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Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Have there been any games that have tried to subvert it and make racism good? (Besides the obvious neo-nazi and kebab terrorist games)

The word itself carries with it an air of injustice, unjustified prejudices and unfair discrimination. You can't subvert racism because it's always those qualities. Making all orcs be "evil" won't subvert racism because it would be justified then.
 
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Bubbles

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Have there been any games that have tried to subvert it and make racism good? (Besides the obvious neo-nazi and kebab terrorist games)

The word itself carries with it an air of injustice, unjustified prejudices and unfair discrimination. You can't subvert racism because it's always those qualities. Making all orcs be "evil" won't subvert racism because it would be justified then.

You could make a Forgotten Realms game where the elven race is presented as murderous barbarians, knowing that this isn't actually true in the "real" FR. That would be racist, I'd say.
 
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Excidium II

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Have there been any games that have tried to subvert it and make racism good? (Besides the obvious neo-nazi and kebab terrorist games)

The word itself carries with it an air of injustice, unjustified prejudices and unfair discrimination. You can't subvert racism because it's always those qualities. Making all orcs be "evil" won't subvert racism because it would be justified then.

You could make a Forgotten Realms game where the elven race is presented as murderous barbarians, knowing that this isn't actually true in the "real" FR. That would be racist, I'd say.
Sounds like Athasian elves. From Dark Sun's Freedom adventure module:

krglol.png
 
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Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
You could make a Forgotten Realms game where the elven race is presented as murderous barbarians, knowing that this isn't actually true in the "real" FR. That would be racist, I'd say.

In the context of that game racism against the elves isn't going to be racism, it's either just going to be a tribal conflict or necessary survival and then it would be justified. Besides, being a murderous barbarian isn't linked to any race, so that's doubly meaningless.

To subvert this kind of thing you first have to subvert the notions of injustice and unfairness. You have to make such a game as to make these qualities logically positive (i.e. not just a bizarro-version where everything is "upside down" or where people just assume those are positive qualities just because) and then all things connected to them would be subverted automatically. I just don't know how you can do that.
 
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Bubbles

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In the context of that game racism against the elves isn't going to be racism, it's either just going to be a tribal conflict or necessary survival and then it would be justified. Besides, being a murderous barbarian isn't linked to any race, so that's doubly meaningless.

You could easily link it to the Elves. Have a game in the FR setting, maybe have a few human NPCs standing around reminding you of how cool and diverse the elven race is, but then have every single Elf you meet in the taverns, on the fields, in the dungeons be a ticking timebomb, a bloodthirstsy lunatic with murderous intentions, prone to flying into rages and killing women and children at the slightest provocation. Give them diverse backgrounds and motivations, make sure the only connecting factor is their racial background and you'll eventually teach players to be extremely distrustful of every elf they meet. And they would be right every time. The wider setting of the FR would still be full of "normal" elves, but the player characters could be taught to doubt that in the context of that particular string of adventures. You'd condition them towards racist thought.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Also the whole concept that "Officers Are Cowards" is retarded in that setting.
Faiths and Deities affect the world directly, for instance, and only the purest of the faithful of any given order manage to get to its highest ranks.
If anything, it's the opposite.

This is nothing new in Fantasy, after all.
In LotR the highest ranking characters certainly didn't lack courage (or malice, in the other camp); actually they set the chivalrous example for anyone else.

Truly these guys at Beamdog don't even know the BASICS of what they're supposed to be writing about.
That line about officers smacks of 20th-century anti-military sentiment, and it's woefully out of place in a pseudo-medieval setting even a fantasy one. But then, I'm sure the writers are as ignorant of military history as of anything else.

Sounds like Athasian elves.
And the Dark Sun setting also features feral halfling tribes that feast on humans and demi-humans.
 
