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ERYFKRAD

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Would you mind explaining why we are comparing a challenge rating 5 of PF to a cr 6 of 5E? How do you even equate the same?
Probably makes more sense to compare same class in both systems.
 

Cryomancer

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Would you mind explaining why we are comparing a challenge rating 5 of PF to a cr 6 of 5E? How do you even equate the same?

I also mentioned Medusas which are higher CR in 5E.

same class in both systems.

No, because hp inflation affects enemeis way more than players.

which is why it will die before ever getting a turn if you’re insane enough to play by RAW

And in 5E, she can soak multiple heavy cannon shots as if it is nothing.

System which makes men in dresses butthurt can't be THAT bad.

Robes aren't dresses and in urban fantasy you don't see mages in "robes", you see guys like Maximillian Strauss but in therms of ruining magery, nothing is worse than 4E. Also, mages CAN wear armor in many settings. The reason that most of then don't wear is that they don't need.

Tell us what is good about it and why it is better than older editions?

Any brainlet can play.
 

Delterius

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wizards should wear comfortable clothing according to their specialization. transmuters for an instance like heavy duty pants and gloves.

this all robes thing is just flanderization and much maligned in the Mage's Unions
 

Grunker

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wizards should wear comfortable clothing according to their specialization. transmuters for an instance like heavy duty pants and gloves.

this all robes thing is just flanderization and much maligned in the Mage's Unions

just like their might score always being low is flanderization right :troll:
 

Delterius

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wizards should wear comfortable clothing according to their specialization. transmuters for an instance like heavy duty pants and gloves.

this all robes thing is just flanderization and much maligned in the Mage's Unions

just like their might score always being low is flanderization right :troll:
au contraire
CRpLqJGWwAAwc8k.jpg


the average wizard in eora
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I also mentioned Medusas which are higher CR in 5E.
Mate, my question here being- how do you know that game makers A have assigned the equal arbitrary power to creature X that warrants a comparison to same creature X from game maker B.

In other words it doesn't matter if your Medusa is of higher CR in one system when compared to a Medusa of another system if you don't know that the makers of both games put the Medusa on the same danger level to the player.

No, because hp inflation affects enemeis way more than players.
Whereas I can get away more reliably with expecting a lvl 20 pathfinder char to be on a similar power level as a lvl 20 dnd char and therefore warrant a comparison.
 

plem

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5E is fantastic you retarded retards.

Tell us what is good about it and why it is better than older editions?

the merit of 5E is that it's the only version of D&D where it's reasonable to expect to play it RAW, because it understands that there doesn't have to be a rule for everything, just enough of a foundation for DMs to make rulings based on. which, really, is how people already played D&D since its inception.

3.5 had, in theory, rules for everything, but no one really ever played it RAW because that'd make each turn take 50 minutes as you'd have to look up rules for anything the players wanted to do other than attack. funnily enough, this makes 3.5 play almost better in CRPGs since you can just have the computer do all the bookkeeping for you. but IRL, it was often just easier and better to eshew the handbook and make rulings up on the spot.
 

deuxhero

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Would you mind explaining why we are comparing a challenge rating 5 of PF to a cr 6 of 5E? How do you even equate the same?
Probably makes more sense to compare same class in both systems.

A CR in both systems means that monster is a fair but 100% possible challenge for a group of 4 Player Characters of that level. Since levels in both go from 1-20, they should be comparable. Since 3E/PF has rules for monster advancement that actually work in small tweaks, we can easily make a PF cyclops CR6.

Since we want to go for the most absurd example in terms of gaining HP, we'll give it a level of Barbarian as that gives an D12 to HD (+6.5 average and +1 HP since it can now take a favored class). Since "Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. " the Cyclops' Constitution (and Strength) will get a +4 boost for an extra 2 HP per HD (+22). Since the Cyclops now has 11 HD it gets an extra feat and, keeping with our desire to give the advanced cyclops as much HP as possible, we pick Toughness (+1 HP per HD, or 11). That's 105.5 HP with the ability to gain another 22 temporary HP from Rage (which can be taken out by various non-damage means like making it tired or fleeing till its rage runs out). That is the absolute max possible increase while still being remotely realistic in design. In reality, advancement will more likely just involve adding a template like Giant (It's even bigger and gets +4 con for 22 more HP) or Fiendish (it has hung around the cursed demon temple too long, +0 HP but some nice defensive abilities like taking less damage from things), or adding a few more HD (two d8, an ability score increase and a feat for +37, and only +25 if it decides to use its ability increase to hit harder rather than take more damage).

