Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Eternity Avowed - Obsidian's first person action-RPG in the Pillars of Eternity setting - coming February 18th

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,717
For the sake of discussion, how many RPGs follow the same formula where the special MC always wins/saves the world against just in time? Here, you and the pantheon were out-maneuvered. It just wasn’t clear how badly the pantheon screwed up until it was too late.

You weren't outmaneuvered, though, that would imply you had the opportunity to succeed at some point and that's not the case with Deafire, not in the writing nor in the design. The PC simply doesn't play a part in the critical plot events, they are merely an observer or a... watcher, if you will. If you want the full TLDR breakdown, I've ranted about it before:

Which only further emphasises how Eothas's gambit is batshit crazy. Try telling a live service's sysadmin to shut the servers down without a backup and he'll chase you out with a broomstick, but the supposed "god of wisdom" goes all YOLO on the world's life service and he doesn't even put up a downtime notice.

But if Deadfire's main plot is dubious, it's the narrative design that really scuttles the skiff. I originally meant to write a long screed on the subject but I've long since lost the interest to expend too much effort over Deadfire, so riddle me this - what if the Watcher doesn't pursue Eothas? How do the plot's critical events change if you just decide to kick your feet up on a Neketaka beach and sip margaritas? Nothing, Eothas goes on and destroys the Wheel. All you're doing is chasing after him, your only role in the main event is to find out what he's up to. Oh, sure, you get to make one (and only one!) side request 'cause he admires your persistence, but who gives a crap?

Concerning the final "battle", and this what really vexed me about Sawyer's reaction to this criticism, I remember seeing a response from him along the lines of "we literally told you that you couldn't beat him, what more do you expect?" Yes, Josh, you did! In the final act, the other gods literally tell you something like "I dunno, go see if you can talk him down, not sure what else you could do", there are repeated suggestions through the game that Eothas is beyond your power. One problem, though... "nobody can make that shot on the Death Star", "no way you can carry the Ring across Mordor", "no chance in hell Ford can take Ferrari at Le Mans" etc. etc. et-fucking-cetera! You implemented the precise pattern of setting up impossible odds to overcome in a heroic plot and now you're surprised that the consumer expected the rest of that pattern to play out to the end!

Basically, Deadfire's an RPG about futility. You never stood a chance to begin with, and that's a hard concept to centre yourself around in a genre that's essentially the videogame equivalent of the Bildungsroman. CDPR arguably did a better job in Cyberpunk by shifting the focus, at least in retrospect, to the protagonist's struggle with their own inevitable mortality, how they cope with that, but Deadfire remains fixated on a main event you play no part in. You can make an RPG about failure, but futility?... Your narrative had better sing, and Obsidian's didn't. Oh, and just to twist that knife in, I'll remind you that Durance, in the first Pillars of Eternity, already killed Eothas - that's right, a former companion achieved more than you get to... in his backstory!

Now indulge me for just one more paragraph with what could've been... Eothas is basically a big rock colossus, right? Hey, you know what people have used in the past to "fight" rock? Cannon! Which is to say, exactly the sort of crap you've got lying around on all those ships littering the game. So here goes - you forge an alliance with one or more factions, sail through the storm and then blast Eothas with cannon shot! As his legs crumble under him, he gets one last blow in and smashes the Wheel and they both plummet into the depths. Or, if you chose to go it alone, you arrive at Ukaizo but you don't have enough guns to do the job, Eothas still destroys the Wheel and you've snuck in a nice little Saturday morning cartoon message about the importance of friendship. Either way you achieve two things: 1) you meaningfully rope the factional conflict into the resolution of the main plot, and 2) you turn a story of futility into one of failure. You failed, Eothas succeeded regardless of whether he also fell, and the setting moved where Obsidian wanted it to, but the task was doable!

