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Baldurs Gate 2: Capstone to the Golden Era of crpg's?

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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Lesifoere said:
Btw, I'm a lit student. Have never read The Little Prince.

What's your nationality? The Little Prince is a standard work in most francophonic countries, and has spread deeply to other nations, but I doubt it's considered a standard or obligatory reading in anglophonic nations, especially since it's a hybrid child's tale/allegorical tale, which is probably below the average lit snob.

Lesifoere said:
For what it's worth, however, imposing "it must do so, and so, and so in order to be a great story" expectations and limitations is at best foolish, at worst reductive.

And at it's oddest neo-constructivist. AMIRITE FELLAS?!

afewhours said:
I've been working on my novel in my spare time

Never heard that one before :D

PS: I'm glad my university course is more practical and gets less bogged down on the endless whining of academics.
 

afewhours

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Brother None said:
Never heard that one before

A man has to keep busy somehow! Heh heh. I understand your point - good intentions are largely rubbish aren't they? I can honestly say I'm making good progress, though. Once I'm satisfied with what I've got, I'll link it to the Codex, but not before. Until then, feel free to regard me as a pretentious dreamer! :D

Brother None said:
And at it's oddest neo-constructivist. AMIRITE FELLAS?!

Damn. I was getting mixed up with the neo-structuralists. Fucking literary theory. :D

In NN's defence, I think he was referring to the classic archplot, which is the form the vast majority of fiction takes - especially in film, which is the most populous medium. I'm an old-fashioned dialogue junky myself, so give me strong characterisation over yer fancy-pants postmodern myth-making internal monologues any day!
 

Lesifoere

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Brother None said:
What's your nationality? The Little Prince is a standard work in most francophonic countries, and has spread deeply to other nations, but I doubt it's considered a standard or obligatory reading in anglophonic nations, especially since it's a hybrid child's tale/allegorical tale, which is probably below the average lit snob.

There was going to be a children's fiction module this year in my uni, but the person who does it withdrew it at the last minute. Aslkgsjhs;h.

With that said, I'm studying English lit in the UK, so that is probably why. Funny, now that you mention it. There're a few translated works on my syllabus over three years--Chekhov, Ibsen, that kind of thing--but I don't think there's a single French writer outside of medieval ones and du Maurier, but then Trilby was written in English.
 

afewhours

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Lesifoere said:
I don't think there's a single French writer outside of medieval ones and du Maurier, but then Trilby was written in English.

That means you'll be spared Foucault and Lacan, good good. In all fairness, Foucault can be surprisingly lucid, but Lacan? Fucking nutcase.
 

Naked Ninja

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A lot of the pomo theorists and writers astonished me with the amount of rubbish they could talk.

I'm getting that feeling right now.

Dialog? Who said they have dialogue? It's a monologue of the Little Prince. more than it's a dialogue, so I'm sorry, your point is no point. You can't really argue against the point if you've never read the book, though, that's just weird.

Hmmm...

<replays>

NN : Fallout's narrative and story is so weak EXACTLY because the characters aren't tied strongly to the plot

Ratty : Nuh-uh! Little prince is proof this is rubbish!

NN : Never read it, but wiki says its a dialog, doesn't that mean the characters pretty much are the plot?

Brother None : Hah! Fool, it's a monologue, your point is stupid.

Ummmm...wouldn't a book thats a monologue be pretty much the purest example of a story woven around a character possible? I can't think of a better one. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "interaction", although a monologue is kinda the character interacting with the reader. Sorta. Still, the character makes that story.

And of course I have some examples of the opposite, because an expert on writing like yourself should be well aware that all allegorical tales are always based on the functionality of characters within the framework of the allegory you're trying to build, thus they are the very definition of weaving characters into the specific story you wish to tell, not the other way around.

But their interactions form the story right? It is formed to the purpose of the author via the vehicle of their interactions. The story is built from their motives and suchlike. Even if it is trying to convey some point. You're mincing words.

rather they all serve as an expression on different reflections of humanity that the author is trying to convey.

To express aspects of humanity they must interact in a way that conveys that aspect, right? Either that or they are very bland aspects of humanity. Mincing, again.

Maybe you should write to noted English institutions and tell them they should ignore this book because obviously it doesn't follow the proper rules.

Would I need to deal with more pompous psuedo intellectuals? Because I'm allergic.

Other allegorical tales, right down to Coelho's Alchemist, all follow the basic same storytelling technique of weaving characters around storylines. I could probably think of some non-allegorical tales that do the same, but do I really have to?

