Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

not really bloat. pathfinder has offense so frontloaded that even with those insane defense buffs you still one-shot everything

 

[Reinhardt]

not really bloat. pathfinder has offense so frontloaded that even with those insane defense buffs you still one-shot everything

Except it's wisp from Old Sycamore. so it's pitted against lvl 2-3 party.

 

[Grunker]

not really bloat. pathfinder has offense so frontloaded that even with those insane defense buffs you still one-shot everything

Except it's wisp from Old Sycamore. so it's pitted against lvl 2-3 party.

at the time you're supposed to fight it, it keels over just as easily as everything else

but assuming I accept your argument - is that your only example of bloat? I'm thinking not, so my argument still stands

kingmaker has insane defense buffs but even that doesn't help fight the frontloaded offense so I just find bloat a weird word for it

 

[mediocrepoet]

not really bloat. pathfinder has offense so frontloaded that even with those insane defense buffs you still one-shot everything

Except it's wisp from Old Sycamore.

Viscount Smoulderburn is pretty crazy with the shield and everything, but you can trivialize it with spells like resist/protection from electricity, see invisibility, etc. It's also an optional fight and you can put it off into at least Chapter 2 if you just want to curb stomp it.

 

[Reinhardt]

not really bloat. pathfinder has offense so frontloaded that even with those insane defense buffs you still one-shot everything

Except it's wisp from Old Sycamore. so it's pitted against lvl 2-3 party.

at the time you're supposed to fight it, it keels over just as easily as everything else

So is BG3 "spider" from Victor's example, no?

 

[mediocrepoet]

not really bloat. pathfinder has offense so frontloaded that even with those insane defense buffs you still one-shot everything

Except it's wisp from Old Sycamore. so it's pitted against lvl 2-3 party.

at the time you're supposed to fight it, it keels over just as easily as everything else

So is BG3 "spider" from Victor's example, no?

Imagine reading a Victor post and taking it seriously.

 

[Bloodeyes]

not really bloat. pathfinder has offense so frontloaded that even with those insane defense buffs you still one-shot everything

Except it's wisp from Old Sycamore. so it's pitted against lvl 2-3 party.

You are handed the tools to deal with him. If you don't know how to use them you die the first time. The bard and cleric companions can cast remove fear. The magus can use spell combat to true strike + attack in the same round. First time I fought him I died to him. Second time I killed him at level 5. If you have resist energy communal and cast remove fear each round he really can't do anything to you.

 

[Grunker]

not really bloat. pathfinder has offense so frontloaded that even with those insane defense buffs you still one-shot everything

Except it's wisp from Old Sycamore. so it's pitted against lvl 2-3 party.

at the time you're supposed to fight it, it keels over just as easily as everything else

So is BG3 "spider" from Victor's example, no?

don't play early access

hell I don't play games until like a year after release

 

[Reinhardt]

We are talking about "bloat", not about can you beat him or not.

 

[mediocrepoet]

We are talking about "bloat", not about can you beat him or not.

Bloat generally implies (imo) that things are spongy and take excessive time to whittle down or RNG through their insane stats/hp. If everything is "bloated" compared to <insert whatever random benchmark you care to such as tabletop stats> such that it remains relatively proportional, then is it really "bloat" in any relevant sense or just that the game has a differing progression or scale than your benchmark?

 

[Bloodeyes]

Well I don't think he's bloated. Sure it takes a few rounds to kill him at low level but he's a pretty cherry picked example and is supposed to be a tough encounter. Most every enemy in Pathfinder Kingmaker dies in one or two rounds (when attacked by 1 character) at most so I don't think their stats are bloated at all. The only other enemies I can think of that took me more than one round were Crag Linnorn at level 8 and some greater enraged owlbears at level 7. But I was too low level for those encounters. At later levels they die just as quick as anything else.

 

[Reinhardt]

Reminder, that this thing has hp of Firkraag while having half of his CR. And according to Victor having hp of Firkraag if you are not Firkraag is bloat.

Firkraag had 184 hp. In PnP Great Wyrm Red Dragons have 23 HD (Base 15+8, which is 23d8 = 104 avg hp)

Firkraag is not a "common" dragon, he is a named legendary dragon. He has a char level of 23.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Random spider in a cave in BG3 = 144 hp.

you mean this thing?
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Phase+Spider+Matriarch
the Phase Spider Matriarch? It has 125 HP according to the wiki.
And uhmmm

It's from official third party 5E material released under the OGL, it predates BG3.

 

[Saravan]

something tells me the devs never wanted to make a realtime game but were forced to by the publisher

I believe that Swen said it in a CDC(not sure)

other D&D edition?

