Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 2 is vastly overrated

[Butter]

BG 1 is one of the few RPGs that doesn't feel like it's revolving around you. The mundanity, the wilderness, the aimlessness are indeed weird, but it does reinforce that the world is not your oyster. Baldur's Gate and The Sword Coast know nothing of you and don't care to. It's on you to find out who killed Gorion, it's on you to find the means to do that and it's on you to stay alive doing it.

It is very much an old achool, low-level campaign, and I really respect that.

Unfortunately, it's also really boring for very long stretches, the enemies are really boring throughout and I find the low-level nature of the game outstays its welcome a bit too long.

BG 2 is the inverse. The world is absolutely your oyster, everything you do is deliberate, dark forces are at play and they're at play over you. That impending responsibility only heightens the deeper you go. It's fun, but does miss a bit of the DnD "goons on an adventure for swag" charm that BG 1 provides.

It's why I mostly prefer Icewind Dale. That game is tailored as a DnD dungeon crawl. You are goons on an adventure.

This is why Pool of Radiance is > all of the above.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

I have a bizarre and mercurial relationship with BG 1 and 2. I consciously prefer BG2 but for some reason I've only ever beaten BG 2 once. I've beaten BG 1 four times times and Icewind Dale six times.

BG 1 is one of the few RPGs that doesn't feel like it's revolving around you. The mundanity, the wilderness, the aimlessness are indeed weird, but it does reinforce that the world is not your oyster. Baldur's Gate and The Sword Coast know nothing of you and don't care to. It's on you to find out who killed Gorion, it's on you to find the means to do that and it's on you to stay alive doing it.

It is very much an old achool, low-level campaign, and I really respect that.

Unfortunately, it's also really boring for very long stretches, the enemies are really boring throughout and I find the low-level nature of the game outstays its welcome a bit too long.

BG 2 is the inverse. The world is absolutely your oyster, everything you do is deliberate, dark forces are at play and they're at play over you. That impending responsibility only heightens the deeper you go. It's fun, but does miss a bit of the DnD "goons on an adventure for swag" charm that BG 1 provides.

It's why I mostly prefer Icewind Dale. That game is tailored as a DnD dungeon crawl. You are goons on an adventure.

Would it be fair to consider BG1 as a type of tutorial for BG2?

I don't think so. The games are very different... I'd say BG itself, the location and its quests, is more of a prelude to 2.

 

[PapaPetro]

I don't think so. The games are very different... I'd say BG itself, the location and its quests, is more of a prelude to 2.

Let me rephrase then, does playing BG1 first enhance the BG2 experience (understanding AD&D mechanics, RtwP combat, game lore/history, plot continuity, aesthetics, narrative, etc.)?

I'm not sure if this applies if you cold opened with BG2 and then played BG1. For younger people/late coomers, I imagine they probably played BG2 first and then we're not impressed by BG1 in comparison.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

I don't think so. The games are very different... I'd say BG itself, the location and its quests, is more of a prelude to 2.

Let me rephrase then, does playing BG1 first enhance the BG2 experience (understanding AD&D mechanics, RtwP combat, game lore/history, plot continuity, aesthetics, narrative, etc.)?

I'm not sure if this applies if you cold opened with BG2 and then played BG1. For younger people/late coomers, I imagine they probably played BG2 first and then we're not plussed by BG1 in comparison.

Mechanics, most likely. You already understand the game and get things like monsters not being affected by a +n type weapon, and needing more.
Same with rtwp.
Lore and history... probably not. Continuity might be worse, since there is none between the games even if you import a save.
Aesthetics are different too. Narrative is as well.

 

[Crispy]

If you really want the entire (EE) experience, then play BG1 with Unfinished Business and Stratagems installed, then import that party in to Siege of Dragonspear, followed up by BG2/ToB.

By then you'll be so sick of the whole franchise you'll probably give up on computer roleplaying games for at least ten years.

 

[PapaPetro]

This is why Pool of Radiance is > all of the above.