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Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
You could easily link it to the Elves. Have a game in the FR setting, maybe have a few human NPCs standing around reminding you of how cool and diverse the elven race is, but then have every single Elf you meet in the taverns, on the fields, in the dungeons be a ticking timebomb, a bloodthirstsy lunatic with murderous intentions, prone to flying into rages and killing women and children at the slightest provocation. Give them diverse backgrounds and motivations, make sure the only connecting factor is their racial background and you'll eventually teach players to be extremely distrustful of every elf they meet. And they would be right every time. The wider setting of the FR would still be full of "normal" elves, but the player characters could be taught to doubt that in the context of that particular string of adventures. You'd condition them towards racist thought.

But that doesn't subvert anything, that's the point. It would be justified and it won't be racism because it's just necessary survival. Racism is UNFAIR, UNJUSTIFIED and UNJUST (and it can't be anything else), not simply a learned reaction towards something specific. Even if it isn't, it still won't be "good", only neutral, as surviving doesn't carry moralistic overtones.
 
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Bubbles

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But that doesn't subvert anything, that's the point. It would be justified and it won't be racism because it's just necessary survival. Racism is UNFAIR, UNJUSTIFIED and UNJUST (and it can't be anything else), not simply a learned reaction towards something specific. Even if it isn't, it still won't be "good", only neutral, as surviving doesn't carry moralistic overtones.

It would be an unjustified reaction to the first "normal" elf they meet after these adventures; that would be outside the scope of this hypothetical racist game, but it can be imagined as a logical extension of what you know about the state of the setting (i.e. that not all elves are bloodthirsty killers). And you can easily spin the party's actions as protecting other innocents from the murderous (but, let's say, relatively low level) elves, which would be a good thing.
 
Weasel
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I know this isn't what was being asked ("make racism good") but I remember reading about early European sailors in East Asia who used to regard the Chinese and other locals as backwards cultures way beneath them and mocked their traditions and way of life. This included stuff like regular bathing, as these were pretty rough and filthy sailors who didn't believe in these laughable foreign habits like bathing every day.

It made me think of an RPG where, instead of lecturing the player about the evils of racism with some lame and awkward lines, one could give the player options that would be appropriate to characters like these - who believe they are superior but constantly do stuff which actually makes them inferior. Ideally it would be fun to do and appropriate to the character (just using bathing as an example here but there are many other options , say playing a band of looters who don't just neatly take cool gear but when they loot destroy ancient libraries and temples in the process), but if it was done well you'd occasionally end up thinking about what sort of situation you'd ended up in and how you managed to get there.

Of course then I thought of an end game where you'd constantly made the cool/easy/instant gratification choice and instead of ending up as a DnD god you were fat, broke, diseased and hated by everyone... and how players would probably want to attain that state for the lols. The issue with games as a medium I guess. But still, a small dose of something subtle along these lines would be preferable to obvious preachy stuff.
 

Metal Hurlant

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Codex USB, 2014 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Now, a good DM, or CRPG writer can explore this themes, but making them a) subtle and b) relevant to both setting, and the theme and the mood of the campaign. But both theme and the mood of original BG (especially the first one) wasn't about exploration of class oppression, gender equality and gender politics, LGBTQABBQ rights and complexes, money distribution among downtrodden and so on. So SOD rubs most players in wrong way not because of "leftism", but because the authors' approach was something like this: imagine you playing an epic campaign in a span of a few years. You have your favourite NPCs, DM provides kick-ass dungeons, sweet loot, great combat, somewhat retarded, but enjoyable NPC drama and nice overreaching story. And then, out of the blue, this campaign goes to another DM, who proceeds with imposing on a bewildered party his view on women rights, importance of pronouns and battling transmisogyny, insists that your sweet loot should be distributed among underprivileged classes, etc, etc. Most tabletop players would quit in such circumstances, only minority, which shares the new DM views, will remain. And that's basically what we're seing here.

This really speaks volumes. Definitely the best analogy I've come across and it's what comes across to me with going from BG to SoD.
 

Metal Hurlant

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Codex USB, 2014 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Imoen's portrait has been changed too. Haven't gone far enough to check Jaheira yet. I suspect to slowly transition the characters changing from BG1 to BG2.
 

