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Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Self-Ejected

underground nymph

I care not!
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Strap Yourselves In
I also prefer the waterchip urgency
Yes. F1 main quest is so nicely implemented. That urgency was a cherry atop the overall dire atmosphere of the first game. I am sure we are not going to see anything even closely as gorgeous as f1.
:negative:

Neira is in Nashkell, Karlat is in Beregost.
You better be trolling.
 

Varnaan

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Pretty good point that it's not even your life in danger in BG2, a lot of people found imoen to be annoying. :lol:
That's another can of worms, the entire Imoen thing is so convoluted and in such total dissonance with the first game (furthered by the fact that you can import your character but not the state of the game/world from BG) that in my opinion it was the first instance of the slippery slope of Bioware hack writing that would find its logical conclusion with the Mass Effect 3 ending.
 

Varnaan

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Dude, watching out for the occasional assassin is nothing compared to having a ball in the Athkatla-side-quest-carnival while your foster sister is busy being kidnapped.
This reminds me of a thought I always had but never really looked into, in BG2 is it possible to pay the 20 000 gold upfront and bypass that part of the first act ?
 

copebot

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The fake urgency is what they call a 'hook' and it is supposed to make the player more engaged in the plot. For me, it's more like I'm being dragged into reading a novel that I didn't sign up for, especially because the whole point of Dungeons and Dragons is that you get to define your own character. Then, immediately after you define your character, some shithead writer is instead insisting that they redefine your character for you. Oh, you thought you were going to play a thief with a heart of gold? No, sorry, you have to save the world and your whole existence is now defined by a parasite in your head. You wanted to play an ambitious and callous wizard driven to master the magic of time at all costs? Doesn't matter, your whole character is defined by a parasitical infection that involves tons of overwritten nonsense. You wanted to play a paladin driven to redeem the honor of his family after a terrible crime? Doesn't matter, the parasite is your character now or you have to save your stepsister Imoen and your whole backstory has been written by the writers and not by you.

In P&P 'hooks' are supposed to be written by the players and then used by the DM, and people tend to have mixed feelings about it. But in the case of games like BG2 and BG3 the only things you get to define are your player character's abilities and the game just sort of ignores anything else you do because of the limitations of the design. What's even the point of allowing a player defined character if the game is going to define your character's priorities anyway?
Well, it's not like in BG1 you're free to decide your character's backstory. Sure, you can decide where to go first and what to do, but so do you in BG2 and 3.

Now that I think about it my issue may stem from the fact that BG3 is a low level adventure but from the start it feels like a high level narrative.
I guess it's a sort of dissonnance that can't really be avoided when the plot centers about Illithids and starting a news adventure at level 10 or somethign would feel weird and cumbersome as the game has different systems from BG1 & 2 but it kinda rubs me the wrong way.
Now wait for rusty to explain to you that the beginning of BG1 isn't any less epic than that of BG3.

Yeah BG1 has the same issue but the plot is so bare that it doesn't grate as much. You cannot make meaningful decisions in BG1 apart from how you handle combat and in what order you clear areas.
 

Varnaan

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Yeah BG1 has the same issue but the plot is so bare that it doesn't grate as much. You cannot make meaningful decisions in BG1 apart from how you handle combat and in what order you clear areas.
I think this speaks volume about the importance of not overloading the player (and/or the game) with """"""epicness"""""" early on.
The first part of BG in my opinion is a masterpiece(maybe the word is too strong) because as far as the player knows it's all a blank slate, and he is free to build his party without pre-conceived idea or ulterior motive, based on personalities, or classes, etc..., sometimes with consequences.

I think having party members threaten to, and sometimes leaving, because you don't align with their own urgency, or beating the crap out of each others, in this newfound open environment is really nice.
 

Harthwain

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And it's ironic because I also prefer the waterchip urgency in the first Fallout game to the les defined quest for the GECK of Fallout 2.
In Fallout 2 you're told you need to find the G.E.C.K., otherwise your village will not survive. And there is a time limit. It's long, but it makes sense in the context of the issue (essentially people trying to live on an irradiated, infertile soil). So I don't agree Fallout 2 doesn't have the sense of urgency.
 

Varnaan

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And it's ironic because I also prefer the waterchip urgency in the first Fallout game to the les defined quest for the GECK of Fallout 2.
In Fallout 2 you're told you need to find the G.E.C.K., otherwise your village will not survive. And there is a time limit. It's long, but it makes sense in the context of the issue (essentially people trying to live on an irradiated, infertile soil). So I don't agree Fallout 2 doesn't have the sense of urgency.
150 days vs 13 years is not even on the same scale in my opinion.
 

ScrotumBroth

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
BG1 is the peak that will never be eclipsed. Problem with devs today is arrogance and lack of imagination/vision. It probably also has to do with millennial lack of attention span and patience for a slow build up.
 

Harthwain

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150 days vs 13 years is not even on the same scale in my opinion.
Sure, 150 days is less than 13 years, but Fallout 2 is bigger, so it makes sense that you are given more time to explore an expansive world (it's so big, in fact, that it really helps to make a car operational again, because it saves you time travelling from one place to another).
 

Varnaan

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150 days vs 13 years is not even on the same scale in my opinion.
Sure, 150 days is less than 13 years, but Fallout 2 is bigger, so it makes sense that you are given more time to explore a vast world (so big, in fact, that it really helps to make a car operational again).
That's a fact, however my original point was just that there is no real urgency in Fallout 2 compared to Fallout, it's not a critique of the game or any other aspect, it's just that Fallout tells you we're all dead in 150 days if you don't get the water chip, while Fallout 2 tells you "it would be nice if you get us a GECK before you die of old age".
 

jackofshadows

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150 days vs 13 years is not even on the same scale in my opinion.
I'd prefer Fallout 2 had 1 year time limit but after failing it the game wouldn't end and instead there would be some grim alternative ending.
 