I know people love the Gold Box games, but the UI was rough/clunky even for its time and I've never been a fan of grid based map/overworld blobbing (Thank God for MM6-8!). I get that is a throwback to mapping on graphing paper but spinners/teleporters are dumb & annoying & predictable & all to frequent "traps". I liked the tactical combat screen/mechanics though since that was simulated well and you got to see a variety of monster models in an otherwise pretty much Zork-like graphic adventure game with limited still art.

 

[Crispy]

Oh for fuck's sake why didn't I first look in the far NW corner of the mines area and find that Wand of Frost sitting in the crook of a tree?

Oh well, taking out the sorcerer doggy boy with Bless, Curse, Magic Missiles, then good old-fashioned melee felt good. Tough little son of a bitch (literally).

Edit: I'll continue posting occasional play-by-play of the highlights of my BGEE + Stratagems run ITT until someone tells me to STFU.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

are you using the EE companions?

 

[Crispy]

Uh... maybe?

 

[octavius]

This is why Pool of Radiance is > all of the above.

I know people love the Gold Box games, but the UI was rough/clunky even for its time and I've never been a fan of grid based map/overworld blobbing (Thank God for MM6-8!). I get that is a throwback to mapping on graphing paper but spinners/teleporters are dumb & annoying & predictable & all to frequent "traps". I liked the tactical combat screen/mechanics though since that was simulated well and you got to see a variety of monster models in an otherwise pretty much Zork-like graphic adventure game with limited still art.

There's no spinners in the GB games, and unmarked Teleporters are quite rare.

As for the combat, the AI is inferior and unmoddable, and the spell selection severely limited, and of the limited selection too many are of no practical use.

 

[PapaPetro]

This is why Pool of Radiance is > all of the above.

I know people love the Gold Box games, but the UI was rough/clunky even for its time and I've never been a fan of grid based map/overworld blobbing (Thank God for MM6-8!). I get that is a throwback to mapping on graphing paper but spinners/teleporters are dumb & annoying & predictable & all to frequent "traps". I liked the tactical combat screen/mechanics though since that was simulated well and you got to see a variety of monster models in an otherwise pretty much Zork-like graphic adventure game with limited still art.

There's no spinners in the GB games, and unmarked Teleporters are quite rare.

As for the combat, the AI is inferior and unmoddable, and the spell selection severely limited, and of the limited selection too many are of no practical use.

My bad then, I could've sworn I encountered spinners but I could be confusing it with others in the genre.
Don't get me wrong, I loved playing Pool or Radiance and the other Gold Boxes. Would love it even more to see someone do a proper remake/mods someday and do it justice; the story was fun with Tyranthraxus.

Ruins of Myth Drannor (2001) was pure buttcheeks though with the crappy Diablo-fication of it.

 

[octavius]

My bad then, I could've sworn I encountered spinners but I could be confusing it with others in the genre.

Well, it's been a long time since I played the GB games, so it's possible my memory is faulty. There may have been some in Dark Queen of Krynn, which is the GB game that has level design closest to blobbers.
But the GB games never felt like blobbers to me, with no real mapping challenges.

 

[Crispy]

There was absolutely nothing Diablo-like about RoMD unless you count the three-quarter isometric perspective, and even that is quite different between the two.

 

[Crispy]

Mulahey was, surprisingly, a bit of a pushover, even though I still fell for his begging (I honestly remember very little about my original playthrough back in... 1998?).

An extremely well-placed Entangle cast by Jaheira really helped a lot to secure our flanks and the above-mentioned Wand of Frost made short work of Mulahey's second wind.

 

[PapaPetro]

But the GB games never felt like blobbers to me, with no real mapping challenges.

Maybe it's just an aesthetic thing for me. I hate being stuck moving in a rigid grid for such an open world. I don't mind the grid in say ASCII roguelikes though. Like Legends of Grimrock is unplayable for me, but if it switched to TBC mode in a tactical map, then I could forgive the grid blob overworld/mapping. We all got our strange preferences.
For all I know it could just be that I hate pixelized/gridded cartography?