You have to think of a good storyline conveyed through some manner except character interaction, yes. Come on, I'm sure you can do it. Someothing philosophical about some guy being melancholy on a hill or something, the kind of thing that would make a great game.



It is not unreasonable at all to expect there to be plenty of diplomatic options for that character. I didn't encounter any though, just fighting.

I posted my character at level 4. Yes, I was defiantely implying that I had done all quests and hadn't found a diplomatic solution in a single one. Great job.

Amusingly, you can resolve vast majority of quests by non-violent means, including the entire main quest. Just like in KotOR, right?

The vast majority of quests must have happened in other parst of the game than I visited then. Because I found lots of boring combat.

One violent outcome is same as other, no difference at all, durrr!

No difference in gameplay style, don't be dense. They are both warrior paths.

I'm beginning to wonder if you "read" anything outside RPGs. R.A. Salvatore doesn't count.

Not as much as I used to, sadly. :(

Character interaction can't be an issue (even if it was some kind of a prerequisite for a great story, which it isn't), because Fallout had plenty of it, and it was generally very well written.

This must have been in that fantastical other part of the game along with all the non-violent quests. Oh, if only I'd had the will to perservere through the bandit ambushes. :(
 

Brother None

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Naked Ninja said:
Ummmm...wouldn't a book thats a monologue be pretty much the purest example of a story woven around a character possible?

Oh yeah, so these are examples of the kind of books you mean, while the method you disagree with doesn't exist?

Look, I took the definition you stated of "weaving characters into stories" rather than vice versa and applied it to books. I'm not really going to run after you if you keep changing the definitions of your own argument, sorry. Because this:

You have to think of a good storyline conveyed through some manner except character interaction, yes.

Is completely asstarded. We were talking about Fallout, you deemed Fallout to use a certain mode of storytelling which you considered wrong, namely that of "weaving character into storylines" rather than "weaving a storyline around characters" or whatever. Now you've changed the definition of this bad mode of writing to exclude all character interaction. But then that definition doesn't apply to Fallout anymore, does it?

Ooops, you just destroyed your own argument. Well fucking done.

afewhours said:
Foucault can be surprisingly lucid

You think so? I thought he was a bit mentally unhinged, myself.

Lesifoere said:
With that said, I'm studying English lit in the UK, so that is probably why.

Well, it's worth reading and really short, so keep an eye out. Interesting ideas integrated into that book.
 

Ratty

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Naked Ninja said:
Yes, I was defiantely implying that I had done all quests and hadn't found a diplomatic solution in a single one. Great job.
I don't know how far into the game you were at level 4, but as early as Shady Sands you can use your Intelligence, Charisma (though less so) and "brainy" skills (Speech and Science) all over the place - for instance, you can convince Ian to join you for free, you can get Tandi to tell you the location of Junktown and Hub (or just Junktown, I don't rightly recall anymore), you can get XP by talking to the farmer about agriculture... The main sidequest (radscorpions) can be solved without violence as well through some ingenuity (blow up the cave entrance), though you don't get a chance to use your diplomatic skills. Likewise, the main sidequest in Junktown (Gizmo) can be solved in a non-violent fashion if you accept Kilian's offer and manage to spy on Gizmo without messing up... This is all within the first hour or two of the game, and you actually get *more* opportunities for non-violent approach later on (yes, Fallout isn't one of those CRPGs that start out great but devolve into dull hackfests later on). My point still stands: you are either a liar or an utterly incompetent Fallout player.

No difference in gameplay style, don't be dense. They are both warrior paths.
So what? It's a warrior quest.

This must have been in that fantastical other part of the game along with all the non-violent quests. Oh, if only I'd had the will to perservere through the bandit ambushes.
Are you stupid? I cited two perfect examples. They are by no means the only ones. Other interesting characters relevant to the plot are Harold the mutant, Set the ghoul (There better be a *killer* reason for you posting in my shadow.), Morpheus the manipulative cult leader... Hell, by the sound of it, you haven't even touched the main plot yet, or any of the major sidequests, instead opting to goof around the world map, fly headfirst into raider ambushes and then wonder why the game doesn't feature more character interaction or more opportunities to use your non-combat skills. If my first Fallout playthrough was as bumbling and perfunctory as yours, I'd probably have a low opinion of the game as well.
 

