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Eternity Avowed - Obsidian's first person action-RPG in the Pillars of Eternity setting - coming February 18th

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
I'm not sure why everything needs to be so cutting edge. A group of devs, under an indy flag, aiming for the production values of the late aughts could absolutely clean up if they create a quality product. Shit can look like Oblivion so long as it plays like Gothic. Or am I being too optimistic? Do I need a rainbow rating and a kick in the ass?
Rolling back AAA games to the production values of the late 2000s would be the sane solution. But it won't happen. Mainstream gamers and publisher execs would both screech about the graphics not being good enough.
Josh says software bloat's gotten so bad that making a AA game is now even more difficult than making a AAA game from a decade ago.


I don't doubt that.

But is it a result of it being actually that much more complicated or it being a result of making it more complicated than it needs to be.

Administrative bloat is a real thing and tech suffers from it immensly.
 

covr

Prophet
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It is harder because game developers are dumb now and lack of any talent. They treat it as any other job, most of them are mediocre at best. While 20-30 y ago game devs were selected individuals with very strong technical skills. Women, normies and scrum destroyed the industry.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
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Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,279
It is harder because game developers are dumb now and lack of any talent. They treat it as any other job, most of them are mediocre at best. While 20-30 y ago game devs were selected individuals with very strong technical skills. Women, normies and scrum destroyed the industry.
You are wrong. Industry got much bigger and there is a limited number of such superdevs and they are probably spread out in many different companies.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
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While 20-30 y ago game devs were selected individuals with very strong technical skills.
The majority of game programmers are mediocre at best because the big money is in software (not game) development. A talented programmer who works in games would only do so because he has a lot of passion for it.
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
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Messages
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Lol the only AAA game he worked on was a glorified mod to Fallout 3, so of course everything after that is gonna be dramatically more complicated.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Lol the only AAA game he worked on was a glorified mod to Fallout 3, so of course everything after that is gonna be dramatically more complicated.
I wouldn't say New Vegas was AAA, it had a core team of 60 (and he also felt that was too much because he wasn't able to know everyone on the team).

Stormlands may have been AAA. Possibly Aliens as well, unless that was AA.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
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Jun 30, 2019
Messages
6,679
The majority of game programmers are mediocre at best because the big money is in software (not game) development. A talented programmer who works in games would only do so because he has a lot of passion for it.
Yeah, you're looking at about 20% wage gap between a gaming studio and, say, a financial software company (for a junior programmer position, it gets even bigger for regulars and seniors) where I'm at. Generally, almost everyone (not just programmers) working in game dev do so because they want to make games, not because they want to make money (though, obviously, they aren't going to work for free either. Gotta feed a family and all that). The reason for the longer development times is because the studios tend to be a lot bigger than those "teams from a garage" everyone seems to be harping about, and organization and communication turn out to be MASSIVE hurdless that can easily consume more than half the development time. Coming to an agreement (and, especially, trust in their work) between 5 guys in a garage is in entirely different ballpark from doing that with 60 people, not to mention each of those people has a lot smaller idea about what's the state of the other parts of the project, and VERY different ideas of where the project should be headed. This leads to frequent redesigns of core features, necessiating scrapping months of work.

As for why the studio needs to be so big to create a not-so-big game, it's because that people's standards when it comes to technical side of things have simply increased, and not just in the graphics department. There's very few games today that have only core mechanics, more often than not there's a shitload of various "smaller" mechanics, which however can easily cost just as much development time as core ones. RPGs now routinely come with crafting systems – you may stick your nose up at it, but the fact remains that most of the market expects it to be there, so it is being developed. People expect hundreds of quests and thousands of items, they expect massive enemy variety (with different models and different behaviors), they expect a better AI than "take the most direct route to player once he gets in range, deal damage on touch", they expect reputation systems and companions and all sorts of other shit, and all of it needs programmers to implement it, artists to create the models and textures, sound developers for audio, designers to create the actual content, and to balance the enemy stats, economy, etc., and that's not to mention QA, marketing, customer care, possible analytics (if you're making a multiplayer game), HR, management, etc.
 

