Eternity Avowed - Obsidian's first person action-RPG in the Pillars of Eternity setting

[luj1]

completely sterile environment where nobody in town reacts to anything you do, whether it's stealing his food or bashing his head in or luring an enemy to a guard.

Remember this SJW turd had $80 mil budget

I can literally open 2 small mines (I work in the industrial metals industry) for this money and keep them operational for 5-15 years

 

[Butter]

150m on Avowed you reckon?
I'd guess less than 50m on the game and like 10m on marketing

Siri, what does it cost to employ a video game dev in southern California for 5 years?

 

[Infinitron]

The real question I need answered is why are autistic people so hypnotized by this company in particular?

RPG Codex was started by a group of Black Isle Studios and Troika Games fans, and Obsidian started as a Black Isle successor company and hired two of the founders of Troika. Obsessing about Obsidian is part of this community's DNA.

 

[luj1]

RPG Codex was started by a group of Black Isle Studios and Troika Games fans

And ended by a group of Obsidian shills, consisting of a jew and a transvestite (not even joking)

 

[luj1]

Obsessing about Obsidian is part of this community's DNA

If by "obsessing" you mean obsessive constant shilling, then yes

You pushed it with that fake Pillars retrospective, ofc that people have grown to dislike you (and deservedly so)

 

[Alienman]

Name games not using Bethbryo released in the past ten years that aren't. Far as I'm concerned this is braindead criticism.

Jagged Alliance 3, nigger, you could smash through damn near anything with the right caliber bullet- probably made on Unity. Baldur's fucking Gate 3, where you could pick and move damned near anything- a fucking custom engine.

 

[Orange Clock]

What pisses me off is how people are willing to excuse things like this too, as if they "don't matter". They do. If they aren't paying attention to the details then they are showing that they clearly don't give a shit. For a game like Avowed to have no basic item physics and hit collision is ridiculous and they should be mocked for that as much as for anything else.

Exactly. I also hated the argument used that a lot of cRPGs don't allow you to kill everyone and don't have interactive objects and whatnot. But we're talking about isometric games which are heavily abstracted by the virtue of the camera alone, and further abstracted by its combat systems (usually based on dice rolls). It's a translation of tabletop into a video game format. A first-person action game will and should have different expectations set upon it when it comes to world detail, interactivity and simulation, because it's more immersive by the virtue of the camera alone.

So yes, object physics, world simulation and interactivity are important in a game like Avowed. And the more abstract the genre (FPP -> TPP -> isometric), the less important they become, but should never be excused as "not mattering".

Nobody(except some autists) gave a fuck about such things then BioWare released their “classics”, CDPR made Witchers, Morrowind(best ES game) didn’t have them either, and now suddenly it’s the most important feature. OTOH people still beg Bethesda to change their engine, get rid of constant loading and make state capitals great again. Just look how many views videos such as “True Whietrun size in UE” get.

 

[JarlFrank]

Avowed(unlike any Bethesda game) has breakable objects, like pots and wooden boxes, you can break them with weapons or by simply walking over them, usually there’s some loot inside, in one dungeon I had to destroy several pots to enter a hidden room, I’d say it’s implemented on the same level as in AC:Origins(mentioned above).

Alright, that's valid, but the funny thing is that Roguey didn't bring this up in the game's defense when I mentioned AC: Origins. He could easily have said "Avowed actually does this", but instead he said "Ubisoft had more money and a better engine, so they could do what Avowed doesn't!"

I didn't know about this because I only saw the comparison videos. But Roguey should have known, had he actually played the game he defends so much...

 

[Ryzer]

The real question I need answered is why are autistic people so hypnotized by this company in particular?

RPG Codex was started by a group of Black Isle Studios and Troika Games fans, and Obsidian started as a Black Isle successor company and hired two of the founders of Troika. Obsessing about Obsidian is part of this community's DNA.

What did Obsidian do since then?

FNV? Some people find it good, I find it garbage

Mask of the betrayer? Awful game engine and shittiest camera ever

Pillars of eternity? *yawn*

Alpha Protocol? Espionage game without espionage LOL

Tyranny? Tyra-what?