And I'm not even saying this is how it should've been, this is just an example of what I came up with waiting for the office kettle to boil a few days after I finished the game and I'd expect professional writers and designers to do better. But enough, I ended up writing more than I meant to here anyway.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,922
What fell flat for me though was the “we don’t know what comes next” that I remember (it has been a few years). Obsidian couldn’t have reinforced how badly we fucked up?
But you didn't fuck up. There's a message of hope: kith must now sink or swim without the meddling of the AI Gods. A harder road to travel, but one that could possibly result in a better world. "No Gods, No Masters," - Josh Sawyer
 

orcinator

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
1,797
Location
Republic of Kongou

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,922
4 timeless masterpieces
That is correct: well-received by customers and made a profit over time (bad marketing), well-received by customers and sold millions, well-received with tens of millions of players on Game Pass, well-received Game Pass art title.
 

markec

Twitterbot
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
51,756
Location
Croatia
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Dead State Project: Eternity Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
4 timeless masterpieces
That is correct: well-received by customers and made a profit over time (bad marketing), well-received by customers and sold millions, well-received with tens of millions of players on Game Pass, well-received Game Pass art title.
By that logic, Oblivion was a masterpiece
image_2024-11-25_172032404.png
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
6,892
By that logic, Oblivion was a masterpiece
There are a lot of elder Zoomers and Millennials who in fact say that.
There are a lot of elder Zoomers and Millennials who say they're women after cutting their cocks off. But I suppose that is a good point – just like they can be "women," TOW can be a "masterpiece." Maybe we should call it a transterpiece?
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,922
There are a lot of elder Zoomers and Millennials who say they're women after cutting their cocks off. But I suppose that is a good point – just like they can be "women," TOW can be a "masterpiece." Maybe we should call it a transterpiece?
Codex is the guy in the foreground when it comes to popular games that have remained popular for nearly 20 years
fb0.jpeg
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
6,892
There are a lot of elder Zoomers and Millennials who say they're women after cutting their cocks off. But I suppose that is a good point – just like they can be "women," TOW can be a "masterpiece." Maybe we should call it a transterpiece?
Codex is the guy in the foreground when it comes to popular games that have remained popular for nearly 20 years
fb0.jpeg
If you think Oblivion is the coolest thing ever, you might be on the wrong site. I hear RPGWatch is always looking for new members.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,922
If you think Oblivion is the coolest thing ever, you might be on the wrong site. I hear RPGWatch is always looking for new members.
I thought it was stupid and not particularly fun, but that just makes me an outlier and out of alignment with the tastes of the masses.
 

kapisi

Educated
Joined
Nov 28, 2022
Messages
232
What fell flat for me though was the “we don’t know what comes next” that I remember (it has been a few years). Obsidian couldn’t have reinforced how badly we fucked up?
But you didn't fuck up. There's a message of hope: kith must now sink or swim without the meddling of the AI Gods. A harder road to travel, but one that could possibly result in a better world. "No Gods, No Masters," - Josh Sawyer
Also saying that the Watcher achieved nothing is very surface level.

The Watcher found Ukaizo and actually learned what exactly Eothas did and why. This information at least gives people a headstart in solving the broken Wheel shit. Without the Watcher nobody would even know it's broken.

Roping factions in? They help you get to Ukaizo.

A failure instead of futility? You can have Wael's titan fight Eothas.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,922
Are you a developer? If not, why do you care what some developer thinks?
I accept my unimportance.

The photo was someone complaining that a bunch of women "ruined" Obsidian. Well, Obsidian's been doing just fine by any metric (financially, critically, user reception). The people on the Codex who hate the games they're putting out now very likely also hated the games they were making back then as well, so what's changed here really?
 

