanted some space on two OTHER drives, EXCEPT the one i am telling it to install to. WTF, Vogel ? Who taught you to make these kinds of shitty installers ?

 

[Kraszu]

And remember how fun Fallout 1 demo was?
Or Doom, Blood, or Duke shareware version?]

Obviously a sing of a bad design.

 

[mountain hare]

Demos are always boring. Tutorials are always dull. There are two ways of doing a demo. One - Put the player in a training wheels dungeon and teach him or her enough to play the real game. Two - Set up a really big, flashy set piece to start the game, and have the player wander through it doing nothing.

I find it hard to believe that a person who's been computer literate for as long as Vogel has never played even a single one of the shareware classics. It seems that he's misrepresenting the state of things with a specific purpose in mind. Trolling for fun, imprinting a set of values into his fanbase for profit, or a little bit of both?

What's mind boggling is that Jeff has made games with good demos. Exile 2 is probably his best.