 

[JarlFrank]

What did Obsidian do since then?

Disappoint.

 

[baba is you]

So how does Avowed compare to Outer Worlds?

Is it more trashy or is it better?

 

[Readher]

What pisses me off is how people are willing to excuse things like this too, as if they "don't matter". They do. If they aren't paying attention to the details then they are showing that they clearly don't give a shit. For a game like Avowed to have no basic item physics and hit collision is ridiculous and they should be mocked for that as much as for anything else.

Exactly. I also hated the argument used that a lot of cRPGs don't allow you to kill everyone and don't have interactive objects and whatnot. But we're talking about isometric games which are heavily abstracted by the virtue of the camera alone, and further abstracted by its combat systems (usually based on dice rolls). It's a translation of tabletop into a video game format. A first-person action game will and should have different expectations set upon it when it comes to world detail, interactivity and simulation, because it's more immersive by the virtue of the camera alone.

So yes, object physics, world simulation and interactivity are important in a game like Avowed. And the more abstract the genre (FPP -> TPP -> isometric), the less important they become, but should never be excused as "not mattering".

Nobody(except some autists) gave a fuck about such things then BioWare released their “classics”, CDPR made Witchers, Morrowind(best ES game) didn’t have them either, and now suddenly it’s the most important feature. OTOH people still beg Bethesda to change their engine, get rid of constant loading and make state capitals great again. Just look how many views videos such as “True Whietrun size in UE” get.

Those games released 20+ years ago, grandpa. Technology has evolved since then, and so should our expectations.

 

[luj1]

RPG Codex was started by a group of Black Isle Studios and Troika Games fans, and Obsidian started as a Black Isle successor company and hired two of the founders of Troika. Obsessing about Obsidian is part of this community's DNA.

What did Obsidian do since then?

FNV? Some people find it good, I find it garbage

Mask of the betrayer? Awful game engine and shittiest camera ever

Pillars of eternity? *yawn*

Alpha Protocol? Espionnage game without espionnage LOL

Tyranny? Tyra-what?

"Obsidian started as a Black Isle successor company"

Once Avellone left, the company turned into talentless woke trash

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

Jesus, characters trying to emote in this game is some heavy duty "Hello, fellow humans!" shit.

 

[Orange Clock]

What pisses me off is how people are willing to excuse things like this too, as if they "don't matter". They do. If they aren't paying attention to the details then they are showing that they clearly don't give a shit. For a game like Avowed to have no basic item physics and hit collision is ridiculous and they should be mocked for that as much as for anything else.

Exactly. I also hated the argument used that a lot of cRPGs don't allow you to kill everyone and don't have interactive objects and whatnot. But we're talking about isometric games which are heavily abstracted by the virtue of the camera alone, and further abstracted by its combat systems (usually based on dice rolls). It's a translation of tabletop into a video game format. A first-person action game will and should have different expectations set upon it when it comes to world detail, interactivity and simulation, because it's more immersive by the virtue of the camera alone.

So yes, object physics, world simulation and interactivity are important in a game like Avowed. And the more abstract the genre (FPP -> TPP -> isometric), the less important they become, but should never be excused as "not mattering".

Nobody(except some autists) gave a fuck about such things then BioWare released their “classics”, CDPR made Witchers, Morrowind(best ES game) didn’t have them either, and now suddenly it’s the most important feature. OTOH people still beg Bethesda to change their engine, get rid of constant loading and make state capitals great again. Just look how many views videos such as “True Whietrun size in UE” get.

Those games released 20+ years ago, grandpa. Technology has evolved since then, and so should our expectations.

Hmm, didn’t know that Cyberpunk was released 20 years ago. Or are you posting from the future? If so tell me, how is it in 2040s? Do we have flying cars? Did Trump name himself a God-Emperor of Mankind? Was Fallout 5 released?

 

[Nelka]

At least you tried you're not Veilguard.

I can count like 4 lies in the title alone

 

[Ryzer]

RPG Codex was started by a group of Black Isle Studios and Troika Games fans, and Obsidian started as a Black Isle successor company and hired two of the founders of Troika. Obsessing about Obsidian is part of this community's DNA.