Gnidrologist

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This thread is epic:Naked Ninja owned by Glittering Gems of Hatered from NMA.
Would be nice nice title for a b-movie.

But seriously, NN. Stop. Have some dignity and admit you were deuchebag arguing for the argument's sake. It's even worse than lighthearted dumbfuckery trolling by Adnawhatever.
 

Murk

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From what I can tell, this arguement went from "I played Fallout and I don't think it's as open as everyone claims - my experience, though a first attempt, resulted me to believe that combat is a very persistent thing regardless of the type of character you play - unless you know what's around every corner. There's no reason to call BG crap and Fallout gold for that reason of "it has too much combat" alone."

all the way to

"I am a literature major, I know more than you."

and we're already at the twisting of words' and setting up of strawmen.
 

Ratty

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Mikayel said:
From what I can tell, this arguement went from "I played Fallout and I don't think it's as open as everyone claims - my experience, though a first attempt, resulted me to believe that combat is a very persistent thing regardless of the type of character you play - unless you know what's around every corner. There's no reason to call BG crap and Fallout gold for that reason of "it has too much combat" alone."
Amusingly enough, even his original argument was a transparent strawman (as nobody claimed that BG was crap because it had lots of combat, but because combat fucking blew) he probably set up in order to have an excuse for slinging mud at Interplay/Troika, because apparently he is unable to come to terms with the fact that there are people out there who prefer them over his precious BioWare.
 

Binary

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Mikayel said:
From what I can tell, this arguement went from "I played Fallout and I don't think it's as open as everyone claims - my experience, though a first attempt, resulted me to believe that combat is a very persistent thing regardless of the type of character you play - unless you know what's around every corner. There's no reason to call BG crap and Fallout gold for that reason of "it has too much combat" alone."

all the way to

"I am a literature major, I know more than you."

and we're already at the twisting of words' and setting up of strawmen.

Nah. You should have noticed that a good quantity of the Codex topics start somewhere else and ends up with fanboys like Ratty, mostly clueless about RPGs in general, transforming it into something like:

"[Fallout|PST|Arcanum] is the best RPG ever, you $insult 1, $insult_2, and $insult_3"

This occurs at least once a month, so they're easy to spot.
 

Gnidrologist

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Maybe so, but it's better to have insults along well backed up arguments, than have insults without any coherent argumentation at all.
Of coourse, it's better to have no insults, because as we all know, internets is sirous business.
 

Raapys

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This thread needs more prejudice. Or not.

At the end, none of these discussions over specific parts of the game(s) matter, because what it boils down to is simply how much fun you are having playing the game.
 

Binary

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Gnidrologist said:
Maybe so, but it's better to have insults along well backed up arguments, than have insults without any coherent argumentation at all.
Of coourse, it's better to have no insults, because as we all know, internets is sirous business.

I've seen quite a nice share of incoherent arguments in this topic. I think the topic loses its point when I read barbaric comments like:

elander_ said:
No game gives you the feeling of a good pnp experience like Falllout does.
 

Gnidrologist

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Binary said:
Gnidrologist said:
Maybe so, but it's better to have insults along well backed up arguments, than have insults without any coherent argumentation at all.
Of coourse, it's better to have no insults, because as we all know, internets is sirous business.

I've seen quite a nice share of incoherent arguments in this topic. I think the topic loses its point when I read barbaric comments like:

elander_ said:
No game gives you the feeling of a good pnp experience like Falllout does.
Why is it barbaric? Having not played one, maybe i was believing the wrong reasons for pnp rpgs to be fun, but from what i've heard on these and some other sources, it boils down to having vast range of options in how to shape your character and how to make your own story in highly interactive world. Which is what Fallout rpgs does most splendid.
Am i wrong?
 

Brother None

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Binary said:
Nah. You should have noticed that a good quantity of the Codex topics start somewhere else and ends up with fanboys like Ratty, mostly clueless about RPGs in general, transforming it into something like:

"[Fallout|PST|Arcanum] is the best RPG ever, you $insult 1, $insult_2, and $insult_3"

This occurs at least once a month, so they're easy to spot.

Good thing you're not arbitrarily dismissing someone's opinion without even considering the strength of his arguments. Is it cold up there, on your throne of smug superiority?
 

Raapys

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THe problem is that almost all arguments used here are highly subjective, and thus are not even valid unless the reader is also of the same opinion.

It's sort of like saying Red is a nicer/cooler/better color than Blue. You can reason and argument for it all you want, but I doubt you're going to get someone to change their favorite color even if you're one hell of a smooth talker.
 