Bohrain

Liturgist
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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Honestly, I doubt people would mind games with similar polycount to Oblivion if it was properly stylized and had decent shaders like Old Hans said. Sawyer himself insisted on having Deadfire fully voice acted because streamers complained about it, but lo and behold the game sold like shit compared Kingmaker.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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Yeah with Deadfire they've made huge bet on production values and years later it still remains the best looking isometric game, but it sold like shit. Obviously nice graphics always help but in this genre the audience wants more than just bling.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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The reason for the longer development times is because the studios tend to be a lot bigger than those "teams from a garage" everyone seems to be harping about, and organization and communication turn out to be MASSIVE hurdless that can easily consume more than half the development time. Coming to an agreement (and, especially, trust in their work) between 5 guys in a garage is in entirely different ballpark from doing that with 60 people, not to mention each of those people has a lot smaller idea about what's the state of the other parts of the project, and VERY different ideas of where the project should be headed. This leads to frequent redesigns of core features, necessiating scrapping months of work.
Garage dev games can also take a long time, either because it's a part time thing or the scope of what they're working on. Iron Tower's last release was November 2016, Colony Ship's taking nearly seven years.

Sawyer himself insisted on having Deadfire fully voice acted because streamers complained about it, but lo and behold the game sold like shit compared Kingmaker.

It was Feargus who insisted mid-development even though Sawyer told him doing so would break him (and it did).

Yeah with Deadfire they've made huge bet on production values and years later it still remains the best looking isometric game, but it sold like shit. Obviously nice graphics always help but in this genre the audience wants more than just bling.
This is outdated information. Deadfire eventually broke even and became profitable. Sawyer's belief is that its failure was on the marketing (Feargus shouldn't have burned bridges with Paradox, Versus Evil was unsuited for it).
 

Flou

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This is outdated information. Deadfire eventually broke even and became profitable. Sawyer's belief is that its failure was on the marketing (Feargus shouldn't have burned bridges with Paradox, Versus Evil was unsuited for it).
Any publisher other than Versus Evil would have been able to do a better job at marketing. They failed badly at it on both Deadfire and Banner Saga. They relied on the fact that these games were crowdfunded and it would do the trick, when actually both games needed more push as the crowdfunding madness had already peaked and was slowly withering away. I'm sure there would have been other options available as well even if Paradox wanted nothing do with Feargus at that point. But I guess Feargus saw the dollar dollar bills yo and thought to go with the offer that would give Obsidian the biggest cut.
 

Nikanuur

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It is harder because game developers are dumb now and lack of any talent. They treat it as any other job, most of them are mediocre at best. While 20-30 y ago game devs were selected individuals with very strong technical skills. Women, normies and scrum destroyed the industry.
This is likely true to some extent; same as the original statement before. However, both statements are not exclusive to each other. I'd even argue that the opposite is true, with one thing frequently leading to another.
 
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Nikanuur

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Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
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Messages
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CyberWhale as Sawyer said
If your contribution to the discussion is to disagree without recalling your own dev experience or the testimonials of other devs contradicting what I’m saying, contemplate if this is a) smart b) incredibly dumb.
 

CyberWhale

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Honestly, I doubt people would mind games with similar polycount to Oblivion if it was properly stylized and had decent shaders like Old Hans said. Sawyer himself insisted on having Deadfire fully voice acted because streamers complained about it, but lo and behold the game sold like shit compared Kingmaker.
Polycount really isn't an issue anymore, proper animations, especially facial (along with lipsync) are the main issue when we talk about modern production values. They could probably use certain automated tools, but people will definitely make fun out of it. The main problem is people starting to expect same graphical fidelity and production values in open-world/sandbox/RPG games as they are in linear single-player titles that last around 10 hours and have around the same number of important characters.
 

Nikanuur

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Obsidian hasn't released good RPG in over a decade. Unironically & Literally
Bah, your old fart is *hasn't released good RPG*, you moldering follower of the cult of "I rest my cases by overemphasizing my two subjective itches, because I am afraid nobody would relate to me if I wasn't like the others around me."
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Hope they are all doing 'side quests' and there is no main narrative. Just give me a comfy fantasy setting, let me explore and immerse and murder. Thats all I want from a first person game. I rarely went up the mountain to the beards in skyrim.
I thought I read upthread that they're narrowing the scope, making Avowed a more linear experience i.e. less side quest and "find your own fun" stuff.
 

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