To summarize our CR6 Cyclops could have one of the following HP values: 65 (template that doesn't boost con), 77 (giant template), 90 (adding two HD, a bonus to strength and the toughness feat), 102 (two HD+a bonus to con+toughness), 105 (level in barbarian+toughness) or 127 (level in barbarian+toughness during rage). All of these are still an absolute "worst "for HP increase case since its making a meaty monster more meaty. In reality a monster that does things other than smash and/or picks a more interesting feat will have closer to 65 than 138, and most of these advancements will only happen once (a CR7 cyclops will barely have more HP). With a more interesting feat you could instead have a cyclops that teleports (Flickering Step) or can't have its movement impeeded (Wanderer's Fortune) rather than just getting +11/+12 HP.

Edit: This whole thing brings up another issue in 5E: You don't have nearly the options to easily tweak CR. In 3.5/PF you could make a cyclops a CR4 by making it old, diseased, or missing a limb, or bring it up with templates or extra HD. You can't do this in 5E.
 

plem

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HP bloat is a fault of 5E's shit math. Since defense caps at 20, and you reach that cap at level ~4, they had to give powerful monsters some other way of not dying instantly. Problem with that idea is that damage for martials caps around level 6 (when they get to attack twice) so
1: Fights just become a slog since its who can drain the other's pool of massive HP first
2: Since offense can't scale much either, there's little functional reason you can't fight anything in the system by level 8 or so since all they can have is more HP (but not more offense) and a few immunities (which only matter if you focus on that thing) so it's just a question of how much of a slog you're willing to deal with.

it sure does sound like fights would be boring if you're exclusively pitting martial PCs against martial enemies. but even then:

1. the ways powerful monsters don't die instantly are: a) multi-attack; b) spell-like abilities and c) legendary actions and resistances. HP bloat wouldn't even be sufficient for extending their lifespan if not for the previously mentioned items.

2. you're assuming no magic items, which is, obviously, not reality. for defense, non-magical plate and shield give you 20 AC, either one of those can be +n. then you can add +n rings and amulets, then if you can cast shield that's +5, then if you can take the defensive fighting style that's a +1, etc. for offense, plenty of magical weapons add extra dice of damage and some items increase spell damage.

3. Polearm Master, Two Weapon Fighting, Crossbow Expert all give you more than 2 attacks per turn. spells like Haste also give you more attacks, and others like Holy Weapon add extra dice of damage. Hex, Hunter's Mark, Smite and Cantrips all scale with level. hell, Eldritch Blast lets you get 3 attacks without any feats. class features like Sneak Attack and Rage scale with level. Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter allow you to trade to-hit bonus (which scales) for damage.

point is, fights can be lethal for both sides even at high levels. if can really kill anything at level 8, your DM must be terrible at tactics.

Yep. Also, a mage in lv 5 can deal merely 8d6 damage with fireball. At lv 11, 10d6 with freezing sphere. 6 levels obtained and merely +2d6 damage. While a CR 11 mob has multiple times the hp of a CR 5 mob.

if you're using damaging spells as a mage, you're doing it wrong. Wizards in 5E almost always have ways of ending or trivializing encounters with a flick of the wrist. the great thing about is that they have a different win button for each stage of their adventuring career. at low levels, it's Sleep, maybe Hypnotic Pattern and sometimes Web if you want to let your martials play a little. at mid levels, it's Polymorph, Hold Monster and Banish. at high levels, well, at that point you can just hang out in your pocket dimension and let your thralls/golems/undead do the dirty work.
 

deuxhero

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2. you're assuming no magic items, which is, obviously, not reality. for defense, non-magical plate and shield give you 20 AC, either one of those can be +n. then you can add +n rings and amulets, then if you can cast shield that's +5, then if you can take the defensive fighting style that's a +1, etc. for offense, plenty of magical weapons add extra dice of damage and some items increase spell damage.

3. Polearm Master, Two Weapon Fighting, Crossbow Expert all give you more than 2 attacks per turn. spells like Haste also give you more attacks, and others like Holy Weapon add extra dice of damage. Hex, Hunter's Mark, Smite and Cantrips all scale with level. hell, Eldritch Blast lets you get 3 attacks without any feats. class features like Sneak Attack and Rage scale with level. Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter allow you to trade to-hit bonus (which scales) for damage.

point is, fights can be lethal for both sides even at high levels. if can really kill anything at level 8, your DM must be terrible at tactics.

That's actually two more reasons 5E is shit: Magic items and feats are actually optional rules and, officially, not something the system is balanced around.
 

Spectacle

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Would you mind explaining why we are comparing a challenge rating 5 of PF to a cr 6 of 5E? How do you even equate the same?
Probably makes more sense to compare same class in both systems.