What did Obsidian do since then?

FNV? Some people find it good, I find it garbage

Mask of the betrayer? Awful game engine and shittiest camera ever

Pillars of eternity? *yawn*

Alpha Protocol? Espionnage game without espionnage LOL

Tyranny? Tyra-what?

"Obsidian started as a Black Isle successor company"

Once Avellone left, the company turned into talentless woke trash

Sawyer used to make Icewind Dale and now he makes *glurp* Asoyed.

 

[Readher]

Cyberpunk

Cyberpunk what? The game was dogshit and there was a lot of posts on plebbit and elsewhere where people were disappointed that the city is pretty but is just a movie set-piece with 0 interactivity, wooden NPC AI, police bounty system worse than GTA 3 and traffic simulation worse than a fucking LEGO game. Only normies who don't even like RPGs and just play movie games were wowed by Cyberpunk. All those "Real size Whiterun in UE" is how you end up with TW3 Novigrad or CP Night City - a pretty movie set piece that has 0 systems you can interact with as a player. I'll take Bethesda's village-sized capital instead if I have to choose (though I wish I didn't have to), thanks.

 

[Maldoror]

Jesus, characters trying to emote in this game is some heavy duty "Hello, fellow humans!" shit.

I find mocapped animation in current video games so much more uncanny, unsettling and shitty looking than old games with their janky stop-and-start animations. I'm not even being remotely sardonic when I say that I honestly find Oblivion's facial animations more appealing.

There's this trend in games since like 2013 or 2014 where characters NEVER STOP FUCKING MOVING THEIR HEADS OR EYES when there's a pause in dialogue. They keep glancing around like something is about to happen and it unnerves the deepest part o my autism brain. Disgusting. Just look at me deadpan with no animations until I'm ready to respond to you.
Fuck.

 

[v1c70r14]

What pisses me off is how people are willing to excuse things like this too, as if they "don't matter". They do. If they aren't paying attention to the details then they are showing that they clearly don't give a shit.

I've followed the argument on the last couple of pages with some interest but it failed to properly develop, even this sentiment while correct doesn't cut it either. Obviously Roguey is wrong again as usual even if the things people post in response leave me wanting. Let's remedy this, shall we?

First Principles of Gaming and Why They Matter: Or Why Avoided is Shit

One of the absolutely basic and fundamental assumptions that are core to the entire world of gaming, not just digital video games, but all forms of games, is that the input of the player matters. The player makes a move or performs an in-game action according to predetermined rules and this has consequences to the game. I think we can all agree that this is the case, that if there is no activity on the account of the player it isn't a game at all.

This established we can move on to examine precisely what Obsidian has done that is so very bad in relation to this core idea. When it is pointed out that Obsidian has less dynamic interactivity this is hand-waved by Roguey with the answer that such things were never aimed for and it is wrong to judge a game for what it doesn't do, rather than what it aims to do and what it actually does. But what isn't being said by anyone in this thread so far is that not only has Obsidian moved into this genre niche with particular conventions and expectations, but also that there is a difference between not doing something at all, and letting the player do something to no effect.

Gaben's immortal wisdom applies here.



When a game allows you to shoot arrows all over the place, or swing your sword in any direction, or emphasize narrative choice and player freedom, it disrespects the player when doing these things yields no results. Be it in the sense of simulation that jumping into a water puddle doesn't make splashes, or throwing a grenade in a lake doesn't cause an even bigger splash, or that shooting a wall with a gun doesn't even produce bullet holes. Or simply that attacking an enemy doesn't do damage, or enough damage. These things are worse than doing nothing at all. In terms of the pure RPG genre we can compare it to skills or abilities not being properly or implemented at all but still letting the player pick them.

These sort of locked down cinematic games that don't allow you to hack away at anyone with a sword, or cause a mess in the cities by demolishing clutter, usually deal with this problem of not wanting to depict destruction or deal with the player's agency by simply removing it altogether. The typical AAA on-rails game in first person forces you to lower your gun when you aim at a friendly NPC, or removes your ability entirely to use weapons within certain zones. Avoided doesn't do this, instead letting you ineffectively pelt annoying characters with arrows or swing your sword right through them, which is even worse than not being able to do this at all.