S.torch

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
1,154
Codex is the guy in the foreground when it comes to popular games that have remained popular for nearly 20 years
fb0.jpeg
This may apply to Skyrim and Oblivion, because even with their flaws they can be enjoyable. But not to Obsidian's games which are all overwritten pseudo-intellectual garbage pretending to be deep and meaningful while being painfully mediocre. They're the opposite of coolest thing ever. Also saying games that are free on gamepass sold millions is an oxymoron.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,922
This may apply to Skyrim and Oblivion, because even with their flaws they can be enjoyable. But not to Obsidian's games which are all overwritten pseudo-intellectual garbage pretending to be deep and meaningful while being painfully mediocre. They're the opposite of coolest thing ever. Also saying games that are free on gamepass sold millions is an oxymoron.
Sounds like you prefer the lowbrow and find the highbrow very intimidating.

If a game has tens of millions of players on Game Pass, Microsoft considers it a success and what Microsoft thinks matters more to Obsidian than your very specific irrelevant criteria.
 

Vulpes

Scholar
Joined
Oct 12, 2018
Messages
427
Location
Fourth Rome
By that logic, Oblivion was a masterpiece
There are a lot of elder Zoomers and Millennials who in fact say that.
The Elder Scrolls is an anomaly because it was the first RPG series to successfully go multiplatform. It's not that hard to put Oblivion on a pedestal when its predecessor Morrowind, which had some of the worst gameplay and cookie-cutter quest design ever seen in a Western ARPG, was the first (and probably only) open-world RPG for most XBox players during the sixth console generation. Obsidian does not have this luxury. Avowed will be negatively compared to Skyrim just like how The Outer Worlds was to Fallout New Vegas.

And why should tastes of the masses matter, especially here of all places?
Because the Codex is too small of a community to sustain game dev studios by itself? Just look at Iron Tower.

The photo was someone complaining that a bunch of women "ruined" Obsidian. Well, Obsidian's been doing just fine by any metric (financially, critically, user reception). The people on the Codex who hate the games they're putting out now very likely also hated the games they were making back then as well, so what's changed here really?
PoE 2 and Tyranny were both financial flops, and the vast majority of Codexers who like FNV happen to hate TOW.
 

markec

Twitterbot
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
51,756
Location
Croatia
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Dead State Project: Eternity Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Are you a developer? If not, why do you care what some developer thinks?
I accept my unimportance.

The photo was someone complaining that a bunch of women "ruined" Obsidian. Well, Obsidian's been doing just fine by any metric (financially, critically, user reception). The people on the Codex who hate the games they're putting out now very likely also hated the games they were making back then as well, so what's changed here really?

Sure they are doing "fine", they make safe mediocre games that will cover the production costs and maybe even earn a few bucks, will be praised by critics and fans will give a positive review on release day only to admit year later that the game was bland and forgettable.

People at Obsidian might be happy with such arrangements but I personally only feel disappointment.

Games before PoE no matter their flaws had some spark of creativity to them. A grossly overused term used describing PoE was that it lacked "soul".

I enjoyed and defended pretty much every game Obsidian released before PoE and I even backed PoE. Obsidian was supposed to be the saviors of RPGs, "if only those pesky publishers didnt get in way of their visions!". "PoE will be that game that they always wanted to make and without publisher interference!"

Instead we only got mediocrity, safe, sanitized, mediocrity.
 

S.torch

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
1,154
Sounds like you prefer the lowbrow and find the highbrow very intimidating.
Obsidian is not highbrow, they write stuff that pretends to be deep in the surface but in reality is extremely shallow. They're basically midwits in the bell curve. Old Bethesda would be on the left and hardcore stuff like Dark Souls or Elden Ring on the right.

9blnno.jpg


If a game has tens of millions of players on Game Pass
That's still not selling millions. Because nobody is paying to actually play an Obsidian game, they're paying for Gamepass in the same way they're paying for Netflix.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
10,581
Location
Grand Chien

The photo was someone complaining that a bunch of women "ruined" Obsidian. Well, Obsidian's been doing just fine by any metric (financially, critically, user reception). The people on the Codex who hate the games they're putting out now very likely also hated the games they were making back then as well, so what's changed here really?
PoE 2 and Tyranny were both financial flops, and the vast majority of Codexers who like FNV happen to hate TOW.
Tyranny is also a shit game.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom