Baldurs Gate 2: Capstone to the Golden Era of crpg's?

[ghostdog]

there is a patch for realms of arcania, search the pathces scrolls

 

[dagorkan]

Yeah, just do a search on google and you'll find the patch mentioned, it's hardly very difficulty or game stopping...

That said I dislike the RoA2 portraits for some reason, they look deformed, I like the simplicity of the art in RoA1 even if it's nothing special

 

[Binary]

Ugh, Magic Candle. It sounded so good and played like crap. And it's fugly. Like, srsly.

(Translation: I couldn't get into it, unlike DSA/RoA which is accessible and fun, and doesn't look so hideous. Graphics whore? Yes, maybe, but the two games aren't that far apart, are they?)

3 years between The Magic Candle (1989) and RoA:BoD (1992).

Magic Candle 1 is the best of the series, but if your problem is the outdated gfx, give Magic Candle 3 a try, or go for Bloodstone (in terms of storyline it's a prequel to MC1.

One detail about Magic Candle 1 that makes it unique, is that dungeon encounters are like chess positions: you always find monsters in specific rooms, FAQs/walkthroughs will have suggestions of the specific spots you should place your own characters.

Even the character/party creation is original and was never done again in any cRPG that came after: take a look at a manual to see how "Lukas" is chosen as the party leader for the quest.

- You'll possibly enjoy the open world and non-linearity of Ultima 6 or 7

These games are still in my priority list in the pool of ''old games, that have to be at least tried once'', but quite honestly, i'm not big fan of pure exploration. I like Gothic games for their sanbox/exploration moments, but only because there were also tight narrative and lots of concrete thing to do. If Ultimas are anything close to TES the model of role-playing, i'll pass.

No, it's not related at all. The world is smaller, towns are distinct, characters as well (and have portraits ). The games are not based on exploration, it's just that you can do the main quests in the order you feel, when you feel.

- And the different solutions to different problems were present in the Quest for Glory series since 1989.

From what i've read, this is an adventure game. No?

Where did you get that idea from? I find it surprising that some people can call QfG and adventure and PST a RPG - I'd personally say the opposite. Give one of them a try, QfG4 is my favorite, but QfG1 is great too (especially if you intend to play the whole series).

- The nicely written story of Betrayal in Krondor is also a nice one to try.

I like nicely written stories. However, it's not the element that makes or breaks crpg. Story, if it's good, only complements a good crpg. Some action games have really good stories.

Sure, but there are many things going for it besides the story. The story is the most outstanding feature.

 

[Gladi]

Grr, university internet ate my post.

I was just curious, what is this pnp experience people talk about. Considering it all oficially started with Chainmail. First version of DnD was: pwn d4 0rcz n t4k3 th3ir l00t!1!

 

[Jasede]

I will explain: most non-drone larvae think P&P is all about role-playing and choices, and hence call the older RPGs like Goldbox and EoB non-RPGs because they don't have that. They conveniently forget how D&D developed and what those RPG systems were, back in the day, and hence cling to their delusion that everything that isn't a Fallout-like is not an RPG, whereas to them every real RPG, good old dungeon crawlers, are not RPGs. Hah! They'll even call them "combat simulators", and then go at lengths to prove that System Shock and Deus Ex are RPGs in their sick, twisted minds.

Shagnak would understand...

 

[dagorkan]

'Role Playing Game' vs 'Role Playing Simulator' I thought was an interesting distinction...

Fallout is definitely an RPS, whereas most of the Gold Boxes, EOTB clones are not (but are 'RPGs')

On the other hand Deus Ex, SS2 are obviously neither and only the congenitally moronic could pretend otherwise.

 

[Jasede]

Hey, you make a great point. We should use those, RPG and RPS, and put an end to the senseless debates once and for all.

 

[ghostdog]

Of course! And games like DeusEx should be called AGwSaGS... Action games with stats and great story, this will solve all the problems.

 

[Jasede]

Why not?

 

[Mamon]

What some people don´t like to realize is that "CnC" is not exclusive to RPGs. CnC can improve other genras like Adventure, action, action/adventure, shooters and, why not, sports (if the dev is creative enough). A shooter (Deus Ex) should not be considered an rpg just because it has some rpg elements or cnc.