There was absolutely nothing Diablo-like about RoMD unless you count the three-quarter isometric perspective, and even that is quite different between the two.

Perhaps I'm being too harsh. The loot system left an indelible mark in my memory in the same way I never enjoyed Diablo's randomized loot drop system. That and the similar isometric camera perspective. I dunno maybe I need to give it another shot or something...

Around that time a lot of Diablo-like clones were being cranked out and I never really liked Diablo. I always thought its predecessor, Roguelikes, were superior even with the lack of graphical fidelity (which can be easily "fixed" if you have a good enough imagination: the U Balrog in UMoria is still more impressive in my mind than the movie, and that was from only reading a few line of Monster Memory lore).

 

[Crispy]

I dunno maybe I need to give it another shot or something...

Don't get me wrong: RoMD certainly isn't for everyone. Putting aside its controversial release, the game is both huge, it's very very boring at times, and takes a great deal of committment to complete (I still have yet to myself).

However, patience and persistence can pay off with it, because beneath all its warts it's one of the most honest Forgotten Realms CRPGs ever released IMO.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

BG 1 is one of the few RPGs that doesn't feel like it's revolving around you. The mundanity, the wilderness, the aimlessness are indeed weird, but it does reinforce that the world is not your oyster. Baldur's Gate and The Sword Coast know nothing of you and don't care to. It's on you to find out who killed Gorion, it's on you to find the means to do that and it's on you to stay alive doing it.

What on Faerun are you talking about? You're Gorion's Ward and nobody else is, despite that Imoen exists. Gorion tries to save you, but is thwarted by the BBEG who is out to kill you. You then have assassins throughout the critical path, even off the beaten path, who are out to kill you. The game is littered with correspondence about the trouble you are causing. You then discover that you are the special one, you get framed and become persona non-grata at Baldur's gate, while needing to thwart the plot before it gets to you first. There is nothing wrong with this. BG2 isn't that different actually.

BG2 opens with you being the special one, but that largely doesn't matter until you get the spellhold. Instead of assassins trying to repeatedly kill you, you have gangs occasionally trying to enlist you. After Irenicus steals your soul, he effectively discards you and goes about his business. Both games have NPCs that will recognize you as an adventurer and ask for help. With the exception of Jaheria's Harper questline, or an offhanded mention by Firkraag, Amn very much does it own thing. The impression that BG1 is more open is simply because the BG1 areas themselves are more aimless. Many quests in BG2 grand enough to practically be their own module. Those areas are purposed to their quest, rather than being wilderness areas between and adjacent to your destinations.

 

[Hagashager]

BG 1 is one of the few RPGs that doesn't feel like it's revolving around you. The mundanity, the wilderness, the aimlessness are indeed weird, but it does reinforce that the world is not your oyster. Baldur's Gate and The Sword Coast know nothing of you and don't care to. It's on you to find out who killed Gorion, it's on you to find the means to do that and it's on you to stay alive doing it.

What on Faerun are you talking about? You're Gorion's Ward and nobody else is, despite that Imoen exists. Gorion tries to save you, but is thwarted by the BBEG who is out to kill you. You then have assassins throughout the critical path, even off the beaten path, who are out to kill you. The game is littered with correspondence about the trouble you are causing. You then discover that you are the special one, you get framed and become persona non-grata at Baldur's gate, while needing to thwart the plot before it gets to you first. There is nothing wrong with this. BG2 isn't that different actually.

BG2 opens with you being the special one, but that largely doesn't matter until you get the spellhold. Instead of assassins trying to repeatedly kill you, you have gangs occasionally trying to enlist you. After Irenicus steals your soul, he effectively discards you and goes about his business. Both games have NPCs that will recognize you as an adventurer and ask for help. With the exception of Jaheria's Harper questline, or an offhanded mention by Firkraag, Amn very much does it own thing. The impression that BG1 is more open is simply because the BG1 areas themselves are more aimless. Many quests in BG2 grand enough to practically be their own module. Those areas are purposed to their quest, rather than being wilderness areas between and adjacent to your destinations.