Ratty

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Binary said:
Nah. You should have noticed that a good quantity of the Codex topics start somewhere else and ends up with fanboys like Ratty, mostly clueless about RPGs in general, transforming it into something like:

"[Fallout|PST|Arcanum] is the best RPG ever, you $insult 1, $insult_2, and $insult_3"

This occurs at least once a month, so they're easy to spot.
That explains why you are using your obviously unrivaled grasp of CRPG design and flawless rhetoric skills to obliterate the weak arguments offered by clueless fanboys like myself, rather than make a broad assertion argumented only with a blatant ad hominem... which also happens to be the very fallacy you accuse *me* of resorting to! Hello, kettle, you are black!

What is amiss, Binary? Why shy away from demonstrating your unquestionable superiority? Especially after you did so well in that PS:T debate, completely outwitting me with your expert use of ad verecundiam fallacy. Truly, how does a mere man - or rat - argue with reasoning as sound and superior as "PS:T sucks because I say so, and I played Temple of Apshai on Commodore in 1980!".
 

Murk

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Ratty said:
Amusingly enough, even his original argument was a transparent strawman (as nobody claimed that BG was crap because it had lots of combat, but because combat fucking blew) he probably set up in order to have an excuse for slinging mud at Interplay/Troika, because apparently he is unable to come to terms with the fact that there are people out there who prefer them over his precious BioWare.

See, for the most part I agree with Naked Ninja without bothering to get into defending either side in the arguement 'cuz... well, I'm diggin' this. The nerd-rage, I'm feelin' it. It's stylin'.

I usually just pick out minor wtfs if anything to respond to.

All that aside, I seriously hope to find some more of this shit going down. I used to take great pride in dragging random douches through mud on the formerly non-sucktacious megadeth forums.
 

Murk

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Binary said:
Nah. You should have noticed that a good quantity of the Codex topics start somewhere else and ends up with fanboys like Ratty, mostly clueless about RPGs in general, transforming it into something like:

"[Fallout|PST|Arcanum] is the best RPG ever, you $insult 1, $insult_2, and $insult_3"

This occurs at least once a month, so they're easy to spot.

I think I'm gonna be one of those cats as those are basically my three favourite cRPGs.

so eat it, you cock juggling thunder cunt.
 

Nameless0ne

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Hory said:
Andhaira said:
IMO the 90's can be constituted as the golden era of crpg's. We had gems like RoA series, lands of lore,ultima 7,elder scrolls, wizardry 7 etc games.
I'd take the end of the 90's and the beginning of the 00's over the whole of the 90's any day. That's when the best of the best came.
Baldurs Gate 2 was in my opinion, a capstone to that era. It didn't do anything truly unique per se, but it was a VERy polished and slick game that brought together everything good of all the rpg's before into an amazing package. (fantastic grafics, amazing music, etc)
BG2 is miles ahead of anything pre-Fallout, and I'm not talking about graphics or music.

I'd say the best era started with Fallout and ended with the death of Troika.

Oh yes! I agree with this. death of troika :(
 

Binary

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Gnidrologist said:
Why is it barbaric? Having not played one, maybe i was believing the wrong reasons for pnp rpgs to be fun, but from what i've heard on these and some other sources, it boils down to having vast range of options in how to shape your character and how to make your own story in highly interactive world. Which is what Fallout rpgs does most splendid.
Am i wrong?

You are. Many games did this before Fallout. Darklands is a prime example which is so much closer to a real pnp RPG that it isn't even funny.

Fallout 1/2s story is not really about "making your own story". Sure you have c&c like quite a few predecessors. The game itself ends in the same way - you just get a different vignette.

Hats off to Fallout for its merits, much respect to all that have it as their favorite cRPG ever - but saying it's "the best X|Y|Z ever" requires that you know them all to compare.

Brother None said:
Good thing you're not arbitrarily dismissing someone's opinion without even considering the strength of his arguments. Is it cold up there, on your throne of smug superiority?

I'm all up for strength of arguments, not for strength of insults.

Raapys said:
THe problem is that almost all arguments used here are highly subjective, and thus are not even valid unless the reader is also of the same opinion.

I can't argue with anyone's opinions - you are correct, to each his own. What I said was, when the discussion comes to nonsense comments like "No game gives you the feeling of a good pnp experience like Falllout does." the discussion itself becomes, for me, pointless.
 

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