Magic missile is merely d4+1 damage / missile. At low levels(1~6), 3*d4+1 isn't enough to kill any serious threat. In fact, at this levels, unless you are rest scumming, you as a magic user will use more your slingshot, crossbow or whatever.

magic missile is one of the best damaging spells for a mage in BG2

It isn't. And come on, in BG2 you can fight really powerful enemies where magic missile does no damage. You are far more useful using charm person, armor, grease, sleep, and so on over any damaging spell. And for damaging spells, Burning Hands is way better.

Both KM and WotR have Zimbabwe levels of inflation in all aspects, HP

Wrong.

• Zombie Cyclops in Kingmaker = 78 HP( https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Zombie_Cyclops ) for a lv 12 undead.
• Random spider in a cave in BG3 = 144 hp.

The unique enemy which really bloated hp is Spawn of Rovagug. And it makes sense. He is the "child" of the God of destruction.

wotrannies will complain about "HP bloat" then go back to playing this

A lot of people criticized the bloat of PF:WoTR. Even I who liked the game criticized it and saw multiple people abandoning the game in chapter 4 in WoTR thread. So, no, bloat is not OK in WoTR.

And as I've said, I wish for a less extreme epic AP next to be adapted. I mean, Kingmaker was already very "epic". You become a king, fight a lich and his undead cyclops army in mid of the game and can even destroy a demigod living sun. WoTR picked this already high level adventure and doubled it. So you can even reach lv 40 in the game.

is counting on some CHARITY in the plane of absolute chaos and EVIL

Probably because midnight isles are a place who received lots and lots of outsiders.

Why do you always do that? That thing where you quote someone and go "Wroooong" like some weird Trump impersonation.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It's from official third party 5E material released under the OGL, it predates BG3.

ah, found they have a wiki for their OGL material
http://kpogl.wikidot.com/monster:phase-spider-matriarch
The book it's in has a big ol' "5E" graphic on the front of it, I'd imagine they'd have trouble using that if it wasn't a licensed product. And indeed, they do seem to have produced some higher profile licensed works
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold_Press

In 2014, Wizards of the Coast commissioned Kobold Press to create the two adventures for the initial Tyranny of Dragons storyline for Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition, Hoard of the Dragon Queen (2014) and The Rise of Tiamat (2014).[2][3][4]

It's really hard to accuse Larian of not being true to the ruleset. Even a lot of their custom stuff got toned down a ton in patches, and they responded to people complaining about HP bloat by being more true to the source material.

 

[underground nymph]

something tells me the devs never wanted to make a realtime game but were forced to by the publisher

I believe that Swen said it in a CDC(not sure)

other D&D edition?

Magic missile is merely d4+1 damage / missile. At low levels(1~6), 3*d4+1 isn't enough to kill any serious threat. In fact, at this levels, unless you are rest scumming, you as a magic user will use more your slingshot, crossbow or whatever.

magic missile is one of the best damaging spells for a mage in BG2

It isn't. And come on, in BG2 you can fight really powerful enemies where magic missile does no damage. You are far more useful using charm person, armor, grease, sleep, and so on over any damaging spell. And for damaging spells, Burning Hands is way better.

Both KM and WotR have Zimbabwe levels of inflation in all aspects, HP

Wrong.

• Zombie Cyclops in Kingmaker = 78 HP( https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Zombie_Cyclops ) for a lv 12 undead.
• Random spider in a cave in BG3 = 144 hp.

The unique enemy which really bloated hp is Spawn of Rovagug. And it makes sense. He is the "child" of the God of destruction.

wotrannies will complain about "HP bloat" then go back to playing this

A lot of people criticized the bloat of PF:WoTR. Even I who liked the game criticized it and saw multiple people abandoning the game in chapter 4 in WoTR thread. So, no, bloat is not OK in WoTR.

And as I've said, I wish for a less extreme epic AP next to be adapted. I mean, Kingmaker was already very "epic". You become a king, fight a lich and his undead cyclops army in mid of the game and can even destroy a demigod living sun. WoTR picked this already high level adventure and doubled it. So you can even reach lv 40 in the game.

is counting on some CHARITY in the plane of absolute chaos and EVIL

Probably because midnight isles are a place who received lots and lots of outsiders.

Why do you always do that? That thing where you quote someone and go "Wroooong" like some weird Trump impersonation.

It’s easier bullshitting this way.

 

[deuxhero]

HP bloat is a fault of 5E's shit math. Since defense caps at 20, and you reach that cap at level ~4, they had to give powerful monsters some other way of not dying instantly. Problem with that idea is that damage for martials caps around level 6 (when they get to attack twice) so
1: Fights just become a slog since its who can drain the other's pool of massive HP first
2: Since offense can't scale much either, there's little functional reason you can't fight anything in the system by level 8 or so since all they can have is more HP (but not more offense) and a few immunities (which only matter if you focus on that thing) so it's just a question of how much of a slog you're willing to deal with.