Metal Hurlant

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Codex USB, 2014 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Both are correct. Viconia's new portrait is from an old portrait pack and it's just a recoloured BG2 portrait. Modders gonna mod.
 

Western

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Codex 2012 Codex 2014 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
Reading the reviews here, I swear the Codex has some of the best writers on the net.
:notsureifserious:

It says more about the quality of writers in games journalism than anything else.

mastroego -- There are lots of them from days of yore. Looking at more recent stuff, there's Goodkind's Sword of Truth series and John C. Wright's Golden Age, both of which were mass-market releases from major publishers.
Hhmm, ok, still things with very minor cultural impact.
Well, not a lot of contemporary speculative fiction has a major cultural impact. The strongest impact comes from older stuff where there is a considerable right-leaning presence (Lovecraft, Howard, C.A. Smith, arguably C.S. Lewis*). Nevertheless, Sword of Truth sold >25M copies as of 2008 and spawned a TV show. Other examples would be Orson Scott Card's stuff*, Niven and Pournelle's writing. Atlas Shrugged, but even though it's science fiction it probably belongs more to the Serious Allegorical Science Fiction category with We, 1984, Brave New World, etc.

(* With Lewis and Card, it's a bit complicated because their Christian/LDS proselytizing converges with left-wing stuff, at times, when it comes to issues like pacifism.)

I'm curious about your opinion on Star Ship Troopers, very political (the first half is basically a manifesto on building a state) but perhaps a testament to how much you can get away with if you can make something entertaining as well as political.
 

GarfunkeL

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Insert clever insult here
This is Viconia in original Baldur's Gate in 640x480 glory:
XWaSHAL.png


I have it always installed in case I need to redo BGT or I fancy a stroll across the Sword Coast like it's 1998 again.

And it's not her BG2 portrait either. This is how she looks in BG2:
Viconia_Portrait_BG2.png


Pretty sure she has a third portrait in SoD for some reason.

But why the fuck would Beamdog change it? This is still an expansion to BG1. Use the fucking BG1 portraits if you're trying to be official. Mods exist for a reason.
 
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Bubbles

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But the Imoen one is new.

Imoen is an interesting case, since it's a blend of her BG1 and BG2 pictures with a few added details:

9zIJAiT.jpg
lwOBoC3.png
Gn8fy8z.png


Mouth and nose are a flipped and slightly adjusted version of her BG1 portrait. The eyes are taken from the BG1 portrait as well, but the hair and eyebrows are based on the BG2 version.
 
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Excidium II

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This is Viconia in original Baldur's Gate in 640x480 glory:
XWaSHAL.png


I have it always installed in case I need to redo BGT or I fancy a stroll across the Sword Coast like it's 1998 again.

And it's not her BG2 portrait either. This is how she looks in BG2:
Viconia_Portrait_BG2.png


Pretty sure she has a third portrait in SoD for some reason.

But why the fuck would Beamdog change it? This is still an expansion to BG1. Use the fucking BG1 portraits if you're trying to be official. Mods exist for a reason.
It's what we are talking about it. Viconia has a new portrait, that is just a custom one based on her BG2 version, from an old mod pack that makes her look more like a drow priestess of shar (skin and clothes color).
 
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Bubbles

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Viconia's BG1 portrait makes her look ugly and they're likely deeply ashamed the BG2 portrait was traced from http://i.imgur.com/lnwzP.jpg (not work safe)
The new one is just a recolor based on this one so they can't be that ashamed. :M

post-5803-127974005462.jpg


They just shopped some bits.

That's not her SoD portrait, that's just a fan version from the beamdog forums.


Victonia actually gets a new face in SoD, which I hadn't noticed before because I wasn't looking very closely. The rest is still a straight-up recolouring though:

igYtVuu.png
Ck6sAnN.png
 

Roguey

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SMH Beamdog, deeply problematic.

Damnit, thanks Bubbles. Problematic elements purged.
 

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