I concede your point on Imoen, revolving around Gorion, you are important where Imoen, another Bhaalspawn, is just totally side-lined.

That said: having assassins after you is not unique on the Sword Coast, nor is being an Adventurer. Professional Adventurer is a literal career path that anyone and everyone takes. NPCs knowing you're an adventurer doesn't make you special. It's like going up to someone and saying you're studying STEM, it's neat and folks might respect you a little more, but you're not Nikola Tesla. There's a thousand other adventurers who likely have assassins and brigands and angry exes after them, what makes *you* so special?

It's not until the later point of the game, really around returning to Candlekeep, that you being a Bhaalspawn starts getting taken seriously. Even then, it's serious in the same way that any DnD kerfuffle starts getting taken seriously by the local population, because it's affecting the city's bottom line- literally, as in Sarevok prchestrating a trade war and your PC is the only one actively trying to stop it.

BG 2 takes the Bhaalspawn's fate more seriously than BG 1. It is a central point of your character's personal quest and becomes a distinctly known issue the further you get in BG2, especially by Throne of Bhasl.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

You moved goalposts Hagashager . You said you like how BG1 was its own world that didn't revolve around the player, when it does in more ways than BG2. It's not until ToB where people recognize and treat you as someone unique. That BG2 is crafted to the player while BG1 is freeform is a common opinion, and I get it. I think it's just a misunderstanding. BG2's areas are purposeful and have involved quests that the PC has high involvement in. It's not like BG1 where there is a random Xvart village to pillage, or saving some random kid from worgs on the coast. The scope of involvement of BG2's quest just give the impression it's about you, because you become the major agent of change rather than a passerby dealing with brief random minor events.

 

[Hagashager]

You moved goalposts Hagashager . You said you like how BG1 was its own world that didn't revolve around the player, when it does in more ways than BG2. It's not until ToB where people recognize and treat you as someone unique. That BG2 is crafted to the player while BG1 is freeform is a common opinion, and I get it. I think it's just a misunderstanding. BG2's areas are purposeful and have involved quests that the PC has high involvement in. It's not like BG1 where there is a random Xvart village to pillage, or saving some random kid from worgs on the coast. The scope of involvement of BG2's quest just give the impression it's about you, because you become the major agent of change rather than a passerby dealing with brief random minor events.

I fail to see how I moved the goalpost. It looks more like we have a difference of opinion on what constitutes "the world revolving around you."

If you consider the events that are attached to the PC in BG 1 as an example of the world itself actively bending its setting to the player's benefit, then sure, you're right. BG 1 is tailored for the player.

Knowing what I do of Forgotten Realms lore, much of the design just looks like typical Forgotten Realms antics. Having assassins target you, a spooky dude in black armor killing your parent, an urban conspiracy to topple a city-state, these are in-universe facts of life, they're in the job description of an Adventurer (Proper Noun). Your character is a generic adventurer in BG 1, the world reacts to you like it does any adventurer in the setting.

The meta is part of the game's charm

 

[Nifft Batuff]

BG1 and BG2 are both overrated.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

A game doesn't need a first-person perspective to offer some good exploration, just look at games like Ultima IV, V and VI, Quest for Glory, Divine Divinity, Expeditions: Conquistador, Underrail, and even some Japanese games like the original Legend of Zelda.

Exploration in Baldur's Gate is garbage, and always has been.

 

[Gromoer]

It becomes tiresome to explain this all over again. First BG was a labour of love and ultimate adventure. Second one is a content pack.

 

[NecroLord]

BG1 and BG2 are both overrated.

Popularity and renown are synonymous with being overrated now?

 

[Volourn]

Bg series is awesome. If you don't like it, you are retart. They are underrated.