 

[Cryomancer]

I : "3.5E and PF1e has a problem with number inflation, I prefer the 2E numbers but in the 5E and BG3 the problem is even worse"
Larian Cultists : "So, you are saying that there are no bloat in WoTR???"

I never said that.

------------------

HP bloat is a fault of 5E's shit math. Since defense caps at 20, and you reach that cap at level ~4, they had to give powerful monsters some other way of not dying instantly. Problem with that idea is that damage for martials caps around level 6 (when they get to attack twice) so
1: Fights just become a slog since its who can drain the other's pool of massive HP first
2: Since offense can't scale much either, there's little functional reason you can't fight anything in the system by level 8 or so since all they can have is more HP (but not more offense) and a few immunities (which only matter if you focus on that thing) so it's just a question of how much of a slog you're willing to deal with.

Yep. Also, a mage in lv 5 can deal merely 8d6 damage with fireball. At lv 11, 10d6 with freezing sphere. 6 levels obtained and merely +2d6 damage. While a CR 11 mob has multiple times the hp of a CR 5 mob.

Is the same problem of Oblivion.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

3.5e(and especially pathfinder) have stat inflation on a completely different level.

 

[Grunker]

I : "3.5E and PF1e has a problem with number inflation, I prefer the 2E numbers but in the 5E and BG3 the problem is even worse"

Wait, are you saying 5E numerical increments get higher than 3.5E and PF? Nigga you high

5E has bounded accuracy but even without that a beginner making a 3.5E character would have a good chance of making a character with have higher numbers on his level 10 character than a 5E veteran would on his.

Whatever blunt you're smoking to do your math, I want in on that good shit mate

 

[deuxhero]

Yes, 5E does. 3.5 and PF have mechanisms for making monsters not go splat besides giving them more HP, and tend to use them. 5E can only give monsters more HP.

 

[Grunker]

Yes, 5E does. 3.5 and PF have mechanisms for making monsters go splat besides giving them more HP, and tend to use them. 5E can only give monsters more HP.

I agree if you're talking about HP bloat i.e. "stuff takes longer to kill", or, well, I think it's hilarious to call 5E bloat, what's really going on is that in 3.5 and Pathfinder everything dies during round 1.

But that's not the point. Victor is making it sound like he thinks 5E has higher numbers straight up, that's what my reaction is about. If he thinks it's about "HP bloat" why use the term "number inflation"?

 

[Cryomancer]

. 5E has bounded accuracy

Yep. So a lv 20 fighter who reached the peak human power is merely a bit(like 30%) more likely to hit a enemy compared to a lv 1 fighter who got the basic training yesterday.

I said about HIT POINTS inflation. Not about stats in general. 20+ attribute in a 3.5E char are more common than 18 in 2E chars. 18 is the peak human attribute in 2E. 25 is godlike literally.

have stat inflation

Yep. But I was talking about HP.

Yes, 5E does. 3.5 and PF have mechanisms for making monsters go splat besides giving them more HP, and tend to use them. 5E can only give monsters more HP.

Which ruins the game. Monsters lost a lot of really nasty abilities, aberrations are no longer threatening but they can soak a lot of hits...

what's really going on is that in 3.5 and Pathfinder everything dies during round 1.

Only trash mobs.

he thinks 5E has higher numbers straight up

Higher HIT POINT values.

Cyclops in Pathfinder : 65 hp https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants/cyclops/
Cyclops in 5E : 138 hp https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/cyclops

 

[Grunker]

I said about HIT POINTS inflation.

"3.5E and PF1e has a problem with number inflation, I prefer the 2E numbers but in the 5E and BG3 the problem is even worse"

You wrote number inflation, hence my post.

Though again, to my mind, it's odd to call it bloat. In my campaigns fights generally last between 4-7 rounds on average, that doesn't seem very long to me. That is bloated compared to 3.5 or PF's single round if you don't heavily limit even core offensive abilities, but to call it bloat still seems missing the point.

In essence, it's less about 5E increasing the HP and more about them decreasing offensive power. The numbers simply aren't skewered so irrevocably towards offense and against defense.

Anyway, at least there's some sort of argument there as opposed to claiming 5E has higher numbers in general. Because that would be truly retarded.

 

[deuxhero]

3E/PF's numbers on both sides increase all values at roughly the same rate. 5E has this bullshit.

Diamonds are PC damage, line is monster HP.