Last edited:

copebot

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BG1 is a testament to the effectiveness of minimalism because people will project all kinds of stuff onto what is a simple adaptation of pen and paper content ported into a completely unsuitable kludge of an engine that was retrofitted from a late-90s RTS project. There is barely any dialogue compared to any modern narrative game. There is probably more spoken and written dialogue in a two or three Greek islands of Assassin's Creed Odyssey than in all of BG1 put together, and certainly fewer plot branches. This light framework actually makes the game better and more re-playable. People also tend to misremember BG1 as having a lot more narrative content than it actually does. If you load up Beregost right now, you will really have to hunt to find any dialogue at all from any of the NPCs, and the few quests that exist are mostly less complex than a typical snoozer World Quest from modern World of Warcraft. Probably the only consequential quest content is being able to make armor out of Ankheg shells, and even that is almost like a secret more than it is narrative content.

Imagination fills in the gaps when most of the storytelling is environmental or naturally emerges from the gameplay.
 

Varnaan

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BG1 is a testament to the effectiveness of minimalism because people will project all kinds of stuff onto what is a simple adaptation of pen and paper content ported into a completely unsuitable kludge of an engine that was retrofitted from a late-90s RTS project. There is barely any dialogue compared to any modern narrative game. There is probably more spoken and written dialogue in a two or three Greek islands of Assassin's Creed Odyssey than in all of BG1 put together, and certainly fewer plot branches. This light framework actually makes the game better and more re-playable. People also tend to misremember BG1 as having a lot more narrative content than it actually does. If you load up Beregost right now, you will really have to hunt to find any dialogue at all from any of the NPCs, and the few quests that exist are mostly less complex than a typical snoozer World Quest from modern World of Warcraft. Probably the only consequential quest content is being able to make armor out of Ankheg shells, and even that is almost like a secret more than it is narrative content.

Imagination fills in the gaps when most of the storytelling is environmental or naturally emerges from the gameplay.
That's why BG is arguably better than BG2 and I will awlays use it as the prime example of proper low level D&D videogame. The world is vast, the writing is focused, and the focus for a large part of the game is on the party. The narrative backdrop only takes prominence when you engage with it, and you are encouraged to do so (for example to stop the iron crisis and your weapons breaking at the worst of times) but at your own pace.
It's good game design in practice.
 

Harthwain

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while Fallout 2 tells you "it would be nice if you get us a GECK before you die of old age".
Again, I have to disagree. Yes, you are not given an exact time frame. All you are told is: "We are dying, save us, Chosen One". But you do keep getting calls from Hakunin, who tells you to hurry up, because things are getting worse. And if you still decide to ignore it and reach the time limit, you are going to get "The End" cutscene, which is another way to spell "Game Over". So the game DOES try to warn you, multiple times, that the end is approaching.
 

Varnaan

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while Fallout 2 tells you "it would be nice if you get us a GECK before you die of old age".
Again, I have to disagree. Yes, you are not given an exact time frame. All you are told is: "We are dying, save us, Chosen One". But you do keep getting calls from Hakunin, who tells you to hurry up, because things are getting worse. And if you still decide to ignore it and reach the time limit, you are going to get "The End" cutscene, which is another way to spell "Game Over". So the game DOES try to warn you, multiple times, that the end is approaching.

as jackofshadows said here
150 days vs 13 years is not even on the same scale in my opinion.
I'd prefer Fallout 2 had 1 year time limit but after failing it the game wouldn't end but instead there would be some grim alternative ending.
I think the time limit should have been more constraining but not result in a game over.
 

DeepOcean

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And it's ironic because I also prefer the waterchip urgency in the first Fallout game to the les defined quest for the GECK of Fallout 2.
In Fallout 2 you're told you need to find the G.E.C.K., otherwise your village will not survive. And there is a time limit. It's long, but it makes sense in the context of the issue (essentially people trying to live on an irradiated, infertile soil). So I don't agree Fallout 2 doesn't have the sense of urgency.
Machanically wise, the Fallout 1 time limit was better, narrative wise, Fallout 2 time limit made more sense. If the Vault only really had 150 days, the Overseer would be in panic mode and and would be arranging all the resources of the Vault to find a water chip, not only sending a single dude. 150 days isnt a long time what doesnt make sense but it is great to create real urgency and a feeling of a ominous threat what was great on a post apocalyptic game.

Fallout 2 quest for the GECK sound more like an coming of age quest, the village is slowly dying and they dont have the knowledge and resources of the vault to do anything about it so any desperate measure like waiting for a miracle is all they have. However, it makes sense they arent dying in 150 days, they should be alot more worried than just sending a lone guy on a very improbable fetch quest if they were to die in six months.
 

Mebrilia the Viera Queen

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I like how people bash the singing of this game where you have games with stuff like this and nobody complains.
 

Thal

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I suspect that BG1 also benefited massively from the preceding pen-and-paper campaign ran by James Ohlen. A lot of concepts and characters were fleshed out and tested before the game entered production, which is why the game just works. Characters such as Minsc and Edwin are memorable despite having only a handful of lines. Now compare this to the absolutely stupid 24h time limit Sawyer was given to develop the first story draft for IWD2. And didn't something similar happen with Pillars 1 too, which is why the souls angle was the best thing they could come up with?
 

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