 

[JarlFrank]

C&C is a primary part of role playing, but not necessarily of an RPG. If we take the words literally, we can make this distinction. Role playing as in playing the role of a character either in PnP or in a CRPG, that is, taking over the role of a premade or self-created character and acting according to his character traits in the gameworld.

RPGs, on the other hand, originated from the good old Dungeon Crawling, both in PnP as well as in CRPGs. One day some people thought "Hey it's called Role Playing Games, so let's add some emphasis on the "role playing" part of them!", and thus stuff like Fallout was created, and people began making backstories for their PnP characters.

Saying dungeon crawlers aren't RPGs because they lack elements that only have been introduced into RPGs much later is stupid. Nowadays the word "RPG" might mean Fallout-like. Back then "RPG" meant dungeon crawler. Simple as that. Times have changed, elements of RPGs have changed, and thus also definitons have changed. If dungeon crawlers don't fit into your view of RPG, okay. But they still *are* RPGs, heck, they were the ultimate definition of RPG back when they were made. So there is no reasonable arument, NONE AT ALL, to say dungeon crawlers aren't RPGs.


It's like saying silent movies aren't movies because the definition of the word "movie" has changed. It's stupid.

 

[dagorkan]

It's like saying silent movies aren't movies because the definition of the word "movie" has changed. It's stupid.

Um, a movie means a 'motion picture'. That's always been the definition and has never changed.

 

[JarlFrank]

It's like saying silent movies aren't movies because the definition of the word "movie" has changed. It's stupid.

Um, a movie means a 'motion picture'. That's always been the definition and has never changed.

Yes, it was a stupid example, but if the definition would ever change... well, what other example could we take? Let's say you don't see the first computer ever built as a computer anymore, because nowadays computers are a hell lot more complex than back then. It still is a computer, no matter what. You get my point.

 

[Binary]

I will explain: most non-drone larvae think P&P is all about role-playing and choices, and hence call the older RPGs like Goldbox and EoB non-RPGs because they don't have that. They conveniently forget how D&D developed and what those RPG systems were, back in the day, and hence cling to their delusion that everything that isn't a Fallout-like is not an RPG, whereas to them every real RPG, good old dungeon crawlers, are not RPGs. Hah! They'll even call them "combat simulators", and then go at lengths to prove that System Shock and Deus Ex are RPGs in their sick, twisted minds.

Are you my long lost twin brother or something?

 

[Gnidrologist]

I will explain: most non-drone larvae think P&P is all about role-playing and choices, and hence call the older RPGs like Goldbox and EoB non-RPGs because they don't have that. They conveniently forget how D&D developed and what those RPG systems were, back in the day, and hence cling to their delusion that everything that isn't a Fallout-like is not an RPG, whereas to them every real RPG, good old dungeon crawlers, are not RPGs. Hah! They'll even call them "combat simulators", and then go at lengths to prove that System Shock and Deus Ex are RPGs in their sick, twisted minds.

Shagnak would understand...

So, from what you say i get that pnp role playing games are nothing more than dungeon crawling combat games set in fictional world. At least it's how they were initially perceived.
If it's true than i make myself corrected. I don't wan't any pnp experience like thing in my crpgs. I want something like Fallout delivers generally. Something that elevates above this booring pnp thing, that only (as you said) focuses on monster bashing and loot hoarding.

 

[DraQ]

*chants eerily*
Choices and consequences! Choices and consequences!

 

[Jasede]

You should check out Age of Decadence then, it's some cool RPS made by some guy, I think he was a mod here once or something. It's pretty promising.

 

[afewhours]

You should check out Age of Decadence then, it's some cool RPS made by some guy, I think he was a mod here once or something. It's pretty promising.

Is that the game with lesbian romance in it? Or was I thinking of something else?

 

[Jaime Lannister]

So games with role-playing are now "role-playing simulations"?

Why are games like Fallout which improve on the classic dungeon crawler cRPG being bashed relentlessly on the Codex of all places?

 

[Jasede]

There are no women in AoD because the creator is a supporter of the gay agenda.

Jaime, nobody is bashing Fallout, but it's important to remind the new kids of their roots and teach them not to hate dungeon crawlers and never forget what RPGs used to be about.