A CR in both systems means that monster is a fair but 100% possible challenge for a group of 4 Player Characters of that level.
No it doesn't. In 5e CR X means that if the monster appears in an encounter and the party is below level X, there is a high chance of one or more characters going down even if the players use good tactics.
 

Cryomancer

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l only happen once (a CR7 cyclops will barely have more HP). With a more interesting feat you could instead have a cyclops that teleports (Flickering Step) or can't have its movement impeeded (Wanderer's Fortune) rather than just getting +11/+12 HP.

Yep. Or giving a really large club and armor to cyclops, increasing his AC. A Barbarian rage ability, or something like that. That would be more interesting than just inflating his hit points. But for some people, the cyclops should be able to soak 666 shots from a 24 pound cannon

: You don't have nearly the options to easily tweak CR. In 3.5/PF you could make a cyclops a CR4 by making it old, diseased, or missing a limb, or bring it up with templates or extra HD. You can't do this in 5E.

Exactly. OwlCat did it in Kingmaker. A Jabberwock in P&P is a CR 23 creature with really nasty abilities, in game you happen to fight two at the same time, except that they are "LESSER Jabberwock".

3.5 had, in theory, rules for everything,

No, GURPS has rules for everything. 3.5E doesn't. And even in GURPS the "dm" can improvise checks and everything with no problem. 3d6 system is very flexible.

if you're using damaging spells as a mage, you're doing it wrong. Wizards in 5E almost always have ways of ending or trivializing encounters with a flick of the wrist. the great thing about is that they have a different win button for each stage of their adventuring career. at low levels, it's Sleep, maybe Hypnotic Pattern and sometimes Web if you want to let your martials play a little. at mid levels, it's Polymorph, Hold Monster and Banish. at high levels, well, at that point you can just hang out in your pocket dimension and let your thralls/golems/undead do the dirty work.

Translation. Wizards in 5E are like 4E controllers, only enchantment is viable. Why even have evocation, necromancy, transmutation, conjuration and other schools? Why anyone would ever use cone of cold or cloudkill over hold monster? Those spells where amazing in previous editions.

5E sadly has a lot of 4E BS on it. Spellcasting is closer to the AEDU system with at will cantrips, short rests and so on, wizards casts spells like sorcerers like in 4E, everything has ridiculous high survivability(not only hp, you need to go down and fail 3 saves to die). the awful tier system and etc.
 
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FriendlyMerchant

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if you're using damaging spells as a mage, you're doing it wrong. Wizards in 5E almost always have ways of ending or trivializing encounters with a flick of the wrist. the great thing about is that they have a different win button for each stage of their adventuring career. at low levels, it's Sleep, maybe Hypnotic Pattern and sometimes Web if you want to let your martials play a little. at mid levels, it's Polymorph, Hold Monster and Banish. at high levels, well, at that point you can just hang out in your pocket dimension and let your thralls/golems/undead do the dirty work.

Translation. Wizards in 5E are like 4E controllers, only enchantment is viable. Why even have evocation, necromancy, transmutation, conjuration and other schools? Why anyone would ever use cone of cold or cloudkill over hold monster? Those spells where amazing in previous editions.
Translation of translation. ME WANT PEW-PEW!
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
if you're using damaging spells as a mage, you're doing it wrong. Wizards in 5E almost always have ways of ending or trivializing encounters with a flick of the wrist. the great thing about is that they have a different win button for each stage of their adventuring career. at low levels, it's Sleep, maybe Hypnotic Pattern and sometimes Web if you want to let your martials play a little. at mid levels, it's Polymorph, Hold Monster and Banish. at high levels, well, at that point you can just hang out in your pocket dimension and let your thralls/golems/undead do the dirty work.

Translation. Wizards in 5E are like 4E controllers, only enchantment is viable. Why even have evocation, necromancy, transmutation, conjuration and other schools? Why anyone would ever use cone of cold or cloudkill over hold monster? Those spells where amazing in previous editions.
Translation of translation. ME WANT PEW-PEW!
Damn sure he wants a Leman Russ, not a lasgun.
 

Nano

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Translation. Wizards in 5E are like 4E controllers, only enchantment is viable. Why even have evocation, necromancy, transmutation, conjuration and other schools? Why anyone would ever use cone of cold or cloudkill over hold monster? Those spells where amazing in previous editions.
To be fair, enchantment has always been the best school in D&D.
 

Delterius

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i've been hearing this slop about how 'wizards can't blast anymore' since 1022 when the mystery caliph of hadramut re-wrote the picatrix to forbid quad-wielding of ray spells. and every single time what it really means is '1 character fighting alone - the wizard casting fireball - is weaker than 2 characters working together - the wizard buffing the paladin'.
 

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