If you think about it like this you'll notice that these things are not separate issues, being able to kill other characters, being able to move around objects, physics simulation, and general player agency. It's all one thing and Avoided tramples over all of it. Baldur's Gate 1, as bad as it was, allowed you to attack anyone, anywhere, because that was one of the ways you could interact with the game, one of the moves or actions. If there was some very annoying fight after a dialogue and you wanted to set things up better you could often just ignore the dialogue entirely and attack the enemy if initially not hostile on your own terms. Nobody complained about a lack of physics simulation because it wasn't one of the ways you interacted with the game, it doesn't matter if arrows get stuck in say a wooden sign or not if that's not within the possibility space to begin with and you can only fire them when you target enemies.

When it comes to first person action games environmental dynamism is fairly important since the realm of possibility here is that you can click the attack button and see what happens. Even back in 1996 Duke Nukem 3D understood this conceptually and allowed you to shoot objects to destroy or move them about, explode weak parts of walls to create passageways, and shoot innocent bystanders. In the phrasing of Roguey, Apogee didn't set out to make a game about murdering strippers, but that the game had to allow them to get shot even if not encouraged was a big part of respecting player agency. The less the environment and objects and entities within it react to the act of shooting, the less it feels like shooting.

It all goes back to Tim Cain's philosophy that if the player wants to do something within the scope of the game, she should be able to to do so, and have that decision respected. The only thing that has changed from his Black Isle days is that scope of the games have considerably shrunk, and even that is no longer fulfilled, giving you IOUs instead. It goes beyond developers showing that they don't care, or incompetency, lack of technical skill, choice of engine, lack of physics. It's much more fundamental than that.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

I also hated the argument used that a lot of cRPGs don't allow you to kill everyone and don't have interactive objects and whatnot. But we're talking about isometric games which are heavily abstracted by the virtue of the camera alone, and further abstracted by its combat systems (usually based on dice rolls). It's a translation of tabletop into a video game format. A first-person action game will and should have different expectations set upon it when it comes to world detail, interactivity and simulation, because it's more immersive by the virtue of the camera alone.

TTRPGs have infinite interactivity compared to the average cRPG. The only things they lack is obviously an accurate simulation of the environments.

Interactivity with the environments and in general, the possibility to have emergent gameplay to allow creative/alternate solutions, both in combat and outside combat, should be a given in any "abstract" isometric cRPGs too that try to emulate TTRPGs. But this is often not implemented. (By the way, this lack of interactivity is one of the reasons I didn't like Baldur's Gate and I considered it decline with respect the original Fallout when it came out).

Ideally cRPGs (iso or FP) could be the perfect medium to simulate an interactive environment, introducing real physics, or in general more complex interactions even if those are still abstract. Too bad the only thing that seems to matter in videgames is the effort to achieve "photorealistic" (lol) graphics, even if everyting is just a static backround, and the only thing you are free to do is to pew pew enemies.

 

[Poseidon00]

I kind of already know, I'll never play another Beth, bioware or obsidian game again.

I suspect this is also the case for me. The bridge is burned, their "creative direction" and what I want from a game now have almost zero overlap.

 

[Fedora Master]

As usual the Codex is putting way more thought into things than the devs or most fans.

Avowed bad. Obsidian dum. Roguey and Infinitron shills.
Simple as.

 

[Sergio]

Glorious PS5 didn't get violated with this filth.

 

[Sweeper]

When a game allows you to shoot arrows all over the place, or swing your sword in any direction, or emphasize narrative choice and player freedom, it disrespects the player when doing these things yields no results. Be it in the sense of simulation that jumping into a water puddle doesn't make splashes, or throwing a grenade in a lake doesn't cause an even bigger splash, or that shooting a wall with a gun doesn't even produce bullet holes. Or simply that attacking an enemy doesn't do damage, or enough damage. These things are worse than doing nothing at all.

...
So more realism is what you're saying?