 

[dolio]

So, from what you say i get that pnp role playing games are nothing more than dungeon crawling combat games set in fictional world.

Well, that's probably not an accurate description of pen and paper these days (can't say I've played it myself, but that's the impression I get). There are plenty of people who go around lamenting the decline of role playing and story in favor of tweaking your character's stat sheet out that newer D&D editions allegedly encourage, for instance.

But D&D did originally grow out of tabletop war games, where people decided it'd be better for a few people to each control one really cool guy, and fight monsters instead of having a bunch of troops each, or something along those lines. Although I can't say I understand why they'd have called them role playing games if having a story/personality for your character and acting according to it (which is what most pen and paper people who talk about "role playing" mean these days) wasn't part of the game. Unless you consider "this is a wizard named Mordenkainen" to be sufficient, and actual story telling is just a major embellishment upon that.

 

[Andhaira]

Peoples moods are evolving however, as are their expectations. TOEE is a great example of a fantastic (bugs aside!)dungeon crawler, yet many people lamnet its lack of npc interaction, boring quests, etc.

OTOH Wizardry 8 (4 years earlier) was hailed for what it was.

So basically people have differing expectations today. In fact industry leaders such as Bioware are responsible somewhat for making people think in a certain way and for changing their expectations: Romances in rpg's really took off after bg2 and are now expected in any bioware game and party based rpg's in general.

 

[dagorkan]

So games with role-playing are now "role-playing simulations"?

Why are games like Fallout which improve on the classic dungeon crawler cRPG being bashed relentlessly on the Codex of all places?

Um, why do you think RPS is derogatory. It's a more accurate label to distinguish between different types of games traditionally thought of as 'Role Playing Games'. Personally I prefer Fallout-type games (RPSes) to the old-school dungeon crawlers though I'll play them too.

So basically people have differing expectations today. In fact industry leaders such as Bioware are responsible somewhat for making people think in a certain way and for changing their expectations: Romances in rpg's really took off after bg2 and are now expected in any bioware game and party based rpg's in general.

That's just great. The average 'RPGer' today is more of a faggot than the RPGer of a decade ago, thank you Bioware for bringing the genre forward.

 

[JarlFrank]

Peoples moods are evolving however, as are their expectations. TOEE is a great example of a fantastic (bugs aside!)dungeon crawler, yet many people lamnet its lack of npc interaction, boring quests, etc.

OTOH Wizardry 8 (4 years earlier) was hailed for what it was.

So basically people have differing expectations today. In fact industry leaders such as Bioware are responsible somewhat for making people think in a certain way and for changing their expectations: Romances in rpg's really took off after bg2 and are now expected in any bioware game and party based rpg's in general.

TOEE was made by people famous for their RPGs with lots of C&C and roleplaying opportunities, and relatively good story. So people naturally expected it to be similar to the past games they made. [I guess they even said they'd inlcude some of those features] In the end it was something different from what the people expected. Wizardry 8 was a dungeon crawler from the beginning, so everyone was delighted that it turned out to be such a good dungeon crawler.

Let's say it like this: If Oblivion wouldn't have been hyped as the best thing ever, but rather Bethesda had accurately described its real features before release, I wouldn't have been disappointed. Disappointment only comes when you expect something else than you finally get.

 

[DOS-fanboy]

I will explain: most non-drone larvae think P&P is all about role-playing and choices, and hence call the older RPGs like Goldbox and EoB non-RPGs because they don't have that. They conveniently forget how D&D developed and what those RPG systems were, back in the day, and hence cling to their delusion that everything that isn't a Fallout-like is not an RPG, whereas to them every real RPG, good old dungeon crawlers, are not RPGs. Hah! They'll even call them "combat simulators", and then go at lengths to prove that System Shock and Deus Ex are RPGs in their sick, twisted minds.

I still hold up the Goldbox games as the ultimate example of what a D&D CRPG should be. I recently re-started a Curse of the Azure Bonds game and played it for five hours straight before realizing I needed to wake up the next morning.

The RPG tag is slapped on everything nowadays. Mass Effect, Bioshock, the diablo-esque crap that was called "Two Worlds". It's rather sad how many games are called RPGs now that back 15-20 years ago would have been called Shooters or "Adventure games"

This is why I still play ToEE.